How are Online Media Sites surviving?

[defense]

@flaystus...I see where you are disputing the term "TRUE" 4x but your reasoning behind it is wrong. First, as far as the Sony burners go...i'm not talking about the few seconds prior to burning...I know all burners...cd burners included, do that....the Sony burners have an ability to detect the safest maximum burn speed for each type of media. It detects the media and i'm no expert...but i've read up on this...as well as had a discussion with another seasoned poster about this....the Sony burners when going though the whole power calibration process make the determination BEFORE the burn process starts, at the "initialization" what the "SAFEST" maximum speed to burn the media in the drive is. Pioneer burners DO NOT do this.

Now, as far as the media goes....when you say having a disk which WILL NOT BURN @4x in 6 out of 7 drives, but is "listed" as 4x, you are once again Wrong. I'm sorry man...your just wrong..plain and simple..this is just fact. You know why it is fact? Because all of those disks which I mentioned are NOT OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED 4X DISKS....so they are FAKE 4X disks...NOT TRUE 4x disks.... PHONY 4x disks...take whatever term you like best....but they are NOT 4x disks. Plain and simple! You take the disks I mentioned above at the incredibley low price of $1.20 a disk ...and those my friend ARE CERTIFIED 4X DISKS.

According to you I can take my 2x media and put it online and advertise it as 4x media and I'd be correct. Essentially that is what these online sites are doing because they are WELL AWARE their media is PHONY 4X media...but they are taking advantage of people! They list the media as 4x because they can legally because one out of 10 may burn @4x...but that's just NOT 4X!

That's like purchasing a Ferreri that goes 220mph on the gauge...but when you drive it on the autobahn 10 times at maximum speed....only 2 of those times are you able to get 220 mph.....the other 8, you can only go 170 mph MAX because of some "glitch" in the fuel system....if that is the case....you are NOT getting what you paid for....so you aren't getting the FERRERI you thought you were getting...well the same is true here....these 4x disks are NOT OFFICIALLY 4X....if you like NON OFFICIAL better then "NOT TRUE"....when it's the same thing...then that is fine by me...but once again...These are the facts.

[Faustus]

This can be cleared up easy. Tell me how they are Fake disc? why are they not in trouble? Are they being sued? Is the DVD Forum put out a statement about them? If not then as long as they are designed as 4x then they are 4x even if they are not very good at it.

As far as the Sony disc test, if anyone has any links talking about this I'd like to see them. If its somehow testing the disc then because it from moment to moment varies by quality of that part of the disc then the thing would have to read the ENTIRE blank disc to determine if the media is good. Maybe I'm missing something here, and maybe I'm tired cause the first scentence of this paragraph looks like gibberish now... anyway if anyone has some facts I'd love some linkage.

[Faustus]

As to your car comparison, yes its the one you thought you were getting, it just you got a car that sucks and has a glitchy system. The disc are not unoffical that I can find anywhere, they just are not always good at what they do.

[defense]

flaystus, i'm gonna end this now by posting links. I'm sorry man, but in this case your just dead wrong and i'm gonna prove it.

If you want me to post links verifying the Sony burners pre-burn process, I will be more then happy to do so. For right now, i'm gonna give you some "facts" to back my "factual" statements.

First, let me comment on the reason these online sites are not being suedt. First, the reason they aren't being sued is because they are being MISLEADING AND DECEPTIVE, but they are doing so "LEGALLY." Barely legal, but legal. For example...you take a disk which is NOT CERTIFIED @4X and you market it as 4x. THIS IS DECEPTIVE...however, IF THE ONLINE SITE CAN AT LEAST GET ONE OF THEM to burn @4x, they can say they disks are 4x. It's dead wrong because they know MOST OF THEM WILL BURN @2X, but they don't care. It's about the benjamins to these online sites....you take SHOP4TECH for example...they were CLAIMING TO HAVE "TRUE 4X" media by SPEEDY/MATRIX....but after I tested several of them and posted back....I saw that they tested those disks on 7 different players, ONLY ONE OF THE PIONEER PLAYERS BURNED THOSE DISKS @4X and did so WITH HACKED FIRMWARE...LMAO.....that's not TRUE 4X BY ANY MEANS!

Other disks such as the 4X ACCU or Prime disks MERITLINE SELLS ARE ALSO "NOT" TRUE 4X DISKS....AND GUESS WHAT....MERITLINE MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO MENTION OF "TRUE' OR "CERTIFIED 4X" DISKS REGARDING THE PRIMES OR ACCU'S!

And here is a copy of a quote from Meritline's site which explains that these ACCU disks will NOT BURN @2X for many. Also check out the link i've posted so you can read the description of these "4X" DISKS! I commend meritline for posting HONESTLY on their site that these disks have issues for many and NOWHERE do they claim they are "CERTIFIED" 4x disks.

Here's the meritline quote on the ACCU 4x media:

While some customers report they can burn this media at 4X speed with Sony DRU 500A burners, some customers report they can only burn at 2X. Your mileage may vary.

Here's a link to the ACCU disks:

http://www.meritline.com/neac1x2x4xdv.html

Now if you read that quote off of meritlines site...you will see them THEN give you links to several other types of "CERTIFIED" 4X MEDIA directly below the information. When you click on ANY of the quotes..such as the "meritline 4x media" YOU WILL see the description of the MERITLINE MEDIA SAYS "CERTIFIED" 4X DISKS. CERTIFIED MEANS LEGIT MY FRIEND...that means your getting what you pay for...that means if these disks were that FERRERI...then you're guaranteed 220 mph EACH AND EVERY TIME you max it out.

You starting to understand now?

You think that meritline just forgot to put the word "CERTIFIED" next to the ACCU 4X disks? LMAO....not quite....they know the disks are NOT TRUE 4X disks....they know that writing the disks @4x can cause issues because they are not CERTIFIED 4X DISKS, and because they know all of this they don't make representation that they are OFFICIALLY 4X disks....and that is why they are the cheapest DISKS on their website. The same holds true for the Prime disks.

[Faustus]

I'm not one to argue in light of facts, but I do tend to ask questions. Part of what makes the internet so bad sometimes is people who will never admit that they may indeed be wrong.

I'd like to know who is Certifing them? I would "assume" its the DVDforum, but as with all things advertised we really do not know. Either Way according to the info on meritline you do have a point if its true that the forum itself CERTIFIED them and not others. However not knowing the full facts I could also see meritline using such a statement to show which disc they have the most faith in working properly for their customers. On the final hand this does not hold true for every disc online, just a few from what I see.

If indeed they are certified by the forum, then really what does that mean if I with my burner can get them and burn at 4x with no noticeable issue, yet you cannot? Does it make it less of a 4x disc to me? Not really. Does it affect my decision to buy them? Perhaps unless the price is to cheap to pass up after all it works for me right? Of course not all online stores bother to to mention if something is Certified, which would bring the question of how to really tell if it does indeed mean anything, and I'm surely not going to pay standard retail prices to know for sure while knowing that other brands have worked great in the past.


And YES I'd like some links to reliable info about the Sony burner thing I find it interesting that if true I never heard it before until know. I'd also like to know how its done because the only ways I could think of would either be wasteful or take up to much time. How long does this check take?

[Faustus]

One last note then I'm done with the thread other then looking at info. I notice that RIMA.com even says that the DupEZ 4x may not always burn at 4x with the Sony buner, says it depends on the computer. Is it depending onthe computer? or on the batch of media? Cause if something that checks the quality burns at 4x sometimes for some people thats one thing. But if the result is consistant for you but not for others then perhaps its not the medias fault at all but indeed the computers and burners problem.

I still think calling them "True 4x" is a bad idea, when the meaning behind "CERTIFIED" is found out then that would be the correct term, it doesn't help to create confusion by using several terms for the same exact thing. Heck we already have 2+ standards to confuse things.

[defense]

@flaystus, I knew if someone would be man enough to admit they were wrong or incorrectly informed...it would be you...so i'm glad you didn't try to B.S. Now, as far as the disks being certified...I have to find an article which I think best suits the exact definition..but to my knowledge it has nothing to do with the dvd forum. The dvd forum is strictly for the types of media it considers official...and I don't believe DVD+R is even considered "official" however, we know how truly compatible that is.


Now, as for the Rima DupeZ which say "MAY NOT" burn @4x with the Sony burners....I just posted "one" example...i'm glad rima also stepped to the plate and came forward with that information as opposed to misleading consumers. There ARE some other sites I won't mention which DON'T let the consumers know the disks are Not Certified 4x disks...and that is what is sad. Just so you know..those DupeZ disks At Rima are the same exact LD disks being sold at meritline. So whichever disks are less expensive would be the best purchase there. They are Both "LD" and although some of the 1-2x LD disks had a manufacturer of LD and Sony, depending on the plant....NONE of the 4x disks..whether at Rima or at meritline have a Sony manufacturer ID. Anyway, the point is that those disks are "LD" and although they burn quite nicely....they just aren't Official 4x disks.

There are TWO WAYS in which disks can basically be tagged "PHONY" or "FAKE" 4x disks. One of the ways is as you said....ONLY certain burners will burn the disks @ 4x. The problem with the disks I mentioned though is that because they aren't true 4x disks...the likelihood of having some type of burn problem or playback problem significantly increases.

The second way disks can be phony 4x disks is that in ANY burner they MAY OR MAY not burn @4x. Meaning that SOME of the disks in the spindle WILL burn @4x, while others willl not burn @4x. You can PM Disturbed1 on this if you'd like, and he'll give you some ratios of which disks burn @4x and how often. I believe with his Pioneer drives he got the LD 4x disks to burn @4x about 50% of the time. My ratio with my Sony burner unfortunately was about 25% of the time. If a person is PAYING for 4x media and getting those types of ratios....they are just getting screwed, plain and simple. That's why it is important for people to understand the difference between these types of media being sold online as "4x" which seem enticing.....but what people REALLY need to be on the lookout for is "CERTIFIED" 4x media.

Now, I will get the best article I can find on the entire "certification" process....but it is very stringent and only the highest of quality disks which burn CONSISTENTLY at the specified speed whether it be 2x or 4x or 2.4x are certified. That's why I pointed out, right under the spot on the meritline forum where it said that piece about not burning consistently @4x blah blah blah....the three links there will take you to media which IS 4X CERTIFIED...and of course which costs more $$$$ for a reason.

And that was the basis of this post here to begin with. To make people aware that there are much better options NOW then buying online. Another poster a few posts back hit it on the head. The retail stores have considerably decreased their DVD media prices...while the online stores have remained the same. I was buying my media online since November for the most part....but things have changed. Why in the hell would I buy a Prime disk or a ACCU 4x disk for $1.15 a piece which is crap compared to a certified say MEMOREX RICOH DVD+R 4x disk which will give me consistent 4x burns each time? I'd be a fool to purchase any disks online unless the price was appealing...and even then...why would I want disks which claim to be 4x but then the site tells you it's maybe or maybe not? lol....You don't see that on the TDK, VERBATIM, MAXELL, MEMOREX... certified 4x media...you see certified 4x meaning we don't give two shits what burner you have...if it's a 4x burner your disks WILL BURN @4X with the proper firmware....all of the other stuff on these online sites is just garbage.

And as far as the Sony information goes....I will get a detailed link for you on that as well. Just so you understand...it's an excellent feature and I can assure you that it has had to of saved me several coasters with this "fake" 4x media thus far. I am no expert on the technicalities of a DVD burner...but I know enough because of what I have researched and read. I posted a thread about if these Sony burners could possibly have a firmware upgrade to burn @8x. The answer was that it takes more power and a more powerful laser to burn @8x so the answer was no.

And basically, from what I was told and read...the process of these Sony burners is like this.

Each piece of media has a write structure and before all media is burned it is analyzed quickly....not NEARLY AS TIME consuming as you are thinking. We are talking about seconds here. It takes that structure and determines the safest maximum speed to burn that piece of media at. There is a lead-in and the information is continuously being sent to the burner....basically the first 3 minutes are the "TRUE" initialzation of a specific piece of media...and that will determine what speed the media gets burned at. For certified media..say those TDK DVD-R 4x....the Sony burner would get the information and realize that it could burn the disk SAFELY @4x. However, if the disk, like the ACCU or Matrix for example can NOT be safely burned @4x ..the Sony burners will downgrade the burning speed to 2x.

This has been mentioned several times by people, of course they have no clue why this happens in most cases. But I am explaining why it happens.
They usually think it's their burner...but they are wrong. If they used Official 4x media, they wouldn't have that problem. So basically the information is always being processed quickly before being burned....it also takes MORE POWER TO BURN @4x then it does @2x. I believe twice as much power. So when the Sony burners are analyzing the media...the burner is going through the power calibration and using the proper amount of power for the burn. If the burn is going to be @2x the laser will burn at a lower power..and vice versa.

Again, this is a basic explanation....it gets much more complex and I will find info on this and post it. Hopefully this clears some things up...and hopefully more people get a better understanding of their options with media so they don't get ripped off.

[defense]

@flaystus...it looks like you are right....at least in part...It appears the DVD FORUM does certify media. Here is a quote from an article I found.

*Since 2x is not a certified standard by DVD Forum (the founder of DVD-R), DVD Forum only certifies 1x and 4x as a standard. Thus, the ability of burning a DVD-R at 2x is totally up to your DVD-R/RW DRIVE to decide. Please contact your DVD-R/RW DRIVE manufacture for more information about whether such DVD-R/RW DRIVE can burn this 1x media at 2x speed. As of now, we only know certain models of DVD-R/RW DRIVE will be able to burn RITEK 1x Certified Media at 2x and most of them has to update to the latest firmware.

There is more to the certification process then this...I will post it later...now i'm going to get some sleep. Interesting that they don't certify 2x media though...don't know what the deal with that is.

[mkelley]

I'll head back to the original poster's point (what a concept -- actually posting on topic :>) and say that I also agree with him: it's rather amazing online disk sellers are remaining successful.

When I first started DVDR (about two years ago) online was the only way to go. I think what has happened even in just the last couple of months or so is we've seen an explosion in the personal DVD burner business. My local Target, for example, which never carried DVDR has now suddenly got a slew of brands and quantities. I used to have to drive over 40 miles to get to the nearest store that even carried DVDR -- even our computer store in town didn't carry them. Now they are even at Walmart!

And, yes, for the last few months sales have abounded -- I've bought enough media to last me to the end of the year, all quality stuff that I would have paid more than $2 per piece if I had bought it online, and all bought for $1.50 or less. I didn't really even have to try -- there was a sale every other week or so and I stocked up, and yes, it did help that I had a dual burner and could pick either + or - but there was enough media of either type that it wouldn't have been hard to stock up on just one.

I suspect this is due to two factors: stores wanting to convince you they are the place to get *all* your media (now that it's a commodity) and manufactuers gearing up big runs of this stuff due to demand.

The online stores can't react as fast to these changing prices because (I suspect) they have a large stock of stuff they need to unload. By the end of the year we should see a more level playing field. I also think DVDR prices will have leveled off in general: we won't see the special sales by local stores but we will see prices settle down to around $1.50 a piece for quality media. At that time the online stores need to have their prices adjusted accordingly or they truly will go out of business.

Obviously, all IMHO.

[Faustus]

I can explain the 2x thing no problem. 2x DVD-R burning is a standard that Pioneer created because they were unwilling to wait for the DVDForum to create their own. It however basicly became standard because the forum just let it pass until 4x became the next big thing, that time they acted more promptly.