I need your opinions - on capturing TV in avi or mpeg2

[tommyoz]

I can't seem to decide which is best. My ultimate goal is to put the finish product on DVD. I don't care for VCD or SVCD or anything else like that.
I have been TV capturing in AVI format with huffy codec and ATI AIW 8500DV card. I was getting tired of all the encoding time to mpeg2. Even though I have a few fast machines (P4 2.5ghz, 1gb of memory & AMD athlon 2.5ghz, 1gb of memory).

I was curious about mpeg2 capturing and am using Hauppauge pvr250. They both look pretty damn good. The only problem I see with Mpeg2 capturing is having to edit an mpeg2 file. With AVI capturing it's so much easier with VDub but then I have to encode and wait.

Basically, What do you experts think? Should i stick with AVI or change to Mpeg2 capturing? Will it always be better to cap in AVI? or are things better now with Mpeg2 capping? Will I be missing out if I change or am I missing out already? Your response is greatly appreciated. Thanks

[housepig]

I'm no expert, but I think you should let your eyes be the judge - I'd like to capture direct to mpeg, but my captures look significantly better if I capture to avi and go the long way around with encoding.

but if the mpeg captures on your machine look good, why not? you don't win any brownie points for making it harder on yourself...

[thefox149]

I always cap to AVI....it is a much easier and workable format. Ok the file size are huge but you can edit alot better. Have you experimented with capping to divx..at least in the interim you can archive them and later convert them to you DVD needs .....by the sounds of your machines you could easily handle it and the compression is great....I have known a guy who downloads xvid which looks amazing then he converts them to mpeg at a later or as need basis.....I think he caps to divx as well I will ask him....while I am at it I will tell him that his actions are illegal.....

[ZippyP.]

..I have known a guy who downloads xvid which looks amazing then he converts them to mpeg at a later or as need basis.....I think he caps to divx as well I will ask him....while I am at it I will tell him that his actions are illegal.....

An alter ego of yours perhaps?

[snowmoon]

I cap in .avi and then filter and encode later. It only takes me a few minutes to set up the encode.... 2.4 GHZ would be nice I'm at 800 and it takes me 2.5minutes for each minute of input video to encode.

[likwid8]

I think you should just capture in .AVI and keep it that way... you see, when you capture to MPEG2, u then have to convert it again to an MPEG which loses quality, I am not saying you lose quality when you do it with AVI but when u cap in MPEG stream is does already the decoding for you in MPEG... Im my own opinions I've tried both, and yes they look the same but AVI has its advantages. Im also no expert so you do what you think is best. you heard mine, and you heard the others...now its up to you.

[mastersmurfie]

I'm no "expert"...but I have been using my ATI AIW 128 PRO (very OLD card) and capping directly to MPEG-2 using one of the default settings in MMC 7.7. Once in a while I get dropped frames (usually when I forget that email is still going), but mostly no dropped frames, and the quality-I can't tell the diff from AVI caps and MPEG-2 caps-is just as good as the original. I mostly capture from VHS and TV. MPEG-2 is better for me cause I don't like the HUGE AVI file size, and I can capture then edit out commercials (if needed) then author and burn...don't have to wait to convert from AVI to MPEG-2...

Also, MPEG-2 is DVD compliant, so no need to reencode...

Just my opinion, but use your own judgement...if you think AVI "looks" better, then continue to use it...but try MPEG-2-see what you think...

[housepig]

when you capture to MPEG2, u then have to convert it again to an MPEG which loses quality

why would you convert again? It's already a dvd-compliant file.

[mgh]

Answer is MPEG2 if
1. You have a PC fast enough to capture to mpeg2 at a min avg 6000 kbps
2. You are lucky enough that the Btwincap drivers support your card and you can correctly identify the tuner or you are able to make them work for you using other methods provided at the sourceforge site.
3. The specific channel you want to capture from is clean so that the video doesn't need editing(except removal of ads or unwanted parts-very easy with TMPGEnc MPEG Tools)
4. You have one of the ULead software which can capture (e.g. Moviefactory) or any other decent software for MPEG2 capture..

Answer is AVI if you do not meet anyone of the above 4 conditions.
If you can use the Btwincap drivers-install the WDM Wrapper (available through Tools section). Use preview mode in Virtualdub (Overlay is not supported)-configure Video Format and Source- use the TV Tuner in the source dialogue box to configure your tuner and select the channel- Select audio(PCM only) and video compression. You can capture to any resolution you want if Your PC specs permit!!

BTW I also have a Bt 878 based card- have dual boot 98 and XP- both with Btwincap drivers and Wrapper installed. Am capturing at 720x576 resolution in both 98 and XP with Virtualdub with a MJPEG codec-absolutely no problem-same with ULEAD DVD Moviefactory for MPEG2.
I have tested Virtualdub with VFW drivers and with the Btwincapdrivers with wrapper. There is no difference in CPU usage-the wrapper does not introduce extra overhead

[likwid8]

when you capture to MPEG2, u then have to convert it again to an MPEG which loses quality

why would you convert again? It's already a dvd-compliant file.

Because you have to re-encode the mpeg to a higher bitrate for it to be DVD compliant

But then again, Im prob wrong since im thinking you can only cap MPEG-2 as SVCD and I didnt know u can cap MPEG2 with 6000 bitrate.............BAH I never used MPEG2 but all i know is that AVI served a big rile in quality wise

[housepig]

But then again, Im prob wrong since im thinking you can only cap MPEG-2 as SVCD and I didnt know u can cap MPEG2 with 6000 bitrate

correct - I just captured a couple of movies last night direct to dvd-compliant mpeg-2, using NeoDVD and an Aver EZ DVDmaker card.

[mgh]

The quality of the capture is governed by the quality of your drivers and the channel which you are capturing. If either or both are not good enough, you need to "clean the video"-avi is the best option.
The Btwincap drivers for cards based on Bt 8x series chips are just superb
providedyou can get them to work for your card. It is not easy-but it is very much worth the effort. Visit the site
http://btwincap.sourceforge.net
It has all the details.
If the channel is clean, there is no need to re-encode. The video quality of my mpeg2 captures from such channels is indistuinguishable from DVDs
Saves me lots of time.

[Gazorgan]

The BTWINCAP drivers are NOT universal, some cards think they are now PAL only in an NTSC homeland.

I have litterally 1000's of hours of captures. Huffyuv or mjpeg for the codec depending on channel quality and how much I'm doing. A 12 hour marathon has to be MJPEG...I don't have TB drives :P

Edit, filter, and resize it. Then it goes XviD or MPEG depending on how I want to watch it. Quality is always better than VHS, and sometimes hard to tell from DVD versions (like the Soprano's, something you can do a side-by-side comparison against)

[pixel]

I also have an ATI AIW 8500DV. I choose to capture in MPEG 2 at high bitrates and then transode to lower bitrates for DVD's. I don't mind waiting for the re-encoding as it does it in almost realtime or faster. The real-time captures can stand up to the re-encdoded with my 2.4GHz (533MHz) P4. There is a slight fluctuation in the difference of quality but if you are only putting up to about 4/5 hours on a DVD the difference is almost unnoticable. If you decide to do real-time mpeg 2 capture try out the real-time filters in MMC 8.1

I have tried capping in avi but i get too many dropped frames and my HD drive space is insufficient for the amount of video i capture at once.

BTW: Try out Lordsmurf's all in one guide. It's hard to beat:

http://www.lordsmurf.com

[ImaWeTodd]

Captue in AVI

1. Easier to Cut/Join
2. Lets you post capture filter
3. Turn your sound into AC3 (you could still do this with mpeg cap, but what's the point of using mpeg if you are going to mess with the files anyway)
4. Let's you change your mind (bitrate, filters, sound, interlace, etc) with few penalties

Get a faster encoder. MainConcept will do an hour show of D1 material on your machine in 25 minutes.


On the other hand: Sometimes I wish I had a replayTV

[pixel]

Captue in AVI

1. Easier to Cut/Join
2. Lets you post capture filter
3. Turn your sound into AC3 (you could still do this with mpeg cap, but what's the point of using mpeg if you are going to mess with the files anyway)
4. Let's you change your mind (bitrate, filters, sound, interlace, etc) with few penalties

Get a faster encoder. MainConcept will do an hour show of D1 material on your machine in 25 minutes.




On the other hand: Sometimes I wish I had a replayTV

Thanks for that info. I'll really have 2 try that. The fastest I can currently go at is 1/2 the length of my movie/show and thats for 352x288!

Would you suggest using the PicVideo MJPEG Codec or the HUFFYUV Codec? (I've tried using the HUFFYUV codec before but seem to get a lot of dropped frames, however I have never actually tried the MJPEG Codec. I also have a capture drive of only 80GB if that helps. I use another drive for encoding so its just capture file size that bothers me and I usually capture around 6hrs at once)

[tommyoz]

Wow! I posted last night and checked in this evening and found many replies. Thanks to all for responding.

It appears like the majority says to stick with AVI capturing. I really don't have any problems with capturing in AVI or Mpeg2 (DVD) like some mentioned. I don't have problems with dropped frames or audio/video sync. Computer speed, memory or hard drive space are non issues for me as well. I don't have to rencode or convert the Mpeg2 files files either.
I just edit, author and burn. Editing Mpeg2 (DVD) files are a pain though.
Like some also said AVI files are easier to handle. The only thing is time.
I guess I have to determine if i'd rather sit by the computer and edit Mpeg2 files or set it up to convert the AVI files and leave for about 2 hours. I do use mainconcept encoder and with the speed of my machines I have cut down on the encoding time considerably. What use to take me 8 hours now takes about 2 and a half hours.

According to mgh I have what it takes to cap in Mpeg2 (DVD). I was just wondering if mechanicaly AVI is still the best way to capture? or is there not a proper way? It's all up to me?

[housepig]

is there not a proper way? It's all up to me?

correct.

if you find a way that works for you, even if it's totally different than every suggestion you've recieved, you still have a way that works for you.

If you get the quality and ease of use you want capping to mpeg, do it. If you need more flexibility or quality control, cap to avi and encode.

but there is no "right way"... you're going to watch it - if you like the quality, stick with what you are doing.

[Nelson37]

It's all a matter of personal preference. Cap to MPG2 can be indistinguishable from AVI, though it needs re-encoding, at 25% the file size. Mpeg2 is also only slightly more difficult to edit than AVI. VDUB for time marks and TMPGenc to cut.

Getting real-time DVD-ready caps is certainly quite possible, with quality very close if not equal to a re-encoded AVI. Real-time CVD or SVCD is much more difficult, though doable. I have yet to create a decent real-time VCD, but I almost never use this format, anyway.

[housepig]

Cap to MPG2 can be indistinguishable from AVI, though it needs re-encoding, at 25% the file size.

again I ask... why are we reencoding an mpeg-2 if the destination is a dvd?

[Craig Tucker]

To get the best there is always a price to pay, as you have found in this case it is encoding time. The way you are doing it, capturing to avi with huffy compression and then converting will give the best results. Capturing to mpeg2 should still give good result but a lot quicker. You need to decide whether the extra picture quality is worth he extra time taken to achieve the finished article.

[FOO]

I have been doing this a long time and the thrill is gone for doing
it the hard way. I capture lots of movies from the cable TV and
I think that in my case it's not worth the time to get AVIs and encode
because the video is not that good to start with. Most of the time I
capture MPG2 and edit commercials out and author. It's easy
I used to use TMPGenc to edit but it is not accurate, I now use
Womble MPEG2VCR which is frame accurate ( you can cut inside GOPs)
and much faster.

I will say for special cases I still get MJPEGs so I can kill the logos
possibly filter, and encode the maximum amount that will fit.

[drfreako]

I am definately not an expert, but i was pulling my hair out trying to get cature to work for me. I have a 1.6A P4 oc'd to 2.11ghz and 512mb ram. I was desperately seeking a way edit mpeg2 files to revove commercials. Capping at full dvd quality mpeg 2 looks great on my machine, but the trick was to get all the fluff out. I tried TmpgEnc but had sync problems when joining the parts back together. I also at the time had little hdd space for storing huffy encoded avi. Anyways, i finally found a virtualdub mod that allows you to open mpeg2 in vdub. This is the only place i could find that still has it --- http://www.backupdvd.info/Capture/VirtualDubMpg2_16102002.rar )
It was like a gift from the Gods! I decided to use WinDVD Recorder to capture the mpeg2. The I opened the cap in vdub-mpeg2 and edited all the commercials out. YOu can then ann filters or whatever. Then FRAMESERVE it to TMpgEnc to encode to SVCD. I havent tried thid method to make DVD quality stuff yet, SVCD is perfect for me. I have an APEX 5131 that plays mpeg files burned in iso or UDF mode. No Authoring required.....
Anyways, my method will allow me to get as many as 5 45-50 minute episodes on one DVD.
I hope this info is useful

Peace - Dr|F

[FOO]

Like i said, you don't have to re-encode.
MPG2VCR cuts multiple selections out
in one pass (about 5 minutes for 4 Gig capture)
Unlike in TMPGenc it really no shit cuts where you tell
it down to the frame.
I made a MPG2 video where all the frames displayed
the frame number and tested it.

What I used to do is open the MPG2 in Vdub and find the cut points
and then type the time codes into TMPGenc to cut. That gets
within 1 GOP or 15 - 18 frames 1/2 sec.

I just got tired of waiting for the 5-6 hoour encodes.

[Nelson37]

To clarify the two distinct types of Mpeg-2 capture, you can go with full DVD, CVD, SVCD, (or any x-variant) compliance for immediate edit and burn, OR you can cap at high-bitrate (8000 to 15000), I-frame only, and then edit but you MUST re-encode. The second method gives a file equal to, or very nearly, in quality to an uncompressed or Huffy AVI file for about 25% of the size. This is useful for limited space and/or multiple captures.

I've done both, and am still working on minimizing the quality trade-off for real-time encoding. It's a challenge, like getting AC-3 capture to work. But it's already better than the VCR, with commercial editing. Foo is dead on with the edit methods. I would add that editing files that have been IVTC'd doesn't work in Womble, but the Vdub/TmpGenc combo does work in a limited way. This is only good for one cut, but works for movies.

[txpharoah]

I capture MPEG when the end goal is to direct dump to DVD. "Editing" commercials is just cut/join methods, not editing. All you do is remove that part of the file to remove commercials.

I capture AVI if I edit the snot out of the video.

If editing is minor, I'll consider I-frame MPEG2, as the final encode is faster than from AVI source.

It depends on the capture software and hardware. ATI AIW is great at MPEG capture, but most other cards seem to do a piss-poor job at MPEG capture. So it's really dependent on what you have.

Cheap cards almost always need AVI capture.

I do almost pure AVI at work, and almost pure MPEG2 at home. Never really mess with other formats, though I have in the past.

[SatStorm]

I only capture to avi, I always filter and then I encode to mpeg.
It is the only way I know to succeed the best possible results.
And when I say I filter, I don't mean I filter for things I see and I want to correct. I mean I filter for things I don't see but the encoder see....

BTW, I don't talk DVD here, just analogue grabbs and DVB transmissions. DVD is a totally different thing!

[ktjensen]

FOO - you are the man!! It seems you know exactly what you are doing, and making perfect sense. I have posted my other issues elsewhere but you seem to have answered the key questions.

Here is what I have and where I am going:

1) Have ATI AIW 7500 on WIN98SE (need to be aware of 4gig limit)
2) Real crappy capture via VIRTUALDUB, so I will use the ATI TV capture to MPEG2. Can I get three hours of capture with less than 4 gigs using MPEG2?
3) Edit the MPEG2 with the editor you mentioned.
4) Recompress to make the MPEG2 smaller (although I am not certain about how to do this).

[FOO]

If you capture DVD compliant MPEG2 you can
completely skip the lengthy encode.
Don't recompress to make it smaller - choose
a bit rate that makes it the right size to start with. Duh

I have noted that the movie/commercial ratio is almost
always exactly 75% movie and 25% commercial. A 6 Gig
capture will be 4.5 Gig without commercials. I usually
use 4000K/sec. That will just barely get 135 minutes
which is 75% of a 3 hour movie.

If you screw up and it's too big, Author it anyway and then
use DVD Shrink to reduce it 5% or whatever. Try to get close though.
DVD shrink is not good at tremendous compression.

[FOO]

I might also add that I recently started experimenting
with 352/480 MPEG2 instead of 720 x 480. I was very surprised
to see that it didn't make much difference if any on my TV.

I'm trying to get Shogun without using 500 DVDs. It is 6 episodes
of 2hrs each. Wthout commercials its 9 hours.
I have the first 3 on 1 DVD. ( 4.5 hrs) IVTC buys you 20%.
352 buys you more than 50%. I'm using 2200K/sec and it barely
fits, and looks as good as the original show.

Cheers