Ulead authoring throws audio out of synch

[djbenz]

I've got a really annoying problem with Ulead DVD Workshop at present.

I've been converting avi files with DVD2SVCD and CCE 2.5 to produce a DVD compliant MPEG-2 stream. The MPEG-2's are perfectly in synch.

I've authored half a dozen or so discs with DVD Workshop and they've all been fine. Lately though, every disc I produce has the audio out of synch after about 10 minutes. It is driving me mad!!!

I have the synch patch applied to DVD-WS, and I also tried patching up to version 1.3 but every time I tried to export a project I got an error message "The number of frames in a GOP is invalid for a DVD" even though I have "Close all GOP's checked in DVD2SVCD"

So, to recap :

Original AVI is in synch
Converted MPEG-2 is in-synch
Authored movie is out-of-synch

Anyone know how to fix this? And more importantly, why it is suddenly happening? I read a post further down this forum where it was suggested to de-mux the MPEG-2, but when I use TMPGEnc for this it just produces a blank video file.

Please help!!

DJ

[cumminc]

Is it possible in the project settings you are frameserving from PAL to NTSC or vice versa. It is easy to miss this in Ulead. If the AVI is in synch. and the MPG2 is in synch you can discount dropped or damaged frames so maybe it is the answer.

[djbenz]

If only it were that simple

I always set the TV system before I start, and it only takes 10 mins to export the project, so its not doing any NTSC/PAL conversion.

Thanks though.

DJ

[Mirror_Image]

I have no audio problems at all, if properly patched up to date.

[djbenz]

I patched it up to date and got the Frames/GOP problem described above.

I had to revert to version 1.0 with the synch patch applied to get it to export projects without the error.

**EDIT** If it helps any, the current project I'm trying to export has 2 movies in it, although I've had the same problem with a single movie project.

DJ

[Specialist]

Personally, I don't recommend the use of 3rd party encoders.

My own testing reveals they can often create MPEGs that exhibit such bewildering behavior as you have described.

I checked the FAQ for DVD Workshop here...

http://www.ulead.com/tech/dws/dws10faq.htm

...and didn't see anything specifically related to the problem you're describing.

I suspect the issue relates to the source MPEGs.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[djbenz]

Thanks for the input Jerry. After many hours of searching the net I have concluded that it is definitely not a problem with the source MPEGs. The issue of audio synch with DVDWS is massive and far ranging, with no-one (least of all Ulead) being able to give an explanation or fix for it. In fact, the advice I read was overwhelmingly in favour of using a 3rd party encoder as the built in one with DVDWS is simply not up to the job.

Just do a google groups search for "ulead dvd synch" and you'll see what I mean.

In the end I decided to give up on DVDWS and am currently trying out DVD-Lab, which has produced perfect results on every project so-far including multi-movie projects. It is a real shame because I really like the user friendly interface of DVDWS, but a few more projects on DVD-Lab and I'll be up to speed.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply to this thread.

DJ

[Specialist]

Thanks for the input Jerry. After many hours of searching the net I have concluded that it is definitely not a problem with the source MPEGs.

The many DVDs I've produced with Ulead DVD Workshop exhibit perfect video/audio synchronization.

I have never been able to reproduce the issue you describe.

I do not recommend the use of 3rd party encoders, as I mentioned earlier.

In my opinion, some applications produce MPEGs with various issues.

Still, your issues could be due to even more simple reasons.

Have you experimented with the bitrate of your audio?

I have observed other individuals have sometimes resolved their audio synchronization issues by adjusting the audio bitrate of their source files or by adjusting the audio bitrate setting for their project.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[djbenz]

The many DVDs I've produced with Ulead DVD Workshop exhibit perfect video/audio synchronization.

I have never been able to reproduce the issue you describe.

Which means you are in the lucky group!

It seems, however, that once DVDWS starts with synch problems they are near impossible to solve. In my case I had done several projects with DVDWS with no synch problems whatsoever. Then one day it all went haywire - nothing had changed. The settings in my encoder had not been meddled with, no other software had been installed on my PC, but the synch problems remained.

Ever since that point any project I exported gave synch problems, but now by using DVD-Lab those problems have disappeared which leads me to point the finger at DVDWS.

Some interesting reading Here

DJ

[Specialist]

I had done several projects with DVDWS with no synch problems whatsoever. Then one day it all went haywire

Which suggests to me that something system-related or process-related caused the issue.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

[lchiu7]

I use DVDWS regularly to author and burn to DVD and have never (well maybe once) experiened any problems with sync. But I **never** use the program to create the mpeg file - I do that using tmpgenc. I can get the invalid number of GOP messages easily by feeding in the output of Snapstream (it produces strange mpeg files) so I have to re-encode Snapstream files with tmpgenc before authoring

Larry

[n8wheel]

I experienced my first DVD Workshop audio drift problem last week (which prompted me to search for this thread).

I think the problem may be related to the audio capture quality. I usually use 224 or 384. This time I used 192.

The MPEG is fine.

I will try some more sample captures with 224 and 192 to see if the problem is linked to the bit rate.

If it isn't I am really disappointed.

[MrMungus]

I'm having the same sync problem with TMPGEnc DVD Author.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=201267

[Specialist]

The update patches are available here...

http://www.ulead.com/tech/dws/dws_ftp.htm

After applying the patches, one should adjust one's video/audio encode settings in Ulead DVD Workshop to precisely match the properties of the source video/audio... including the bitrate of both video and audio.

Then check the DO NOT CONVERT COMPLIANT FILES option.

If this principle is followed, it [usually] eliminates any video/audio synchronization issues.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

I experienced my first DVD Workshop audio drift problem last week (which prompted me to search for this thread).

I think the problem may be related to the audio capture quality. I usually use 224 or 384. This time I used 192.

The MPEG is fine.

I will try some more sample captures with 224 and 192 to see if the problem is linked to the bit rate.

If it isn't I am really disappointed.

[n8wheel]

Ok Mr. Jones, I have followed a lot of your posts and I appreciate all the good information you have posted about this (mostly) fine product.

But here's the real question: if I have checked "Do Not convert compliant files", why should it matter whether my project settings are the same as the video and audio attributes of the clip? I usually pay no attention to the project settings on the Make Disc step (pick 8,000 kbps by habit). I never have DVD WS re-encode. (Well that's not true, I did have it re-encode a clip from my capture card once, which lead to my learning all about Field Order

BTW, I realize that this is one of those questions that may have no answer. At least not one that can be discussed in less than 10,000 words.

I find it encouraging that TMPGEnc's DVD Author also has these problems. That was the product that I would have purchased if I hadn't gotten a good deal on DVDWS. At least now I don't have to kick myself too hard.

Another thing I wanted to mention!
Someone here said that once DVD WS starts having synch problems, it will always have synch problems. That is simply not true. I recently captured from VHS some home movies that showed someone playing the piano. The synch in the authored disc was perfect. Video capture: VBR ~7200. Audio capture: 224.

[patrickm]

i had the problem with it too, and that plus not liking it all that much led me to change programs. I do still use the videostudio part to get compliant AC3 sound with my MPEGs though. I've found that playing the .VOB files that it authored as a project were often out of sync, even w/o re-encode. but maybe it has something to do with the mux settings. it may tell it to mux audio assuming 224 and you're using 192 or 384.

btw, Ulead's burning program sucks too, luckily nero express was bundled with mine.

[Specialist]

Is it possible you may have answered your own question?

Was it possible that your FIELD ORDER attribute was incorrect and you observed re-encoding even with the DO NOT CONVERT COMPLIANT FILES option CHECKED?

At any rate, the reason I advocate the practice is due to the fact I have spent years using Ulead's MediaStudio Pro *editing* application.

To activate Smart Render technology in Ulead MediaStudio Pro to avoid unnecessary rendering, one must carefully match one's project settings to conform to the properties of the source clips.

The same technology (and principle) applies to most Ulead programs.

DVD Workshop user Mark Dileo wrote a very good article about MediaStudio Pro that also delves into issues governing the way DVD Workshop operates.

The article is on the Web page at the following link:

http://www.matroxusers.com/mreviews.php?op=showcontent&id=6

Scroll down to the bottom of the preceding Web page and then click the SMART RENDER IN DEPTH topic.

Mark explains the encode/re-encode logic of Ulead DVD Workshop very well.

I advocate the practice mainly out of a desire to teach a principle.

If one understands the fundamental relationship between project settings and source file properties. one can make more informed decisions about how to set-up different projects using different types of source files and how to use the encoding tools to maximum benefit.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

But here's the real question: if I have checked "Do Not convert compliant files", why should it matter whether my project settings are the same as the video and audio attributes of the clip? I usually pay no attention to the project settings on the Make Disc step (pick 8,000 kbps by habit). I never have DVD WS re-encode. (Well that's not true, I did have it re-encode a clip from my capture card once, which lead to my learning all about Field Order .

[stefke2000]

Ok I think I have some clue here.
I am using ulead WS for 6 months now without any sync problem, until this weekend!After many hours (even at night!) of research, I came finally to following conclusion: it is not ulead causing the problem:

My 30 previous dvd's without sync problems were all rendered as one big mpg, made at once, and then authored.
For my last dvd, I merged 4 different filesat different moments in time, all edited on their own. Once I had enough footage for one full dvd, I merged them in ulead MSP.

After trying tmpg author: same sync problem!: about 2 sec out of sync for last part of video, although mpeg file playin perfectly in sync on pc. So only AFTER authoring I had a sync problem...and with different authoring programs!

I tried everything, and finally decided to demux the whole merged file, and reencode the audio afterwards to see the result. Guess what? audio out of sync! Just demuxing and remuxing was causing the problem! As you guys know, authoring programs are also demuxing and THERE lays the cause of the sync problem.

Further testing: for every seperated file I did the demux and compared then video length with audio length! Every time there was a difference (some msec.), so of course, when merged, all this little differences give a total result of a big difference... The reason might be: I resynced all the files one by one over time by cutting f.i. 200 ms off the audio. When merged, Ulead MSP can handle this, but when demuxing, it seems the gaps caused by synchronizing, are filled up with the audio of the next file merged...so getting more and more out of sync over time.

Solution: Feed all files seperately to Ulead dvd WS, so you get different titles....

Hope this helps....

[n8wheel]

Stefke,
There is only one problem – I have observed the synch issue occurring with a single mpeg/ single title.

Some further observations:
- when analyzed with Womble, problem mpeg shows ‘audio PTS’ errors
- all mpegs from capture card show PTS errors, but only a rare few show audio drift
- mpegs captured with DVD WS do not have drift problems and do not show PTS errors in Womble (maybe because of DV-->mpeg capture, doesn’t use sound card? see below)
- other user has made interesting observation that locating the VCR on top of the computer causes audio drift problems
- is it possible that certain VHS tapes will cause audio drift?
- other user has noted that most sound cards are designed to capture at 44.1 kHz, not 48 kHz. His recent post (I didn’t have time to read it through) may show how to ‘calibrate’ your sound card.

I attempted to use Womble to correct the PTS errors. I am not sure if I did so correctly. (Although Womble has a ‘scan and fix’ option, it does not appear to actually produce the output file I specify.) At any rate the file I was able to save showed audio BEFORE the video as opposed to after. I regret that my trial version of Womble has expired and I can’t afford $120 to reactivate. That is a stellar program for editing mpegs and the mpeg fix function could be useful.

The recent post about sound cards being designed to capture at 44.1 kHz as opposed to 48 kHz is very intriguing. I regret that I do not remember the exact name of the thread or the author, although I have it bookmarked elsewhere. The thread had several Moderator posts so you know he was on interesting territory.

Jerry, sorry about not responding. Thanks for the link to the Smartrender discussion. I have more to learn about when DVD WS will reencode audio.
As regards the Field Order issue, DVD WS will not reencode a compliant mpeg if the field order is different from the project settings IF “Do Not Reencode Compliant File” is checked. However, if you allow it to reencode, it MAY turn a Field Order B file into a Field Order A file (with of course disastrous results). I say MAY because, curiously, I have seen times when it does, and times when it does not. Strange.

[stefke2000]

Ok, but my point was, and maybe I am not in the right thread here, that a lot of users report that, even with a perfect mpeg, which is perfectly in sync, you can have a dvd which is not in sync anymore. A lot of people blamed Ulead WS (also here), but I did tests with other authoring programs, with same sync issues, and concluded it was a demultiplexing problem.

[northcat_8]

Being a DVDWS user I'm just following along in this thread, not really having a solution or suggestion, pretty much just learning, but I encode virtually every DVD using DVDWS and have never had an audio sync problem.

I just made a DVD that had 8 different files. 2 MPEG-2 files rendered in Pinnacle Studio 8, and 6 DV-AVI files captured, edited and rendered in Studio 8. DVDWS handled them all without any audio or video problems.

I have thrown DVDWS some pretty heavy files, 60 GB DV-AVI files, all kinds of different codec files in the same build, I have even created 12.4 GB DVD's using DVDWS and have never had any trouble with it.

But like someone said, maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

[n8wheel]

Stefke,
You are correct about the thread. I was only commenting that the problem is not restricted to joined mpegs.

My problem mpegs come from continuous captures. I capture with the Adaptec Videoh! PCI.

[MrMungus]

Being a DVDWS user I'm just following along in this thread, not really having a solution or suggestion, pretty much just learning, but I encode virtually every DVD using DVDWS and have never had an audio sync problem.

I just made a DVD that had 8 different files. 2 MPEG-2 files rendered in Pinnacle Studio 8, and 6 DV-AVI files captured, edited and rendered in Studio 8. DVDWS handled them all without any audio or video problems.

I have thrown DVDWS some pretty heavy files, 60 GB DV-AVI files, all kinds of different codec files in the same build, I have even created 12.4 GB DVD's using DVDWS and have never had any trouble with it.

But like someone said, maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones.

I've had a lot of success with Ulead products too (in my case, DVD MovieFactory). MPEG-2 files that would lose synch after conversion by DVDLab or TMPEG DVD Author would be perfectly synched if I used MovieFactory to author the DVD instead. I was using a PVR-250 card and having problems with bad MPEG-2 files being created if the source was bad, but since I got a new computer have switched to capturing via Firewire/MovieFactory MPEG-2 software encoding on the fly.

[n8wheel]

mrmungus, as I tried to say, but probably didn't say so clearly, I also don't have any problems with Firewire/DVD WS MPEG-2 software encoding on the fly. In fact if my camcorder had digital pass-thru that's what I would do all the time. Should have spent a few more $$.

For those of us stuck with capture cards and slightly defected MPEG-2s, here is a link to a program I just learned about in the forums here:
http://www.offeryn.de/pvas_prerelease.htm
The tool is called PVAStrumento and (among other things) it can repair mpegs. I look forward to seeing if it will help the audio drift problem.

[stefke2000]

n8wheel,

is your mpeg ok when playing on pc?

[stefke2000]

My point is that there is nothing wrong in my mpeg, it plays perfectly. Only after authoring things get out of sync. So only when playing the created vob file on pc, audio plays few sec. too early. Many think it's Ulead, but the cause is the demux process, which is used by all authoring software. Anyone suggestions?

[n8wheel]

Stefke,
Yes, the mpeg plays perfectly on the PC.

The authored files show the lag whether played on the stand-alone or the PC.

[n8wheel]

Well I tried PVAStrumento... unlike with Womble, there are no problems with the "fixed" mpeg after authoring. Unfortunately I don't have any mpegs that have audio drift problems on hand to test right now.

Here's what I did:
- Launched PVAStrumento gui
- opened sample mpeg (1 h 20 mins)
- clicked "Make PS" (more or less at random - I didn't d/l the help file version so I don't know exactly what the options are)
- kept all options as is, except under Audio tab - unchecked the first two, and checked the third (no real logic to it, just liked the sound of "Beautify")
- clicked Start, waited about 10 mins
- found "fixed" mpeg in C:\
- authored using DVD WS.

The MPEG that I tested was a second capture of the movie Evil Dead. This capture doesn't appear to have any audio drift problems, except that after I Wombled it the audio appeared slightly before the video.

Hope this may help someone, who knows...

[jgl]

I was having the same problem, captured mpg was in synch and then reauthored video was out of synch. I also believe that demuxing was the problem. The demuxing occurred because the audio was not captured in dvd-video format (48khz). This lead to demuxing and transcoding of the audio component. After reading this thread, I made sure to capture audio at 48khz and lo and behold, the synch problems disappeared.

Thanks everyone, hope this helps.

Setup:
Leadtek Winfast 2000 XP Deluxe

Authoring Tools:
Tmpeg DVD Author
DVD Movie Factory
Sonic MyDVD

At first, I used Leadtek software to capture to mpeg. All 3 authoring tools caused audio synch problems. Since the Leadtek sw didn't allow setting of audio sampling, I used DVD Movie Factory to capture (also to mpeg). To author, I tried DMF and TDA and they both produced synched video. Hooray!

Good luck!

PS. My vcr sits on top of my computer and I do have onboard audio

[jgl]

Update:
I've captured and recorded several vhs tapes that were losing frames. They lost audio synch after authoring in previous attempts but now I've successfully copied them to dvd without problem. Capturing audio at 48khz made the big difference.

Good Luck!