WMV9 world's best codec

[mcard]

Or so they say....is it true?

I recently came across several reviews that were done on various codecs, and there seems to be a lot of praise for WMV9 lately. There seems to be a growing opinion that WMV9 hands down blows everything out of the water. One review went so far as to say that WMV9 embarrasses other codecs in terms of video quality and compression.

I've been using the picvideo mjpeg codec up till now, and never bothered with WMV9, but curiosity bit me, and I had to see if all these claims were true. I must say I'm impressed. When I compare my picvideo mjpeg at a 19 setting vs a wmv9, there is virtually no difference in quality, yet the WMV file is a gazillion times smaller. Actually the quality on the WMV9 codec seems so good, that there's very little difference from the original source.

I did these tests capturing at 640X480, and burning to SVCD and comparing on a TV. Comparing on the computer monitor, you can see slight difference in quality between the avi and wmv file, but very slight. On the TV screen it's virtually identical.

So I'm wondering if I'm missing something, since there seems to be a lot of dislike for WMV9. I don't really like the fact that MS seems to be trying to take over everything, including going into multimedia territory which has been territory traditionally dominated by Apple, but I must admit, they seem to have done an outstanding job with this new codec.

[fmctm1sw]

Or so they say....is it true?

Yep. And I'm going to PM you in a minute and tell you about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy.

j/k. I have Windows Media Encoder (WME) and I like it pretty well. I don't use it much since I make VCD/CVD/SVCD to watch on TV. I don't think the WME files will play on anything but WME 9 though. But don't quote me on that....

[thayne]

I won't use it. M$ need to stay out of the digital video business...

[Fozzee]

. I don't use it much since I make VCD/CVD/SVCD to watch on TV. I don't think the WME files will play on anything but WME 9 though. But don't quote me on that....

He is saying.... Why not use WMV codec to capture and encode to VCD/SVCD. As he notices no difference in doing that and capturing using using a more space hungry codec.

So it is relevant to what u do.

And you can play WMV on other video applications as long as the codec is installed.

Fozzee

[Supreme2k]

So, how exactly do you install the WMV codec on your standalone DVD player? :P

[Fozzee]

So, how exactly do you install the WMV9 codec on your standalone DVD player? :P

I hope I'm not going mad. But either I'm completely missing the point or you people are just not listening. (I may be mad I accept that LOL)

When capturing an avi most people use some sort of compression.
The original poster MCARD was saying.....

When he captured using the WMV9 codec the resulting file was just as good as when he used a codec with less compression e.g mjpeg.
He then went on to say AFTER BURNING TO SVCD (and I was assuming re-encoding to Mpeg2 first) the resulting file was just as good as if he had used the mjpeg codec and then re-encoded to SVCD.

So he poses the question "why not capture with WMV9 because the space used on your hard drive is MUCH smaller". And in his opinion the captured file is just as good for re-encoding to SVCD as a mjpeg capture.

So i can't see the relevance of your comment Supreme2k.
I hope MCARD doesn't say i was barking up the wrong tree. But i don't think I am.
Anyway where is he LOL

Fozzee

[SatStorm]

I have compared latest XviD with WMV9. Both captured CBR at the same framesize / bitrate.

WMV9 looked somehow better on my PC monitor. But when I convert to CVD, the result from the XviD source was better.

And from both sources, the final CVD quality was far less good any convertion from PicVideo (the mjpeg codec I use)

So, IMHO, WMV9 manage to look better visually on PC, but it is not good to use it as a source or a codec for capture. IMHO, Huffyuv and mjpeg (morgan, PicVideo) are still the best solutions for this task.
IMHO, other users may have other opinion.

[mcard]

I'm here! Fozzy you right on the money. I'm sure all the other guys were posting comments tongue in cheek. With all the views on this post so far, there hasn't been much comment on WMV9.

SATSTORM>> That's what I thought too, but are you sure you're using WMV9 at the right setting? I use "video for local playback (2.1 MPBS)." At this setting, the quality is virtually identical to Picvideo MJPEG at 19. On the computer monitor there's little difference, and nearly indistinguishable after converted to MPEG2 and burned to SVCD and watched on TV.

So, I pose the question again. Is WMV9 really that good or am I overlooking something? Ie/ one of the best codecs available now in terms of quality and compression?

[SatStorm]

The problem is not with the things we see, but with the things we can't see and the encoders do see.
And yes, I used various settings at my tests.

WMV9 is a good codec, but belongs to the devil itself, so I don't like to use it. My tests show me that it is not the best solution for capture. I bellieve that mjpeg or huffyuv for interlace PAL material do a better job.
And as always, this is my opinion, others may have other!

[mcard]

WMV9 is a good codec, but belongs to the devil itself, so I don't like to use it.

hehehe...this is what I'm guessing is the main reason why people don't give this codec the credit it's due. Looks like they're out to take over the world...next thing u know, you'll see MS toasters.

[Champion_R]

I use Huffyuv to capture then after Virtualdub processing, I find that a file encoded with Windows Media 9 format is far better than a file encoded with XViD.

But the encoding time for Windows Media is slower than with XViD. But then again the Windows Media Encoder is SMP aware where the XViD isn't to my knowledge.

In my eyes, I'd prefer to spend more time encoding (or less time with a duallie) to have a better looking final product.

[pijetro]

I encode strictly for e-mail. It's idiot proof for people at the receiving end, who aren't computer knowledgable.....

BTW, has anybody tried feeding the encoder an .AVS script?? It burps up on me........

[Champion_R]

Use the command line version. It's what I use for WMV making.

[Supreme2k]

And you can play WMV on other video applications as long as the codec is installed.

Fozzee

That's what I was referring to.

[Fozzee]

j/k. I have Windows Media Encoder (WME) and I like it pretty well. I don't use it much since I make VCD/CVD/SVCD to watch on TV. I don't think the WME files will play on anything but WME 9 though. But don't quote me on that....

I was referring to this.
I was assuming he was talking about the resulting WMV9 files. And what applications will play them (On the PC).
I was saying there are other programs that will play them if the right codecs were installed.
I may of assumed wrongly.


Fozzee

[thayne]

You shouldn't compress video you plan on converting later. I don't care how good it is, it compresses by cutting something out. WMV9 is meant to be a final output, not a capture codec. Use a DV codec for capture if you are going to output to DVD/SVCD etc....

[Fozzee]

You shouldn't compress video you plan on converting later. I don't care how good it is, it compresses by cutting something out. Use a DV codec for capture if you are going to output to DVD/SVCD etc....

You can only do that if your source is DV can't you??

What about TV/ Analogue Cam/VHS etc.

Not that I would use WMV for capturing LOL

Fozzee

[thayne]

In that case I would use the hardware codec that comes with your capture board, or something like Huffyuv or another "lossless" codec.

[Cornucopia]

I'll agree with what thayne had to say about codec quality and go one step further:

This is the order that one should think of as far as capturing (Quality and Size from High to Low):

1. Uncompressed RGB
2. Uncompressed YUV
3. Losslessly compressed (e.g. Huffyuv in lossless mode)
4. Mildly-compressed DV-50 and/or MJPEG (~2:1)
5. Normally Compressed DV-25 and/or MJPEG (3:1 or greater)
6. Other proprietary capture/storage codecs (e.g. Wavelet,...)
7. High-bitrate MPG4 (incl. DivX, XVid, WMV, QT6, H.263)
8. High-bitrate I-frame MPEG2
9. High-bitrate Normal GOP MPEG2
10. All the rest (not-recommended)

With hard drives at >120GB, who worries about size these days? (No pun intended). :P
Go for the quality!

Scott

[thayne]

The only reason I didn't suggest uncompressed is unless you have really fast drives (ie RAID) you will surely drop frames.

[txpharoah]

Unedited MPEG2 capture on a good machine will rival any AVI-capped and then encoded MPEG2. I do it all the time. So while that chart is probably okay for low-end cards, it wouldn't apply to the better ones.

[Fozzee]

Unedited MPEG2 capture on a good machine will rival any AVI-capped and then encoded MPEG2. I do it all the time. So while that chart is probably okay for low-end cards, it wouldn't apply to the better ones.

Hi it's me again Mr Private Message

I have been capturing for a long time in high bitrate high resolution Mpeg2. I then encoded to CVD.
I had a dabble with capturing to avi first and then encoding to CVD.
And to be honest I can't tell the blind bit of difference!!

Fozzee

[txpharoah]

Unedited MPEG2 capture on a good machine will rival any AVI-capped and then encoded MPEG2. I do it all the time. So while that chart is probably okay for low-end cards, it wouldn't apply to the better ones.

Hi it's me again Mr Private Message

I have been capturing for a long time in high bitrate high resolution Mpeg2. I then encoded to CVD.
I had a dabble with capturing to avi first and then encoding to CVD.
And to be honest I can't tell the blind bit of difference!!

Fozzee

Why not just capture straight to 352x480 CVD spec MPEG2? Even less steps since you can capture fine to MPEG2!

(Unless you edit, then you should always pick uncompressed AVI if you have the space, or MPEG2 I-frame only if you are tight on space. HuffyUV or MPJEG if you so desire.)

[Fozzee]

Well for me it's 352 x 576 PAL.

I have done that in the past.
But I have a DVD burner coming soon so I'm just keeping some of my captures on the drive ready for encoding to DVD.
I don't tend to edit much.

Plus I would still have to re-encode as I'm not happy capturing CVD at low bitrates.

Fozzee

[Fozzee]

When creating CVD I only use the same bitrate as SVCD . That way I can create CVDs as SVCD that will play on my DVD player.
Later on (when I get a DVD burner) I can put these videos on DVD without re-encoding as 1/2 DVD.

As far as capturing straight to CVD I have an AverTV Studio Card.
So I can't use MMC.
I have access to PowerVCR and PowerDirector Pro 2.5.

PowerVCR produces strange captures almost like VBR. If I set the bitrate to 3000 I get an average of 2450, but I can do a regedit to get 352 x 576.

With PowerDirector Pro the bitrate is more stable than PowerVCR if I set it to 3000 it will be just under that.
BUT I can't get 352 x 576 resolution.

I have tried WinDVR2 in the past but got audio/video synch problems.
I haven't tried WinDVR3 yet.

Any other programs I can try??

Fozzee

[txpharoah]

Any other programs I can try??Fozzee

NeoDVD4, but that's scraping the bottom of the barrel, along with WinDVR and PowerDirector (a POS that won't install on any of my 3 systems!).

The WinDVR is blended-deinterlaced.
The NeoDVD4 bitrate is bloated.
PowerVCR II has macroblocking.
MPEGvcr was unstable.
PowerDirector crashed.

Pick your poison. :P

Hmmm.... no wonder non-ATI users hate MPEG capture.

Glad it worked for you so far, though someday, as your skills and pocketbook increases, go get another card for yourself. You deserve it.

What is the regedit hack for PowerVCRII?
And what is the deinterlace hack for PowerVCRII?

Somebody asked me, and I didn't know, plus a site search didn't help. I told him to look around, but since it was a friend, I'd like to give him a better answer if I can.

I too have an Aver Toy... err... Aver Card, and I use NeoDVD4 to capture movies at Half D1 then burn straight to disc. Menus and the such mean nothing to me on those "projects". All in all, worth the $10 I spent.

[The village idiot]

WMV9 is a good codec, but belongs to the devil itself

I had to immortalize this one!

[txpharoah]

WMV9 is a good codec, but belongs to the devil itself

I had to immortalize this one!

And just in case somebody overlooks it, I'll repeat it!
WMV9 is a good codec, but belongs to the devil itself

[mcard]

[quote="Fozzee
Not that I would use WMV for capturing LOL

Fozzee[/quote]

Why not? Other than the fact that it belongs to the devil himself...it's a pretty damn good codec, and I can't tell much difference between a WMV9 cap and the others in terms of quality.

Needless to say it only makes sense that an uncompressed avi will always give the best quality, much of the difference seems to be lost when converting to mpeg1 VCD or even mpeg2 SVCD. All looks same....maybe I need new glasses ;0

[SatStorm]

Huffyuv and Pic Video MJPEG are better.

It is not only what you see (whatever glasses you wearing...). It is also those you can't see, but the encoder DO see.

Yes, xvid and wmv and any other mpeg 4 codec can be used for capturing. I use xvid for example, when I want to capture and encode the same time.
Capturing to mpeg 4 having in mind a reencoding to mpeg 2 ain't a good idea.

IF you think that is OK for you, use it. It is about you afterall.

Because you can't see a difference, that doesn't mean that ain't a difference.
There is. If you can live without it, then lucky you.

I try to be open minded, so I test stuff when they pop up. And my tests show me clearly that WMV9 is good, XviD with tweeking can be better and capturing to Huffyuv and Pic Video is better.

It works for you? Use it. But don't try to prove that WMV9 is better Huffyuv or PicVideo to advance users with knowledge for those subjects.

And I repait. Beyond the fact that this belongs to the devil itself (a huge minus), capturing to interlace XviD having in mind encoding later to mpeg 2, IMHO shows better results than doing this with WMV9. A possible reason is that XviD holds more usefull info for the encoder later, while WMV9 holds more usefull info for the visual pleasure.