Converting SVCD PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976 fps

[funkguy4]

Yah well :P jk. I don't use the "Do not framerate conversion thing", because it'll desync it. As for the field repeat, typo on my part since I was tired when I posted it. MY BAD! Yah if you go from 25fps to 24fps then wouldn't it creat a desync if you select the "Do not frmaerate conversion"?

[Machine514]

funkguy4,

I can't see why you would not check the "do not frame rate conversion" box. Converting the audio takes ~5-10 mintues with BeSweet!

I have done plenty of conversions of PAL to NTSC and they are all perfect. You just have to follow the tutorial!

-Machine

[funkguy4]

Converting the audio and changing the video length kinda ruins it for me since the audio will be slightly off and the motion will be slightly slower than the actual movie really was. I guess it's just a personal thing, but with my computer it doesn't take too long!

[adam]

funkguy, PAL is a very minimal 4% faster than film (NTSCfilm.) When the conversion is made, both the audio AND the video are sped up by 4%, so there is no desync. Nothing is added, nothing is taken away, its just a simple playback speed adjustment. To convert the PAL signal to NTSC, you just need to reverse this process and store the video as NTSCfilm, and then let the player telecine it to 29.97fps.

I find it very odd that the motion and audio seem slow to you after converting the PAL back to FILM, because all you are doing is returning it to the speed at which it was filmed. You are simply returning it to how it STARTED. If anything the PAL version should seem to be playing too fast, but even then 4% is just not enough to cause any noticable change on almost all sources.

funkguy, by not using the do not framerate conversion filter you are literally throwing out random frames in your movie, 1 frame per second. On any given scene, this can cause noticable motion skips for obvious reasons. If you prefer the resulting quality, then of course use what works for you but I simply cannot recommend this method for others and this is certainly not how professional PAL->NTSC conversions are done.

If you follow this guide correctly the audio will never be "off." It will sync up perfectly with your video because both have been slowed down by the same amount. Both the audio and video will simply be returned to the speed at which they originated at. Remember even if PAL regions, most professional filming is still done at 24fps, not 25fps. There is never any harm in returning film to its native playback speed.

[funkguy4]

O, so then PAL ppl actually have video that's like about 4% fasta? Aight then, thx. 8)

[RiaaCop]

napski:

Excellent guide!

Question: What if I have a PAL SVCD with a 20.000 fps? How should I go about converting that? What settings should I use?

I have quite a few SVCD's that are PAL that I need to convert over to NTSC. I used ISOBuster as suggested on the AVESQ01.MPG file that is on the CD, but when I use the preview and statistics in DVD2AVI on the file, it says its framerate is 20.000 fps, PAL and interlaced.

How should I convert these?

RiaaCop:

Have you found a decent solution to convert the 20.fps Pal To Ntsc 29.fps standard? If so, can you explain to me what the steps to take to achieve this at Ntsc (Film) 23fps? Im using TMPGEnc-2.513.53.162 and project wizard (1/5) box is set to project wizard (2/5) NTSC Film 352x240 23.976fps.

But when I attempt to load (video file: Pal ) 20fps file to (using tmpgEnc app) project wizard (2/5) the damn thing came back with an error box stating a invalid video source from the Pal 20fps file. I never done a Pal to Ntsc conversion before and this is my first try... so how do I get around this error?

adam:

napski, you must have forced film activated. This does not work with PAL encoded video, and if set it will give you ~19-20fps output. Just turn it off on the video tab and follow the guide as normal.

RiaaCop:

I was wondering if you can explain to me what adam meant by turning off the "film from being forced enable". Supposely I thought the false reading came from the DVD2AVI app, after reading it from your post and I quote --->

but when I use the preview and statistics in DVD2AVI on the file, it says its framerate is 20.000 fps

you never mention it was checked with TmpgEnc app which I assumed have this feature not Dvd2Avi app. If im wrong please correct me to clear up this miss- understanding. Does DvD2Avi have this forced film feature and how you disable it?

Seening im even more confuse about the deal with GoldWave ver.504 detecting ( processing audio decompression ) when im loading a ( Pal 20fps ) mpeg, Dat, avi, files. When you go to saving it, the program (goldwave) ask me... how would you like to save the (Pal so-call 20fps weird standard) wave format. Here are my steps:

when you goto file/ save as.../ save sound as <--in the save sound as box there are 3 areas (1.) file name: Pal2NtSc (2.) save as type: Wave (*.wav) Attributes: ???? . Set Attribute to what... or do I leave this at the default setting when saving it then change it later from 20fps to 23Fps?



But there no information explaining how to save the "Pal wave file" to a 23fps Ntsc wave type format using goldwave sound editor program. Can somebody please explain how this is correctly done with a step by step, thank you advance.

Edit: Clarifying "confusing post" update for whoever ver.0.27

[Machine514]

Whoa, what a confusing post!!!!!

I would just try to convert PAL 20fps to NTSC 23.976fps with the method above.

What's the worst that could happen?

-Machine

[adam]

DVD2AVI has a feature called forced film which only works on NTSC DVDs which are encoded at 23.976fps. It works by disabling the 3:2 pulldown flags which would normally cause it to be played back at 29.97fps, thus preserving the 23.976fps source as it is stored. But, if your source isn't in fact encoded at 23.976fps, ie: PAL then it will attempt to decimate frames to get it to this framerate. If you have forced film enabled on a PAL source you often get weird framerates, such as 20fps. If you look on the video tab under field operation you will see an option for forced film. This is an absolute godsend for NTSC footage, but for PAL footage you MUST set this tab to NONE.

There really aren't many correct ways you would ever get 20fps. Its possible you could be an animator and chose to only draw that many frames per sec, but other than that you wouldn't get to 20fps unless you did something wrong somewhere and using forced film in dvd2avi would be the easiest way to make this mistake.

If you do in fact have material encoded at 20fps, and you want to play it back on a tv, then your best option would be to encode to either 23.976fps or 25fps, depending on what format you need, ie: NTSC or PAL respectively, using frame duplication. You can do this in TMPGenc by simply setting the desired output framerate and UNCHECKING the "do not framerate conversion" filter on the advanced tab. You are going to have to duplicate frames, which will cause noticable motion problems, because speeding film up that much will look much worse. You can also skip the additional processing of the audio, since you are just creating new frames each second and not actually increasing the playback speed, the will remain in sync.

Don't expect great results with 20fps material, its simply not a proper source for tv playback.

[RiaaCop]

Thank you adam for giving me more additional information on Dvd2Avi app and how a movie Pal 20fps file work. But I use dvd2avi more like a media tool for information on how the file was formatted for video and audio then anything else.

Im more interested in knowing how to strip out the wave file using goldwave sound editor program then using Dvd2AVi app especially for mpeg files. But if the Dvd2Avi is a better media utilities tool then goldwave then i've go ahead and learn how to use it instead. If not then what are the steps needed to use goldwave to make a save ntsc 23fps wave output file?

Btw adam, man you was right about the file not being a 20fps, turn out it was a 25fps Pal file instead. I found a couples of media tools like, AVIcodec, G-spot, mpegprop, movieid and VirtualDubMod to show me what type formatted Pal file being set at for video and sound.

Also notice the regular VirtualDub (not the hack Mod version) wont shows the setting for audio as well as mpegprop app. But at least they dont cry out with errors of not enable to opening up the files like TmpgEnc and virtualDub does with no understand what to do next to correct the situation. Adam what exactly is audio and video "lock" that show in the flags setting in mpegprop tool app?



As you notice below, even "VirtualDubMod Hack version" wont give me complete information on this file. But at least I get a portion on the video not like TmpgEnc or regular VirtualDub.



While Goldwave sound editor app still ask me, how would I like to manual set the movie file sound type. Uhm im kinda lost here... what other media tool can give me the information on the sound format setting? How do I suppose to set the setting when there no apps showing me what the sound setting are? Or is the sound part in this file locked where I cant have any access to that part of information?!? Btw the file play okay using WinDvD player with no problems.



Any help would be appreciated and thank again.

[adam]

Vdub is actually giving you the correct fps of that file. It is stored on the disk as 23.976fps and contains pulldown flags which instructs the DVD player to perfom a 2:2 telecine to PAL as the movie plays, just how an NTSC would have pulldown flags to perform a 3:2 telecine. Some PAL DVDs are like this, some aren't.

You should actually be able to convert the video to NTSC without even encoding. Just use something like restream or pulldown.exe to set the fps to 23.976fps and set the 3:2 pulldown flag to true. Note that this only works on DVDs which actually store the video at 23.976fps.

Now you will still have to slow the audio down. I've never used GoldWave so I can't help you except to say that PAL runs 4% faster than NTSC, so to convert to NTSC you would have to slow it down by that much. If your audio is AC3 then dvd2avi can decode that to wav for you. You can just follow one of the many dvd backup guides on this site to find the steps for this. I prefer to demux the AC3 to a separate file directly off the disk using DVD Decryptor. From there I can load the AC3 into BeSweet and encode to my desired output type and use its built in regional format conversion function, ie: PAL->NTSC.

If this file can be loaded into VirtulDub then you can just set the audio tab to full processing and then click file/save wav to get the wav file.

I don't know what that program means when it says locked for audio and video. I have never used that software.

[igneous]

Machine415 did you run into a problem when encoding the video file in tmpg? Is it a necessity and crucial part of the conversion to load the file in DVD2AVI and frameserv it? The problem I'm having is that the video encodes all teh way all the frames are encoded and the time is correct but I'm missing the ending of the movie. Here's what I'm doing:

1.Rip Mpeg Stream with VCDGear.
2. Demux Video and Audio Streams in Tmpg.
3. Load Video File "movie1.m2v".
4. Select "Do not frame rate conversion"
5. Set Frame Rate to: 23.976 (29.97 internally).
6. Set Encode Mode to: 3:2 pulldown when playback.
7. Encode movie
8. Use BeSweet and do the audio part.
9. Multiplex back the files together
10. Cry b/c the movie picture freezes near the ending and the sound keeps going.


This movie I'm trying to convert is 2 discs long and both discs do the same thing. I've tried about 4 different files now and same problem occured. Near the end of the movie the picture freezes and the sound keeps going. Its wierd because when I look at the frame it shows all the frames encoded and the video goes all the way to 100% without any problems whatsoever. When I Multiplex the audio and video they both work flawless no problems at all. The only problem is that the movie somehow isn't encoding properly. Something is getting screwed up and I dont know where. i dont understand it because the entire movie (disc1) is 40minutes and 20seconds. And when the movie is finished encodiing it is 40minutes and 20seconds in tmpg and all the frames are correct too but the picture freezes at the 40:20 mark. Is there something I missed in the guide? UPDATE:: It worked perfectly with with dvd2avi > tmpg.

Also I was wondering if it would be ok to just encode to 29.97fps (and select the DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION) box in INTERLACED encode mode and then use beSweet to change the audio from 25fps (PAL) to 29.97 (NTSC)? Would the audio and video be in sync still and there are no missing parts at the end of the movie?

Also would it be ok to encode to 23.976 (29.97 internally) and (DO NOT SELECT the DO NOT FRAME RATE CONVERSION) box in 3:2 Pulldown when Playback Encode mode. And convert the sound from 25(pal) to 23.976(NTSC)? Would that turn out successfull aswell when it comes to the audio and video being in sync and there is no missing parts to the ending of the movie.

[Machine514]

I hate to do this, but I am going to do it anyways.

Did you read through the thread? Most of these issues have ben talked about already. You have to read the thread!

Yes you have to frameserve with DVD2AVI. I ran into the EXACT same problem without DVD2AVI. Part of the movie was cut off at the end. If you read my guide like you said, you would have found this line...

"I am not sure what frameserving is, but I see it all the time in the forums. I converted close to 10 different files without this step. It simply does not work. Video is cut off during the conversion process if this is not done (see step 5). "

So please don't say...

"I read it about 15 times already out of paranoya."

Encode from PAL 25fps to NTSC 29.97 fps? Read Adam's posts in this thread. He has great explanations on this topic and others that you asked about.

-Machine

[RiaaCop]

Well I hate to do this, But I am going to anyways... butt... this babe should save some time.

Said igneous how about this instead. I came across this excellent, easy, media encoder tool. It's call ---> "MainConcept MPEG Encoder" and it really, really, save a hell ( alots ) of time. But as you already read above here, I'd already mention that part. Im gonna skip all the necessary stuffs that needed to be done to get a media file Pal to Ntsc, because it's not needed. Just load your Pal avi and convert to Ntsc mpeg.

Now I did come across some problems with this encoder but nothing that can be fixed from my stupid mistakes. The main problem is, when I encode my Pal 20fps TesT.avi file that was originally 197mb it turn into a Ntsc 29.9fps 1.3gb TesT.mpg file. Which should be formatted to an Ntsc 23.9fps media file. So hopefully I'll figure out what causing the media File to sky rocket to a gigbyte in size and change the audio 32hz to 44hz,.. here the spec:

[Pal format]
Format: Audio-Video Interleaved (AVI)
Duration: 47 min 13 sec
Video Info: 480 x 368, 20 fps
Audio Info: 22050 Hz, 63.7 kbps, stereo
Video Format: DivX version 4
Audio Format: MPEG Layer 3

converted into:

[NTSC format]
File Format: MPEG-2 Program Stream
Duration: 47 min 11 sec
Video Info: 480 x 368, 29.970 fps
Audio Info: 32000 Hz, 229.4 kbps, stereo
Audio Format: MPEG-1 Layer 2

The standard conversions for a Pal and Ntsc format media file, click here. Notice that their no mentions of an 20fps media standardize file,.. hmmm. So let's do some more checking,.. shall we?!?

Now I do realize video Pal 20fps reading might be false so I load up immediately "VirtualDubMod Hack version" app which btw popup a crash box error failure alert. This type error does'nt happen often with me using mod hack version though.

As for others having problems loading mpeg2 files into DVD2avi, the mpg on a SVCD has a riff file header. You have to remove this file header in order to process the mpg in alot of software. You can use VCDEasy or the latest version of VcdGear to do this.

Then I decide to click on to the advance button features which show some program disassembly informations. Which of course show some type of error in the file dealing with zeros which I guess it's a bad thing to have in your avi media file.





So I loaded up this time regular VirualDub1.5.4 which finally show the true information of the media file format. I was very surprising that it did'nt crash like the Mod hack ver did.



But if "you read farther above here,.." there a statement that mention by adam stating the media file should be 25fps and nox an 20fps avi media file. Which btw was true using this app to find out the true media format file is 20fps or is it?!? But also adam does mentions about animation film are sometime formatted in 20fps, but if im wrong please correct me.



Well as you notice it also stated a Pal 20fps media file above well how about Gspot?




Same thing,.. hmmm... so one more for good measure hey?,. okay 2.





So now im certain this media file is set at 20fps so now my biggest problem is to correction Video and audio Info resolution and sound: svcd 480 x 368, 20 fps 22hz to svcd 480x480 23.9fps, 44hz, 2 channel, 16bit.

Which bring me back to "VirtualDubMod Hack version" to strip out the ( now it has been converted to a Ntsc 29fps TesT.mpg file ) wave sound track file and use TmpgEnc to put the wave and video back (Multiplex) together again. I'll let you know how it went. Here 2 links ( below ) I had found while typing this up and looking into what can be done to make this simpler then it's look, plus get the compression, way, way, down and skip using TmpGEnc altogether.


Some spams on this above link.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=164771
http://www.afterdawn.com/articles/archive/sefy/encoding10.cfm

Edit: "There is some errors in this post. I'm hoping it does'nt sound too confusing, I'll have it corrected later on tonite and reports on the rest of it... sorry about that" Easter Egg click from your friendly RiaaCop.

Editor update notes: Number one I finally realize the best way is to convert Pal to Ntsc by using Machine514 how to post. Another thing that struck me is that the codec is format in xvid and might be causing the tool apps of reading false nfo on fps of being 20fps where should said 25fps pal format. Anyway Machine514 keep up the good work dude!!!

[lchiu7]

Having now required to do a PAL to NTSC conversion I have been reading around all the posts here trying to find the "best" way.

So far not so good.

Source is mpeg file captured from WinTV PCI card using Snapstream 3.0. It's in PAL format 720x576

I have tried:

1. demultiplexing the file using tmpgenc
2. running the mp2 file through BeSweet using 25 to 23.9xx conversion in order to fix the audio, outputting a wav file. (Out of interest I have performed the mp2 to wav conversion twice, once with no conversion and once with. The second, presumably NTSC framerate wav file is a bit larger)
3. encoded the two files using DVD NTSC template in tmpgenc

Result - no matter what I do the audio is out of sync and behind the video

Also tried (since the source is presumably interlaced 25fps) setting BeSweet to create a 29.xx fps audio file. This time while the audio is now sort of in sync, the pitch of the audio has been raised to a chipmunk level!

Finally tried something a bit more simple. Just input the mpg file into tmpgenc and loaded the DVD NTSC template and processed it (did change the video arrange method to Center Custom Size 720x 480

This time the output file is in sync and when I load it into DVD Movie Factory it says the file is NTSC 29.97 fps etc. Now plan to burn that to a DVD-RW and see what my DVD player thinks it is

Larry

[lchiu7]

Well this sort of worked. The output from a NTSC 29.97 video file which I then burnt to DVD-RW. On my desktop player it certainly output a NTSC signal which is in sync but the picture jerks when there is motion. This could be a consequence of using Bottom Field B instead of Top Field A when I processed the file using tmpgenc. If so then it's an easy way to do output a NTSC file from a PAL source which already in mpeg form

[scottymac]

I know why some of you are having synch problems. I have done many conversions that turned out great, but the other night one conversion had a synch issue and I could not come up with a solution until...

Most PAL SVCD movies are split on 2 disks, but if you didn't watch the end of disk one before you convert it, you wouldn't notice one important part. Sometimes at the disk change, the video will keep going for 2 or 3 more seconds longer than the audio!

I could have kicked myself for not looking first. So watch the end to make sure there's no overlapping audio or video. If there is, edit out the last scene with the issues (chances are, that scene is repeated at the beginning of disk 2), then do your conversion.

Machine514's easy PAL->NTSCfilm conversion guide

[lchiu7]

Actually I am converting "original" material in that I captured the material off TV via my tuner card. I did play around with taking the captured mpeg file (this time from Snapstream), running it through tmpgenc using the NTSC DVD template and adjusting the picture size to Center (Custom Size) 700x460 to take into account TV overscanning and Top Field First (field A). Then burnt the file to a DVD and played it. On my PC using PowerDVD it plays fine. On my DVD player it also plays fine but the picture is a little bit jerky on motion scenes. Not sure why since if I take the original mpeg file and author as a PAL DVD it plays fine on both PowerDVD and the DVD player

[WeBMaSTeR]

Having a problem opening the SVCD2AVI project file (*.d2v) with TMGEnc. While it is listed as a supported file, I get the following error:

File "*.d2v" can not open or unsipported

I have created the d2v file 3 times, tried to open in tmgenc with SVCD2AVI open and closed, etc. It no want to open!!!

SVCD2AVI - 1.77.3
TMGEnc Plus 2.5 - 2.56.39.143

Any suggestions? Any help?

Thanx

[adam]

WeBMaSTeR I assume you mean DVD2AVI.

In TMPGenc, go to Option/Environmental Setting/VFAPI Plug-in and find the DVD2AVI Project File Reader plugin. Right click on it and raise its priority. Keep raising it until its top on the list. Now try to load the d2v again. If you don't see this plugin than no wonder its not working. You can download the plugin on TMPGenc's homepage.

[WeBMaSTeR]

Thanx for the response Adam - what a dumb a-- I am

Never even thought about looking at the VFAP Plug-ins, I should know better. There is also another possibility:

Since I had never used DVD2AVI b4 and was just going to see how it worked, so the question is did I have TMGEnc open all the time so TMGEnc never loaded the plug-in or even know that DVD2AVI was even on the mach? IN other words, did I install DVD2AVI with TMGEnc open and never restarted TMGENc? What a dumb ___!

Since I already frameserved this puppy with Virtualdub, will try DVD2AVI on my next recode. Bet it wil work.

Thanx again m8

[[T]H3[k]R8v0n3]

Im new to those so bare with me. plz

I have PAL ISO/BIN Files...I did everything as instructed, but I ran into (2) problems/questions...

1) What is Frameserving ? Its not very clear, is the DVD2AVI process the framserving part ( I was confused, but did it anyways ) ?

2) When all was done, converted the audio, it played fine on WinDVD.

When I tried to author it with TMPGEnc DVD Author, I got a GOP Error...Now am I missing a step, do I need to do something before I author it ?

Please let me know, thanks

[aviationwiz]

I plan on converting NTSC to PAL for DVD's. Do I follow the same steps, just doing NTSC to PAL and not PAL to NTC?

[adam]

There is no reason to ever convert NTSC to PAL. 99% of all PAL tv/dvd player combos play NTSC perfectly fine.

[aviationwiz]

Thanks for the info.

[lchiu7]

I have read this thread with some interest. I guess I am a simplistic person with non-demanding needs. In my case I want to record a PAL TV program and author a NTSC DVD for US viewing. I have had success doing the following:

1. Record the program using IUVCR and the PicVIdeo MJPEG codec at 720x576 through a Hauppauge WinTV PCI card. For a 2 hour show this is about a 13G file

2. Processing that file directly into tmpgenc using the DVD (NTSC) template and outputting a 4.6G mpeg file

3. Authoring the file as a DVD using DVD Movie Factory. The resultant DVD plays fine as a NTSC DVD outputting to a NTSC only TV

Only one small issue I have found so far that might be unrelated to the process. So far I have only done sports so it's hard to see if there are sync problems of course. I did notice some tiny sync problems towards the end of a 2 hour game (up to one second) but they appeared to exist in the origianl recording so I might have some IUVCR settings incorrect

My experiences only. I haven't tried to convert SVCD, VCD or any downloaded sources - only material I originated

Larry

[cedenoe]

Hi there,

I have followed the guide step by step 3 times (well, maybe the first time I wasn't really reading it very carefully) but I have not been able to get a good NTSC SVCD out of it.
Of course, I know that I am doing something awfully wrong. Here is the scoop.
I get to the point where I have a good working PAL svcd. I demux the video and audio without a problem.
It is the last step that is killing me... When I multiple the video and audio together, I get a new NTSC mpeg that plays perfect but without any sound.
I have done this twice and it is still the same, no audio. I am now repeating it again to see if i did something wrong, which I must have done.

Do you have an idea where I am going wrong?
When you multiplex the audio and video are you multiplexing the NTSC mpeg file with the original PAL mpeg to get the audio from it?
Thanks

[lchiu7]

I don't do any multiplexing at all which is why I am puzzled why what I do works.

1. capture the video in PAL 25fps 720x576 in MJPEG format using the PICVideo codec

2. Get a large avi file, about 6G/hour

3. Encode the file using tmpgenc with the DVD NTSC template using both the same avi file for the video and audio

The final file I burn to a DVD and it plays as a fine NTSC video on a NTSC DVD player

Simple but it works for me

Larry

[Clydesdale]

This process was a disaster for me. I ended up with choppy video and out-of-sync audio. First problem comes in part 5 where he says "make sure the Encode mode is 3:2 pulldown playback". Well mine did not say this, it said Non-interlace. But then what? He doesnt say what to do if it doesn't say 3:2 pulldown. And the field is grayed out so I couldn't change it. This may be where I went wrong. I loaded an ntsc svcd template and encoded from there. Any ideas on why everything got hosed?

[Clydesdale]

Another indicator that something went awry. The original pal svcd was almost 1.6 mb. The pal svcd was only 817 mb.

[devdev]

hi

i need to convert a -dvdr from pal to ntsc

i dont suppose you know whether it can be done now?

devdev