Converting SVCD PAL 25fps to NTSC 23.976 fps

[LisaB]

Thanks Adam,

Though I though I knew about I-frames and GOP's very roughly, I didn't realize that different framerates had different GOP structures...I realize you have to re-encode if you want to change the structure/length of the GOP's....

[LisaB]

koic,

1. open AVI in VDub
5. do Audio-->full processing
6. do save WAV
7. open WAV in GoldWave and do a TimeWarp by the ratio 28.772/29.97
8. save the timewarped WAV
9. Use timewarped WAV as audio source and original AVI as video source in TMPGEnc
10. choose any 29.97 template you want
11. choose the option "do not framerate convert" in the settings

that's it

[adam]

LisaB, no most DVD players do not convert PAL to NTSC and no tv's sold in NTSC regions can play PAL.

Its a non-issue for NTSC encoded material because almost all PAL tv's are in fact multiscan and can play NTSC just fine.

[LisaB]

Doing a search on the DVD Player reports on this website, 80 percent of those tested supported MultiSystem Pal/NTSC Convert. That being said, only 121 of over 2600 DVD models were tested for MultiSystem compatibility...

My Fujilink supports PAL/NTSC, and I swear my original Apex 1600A did.

[adam]

Yes but out of those 121 how many were sold in PAL regions? Those almost always support NTSC to PAL conversion because it is so easy to implement. No actual conversion is necessary, you just have to modify the signal to run at 50Hz. The problem comes when you try to convert PAL to NTSC, and that's where hardware support is limited.

Alot of cheaper models do have support for PAL->NTSC conversions but there is no guarantee they will do a good job of it. Other than that, support for this is fairly sparse.

BTW: Most Apex's do have this feature.

[WeBMaSTeR]

Now you guys got me totally confused!!!

I am no expert - I just get by - so I dont give advice. But, since you said I was doing it all wrong and should do it your way, I decided to give it a try. In doing so, a couple of things came up that now make me confused.

As I mentioned previously, TMGEnc demultiplexes poorly on non-TMGEnc mpegs, so in my case (again), demultiplexing gave me a 29mb mp2 file. That ok, extracted it with goldenwave, converted to mp2 with TMPEnc, and got the 60mb mp2 file it supposed to be.

NOW, the next step (Step 5) really confuses me!!! You are selecting NTSC Film which is 29.97 fps NOT 23.976 fps! Is it really recoding to 23.976 rather than 29.97 ???

Maybe that is why I tend to have audio sync probs. Going through your tutirial, it is essentially the same thing I was doing (in different order) except that I would convert the PAL audio to 29.97 rather than 23.97?

Now I see it!!! The NTSC Film says 29.97 in the description, but the encoding bar says 23.976. So, it is really encoding at 23.976 and when I change my audio to 29.97, I am screwing things up cause I should be converting to 23.976!

So, it looks like I not confused anymore and will undoubtedly fix my audio sync problems by concerting the audio to 23 rather than 29.

I still content that TMGEnc sux at demultiplexing audio and that most of the time (at least for me) I need to go through goldenwave to get full audio. Maybe it cause I extract the mpeg from cue/bin with vcdgear (and it seems always to fix an error). Gonna have to try with isobuster and see if that makes a diff.

Thanx m8 - I learned a little bit more

[Machine514]

Webmaster...

WOW! Now I am confused from your post. You seem to be all over the place!

1. I have never had a problem with De-Muxing in TMPGEnc (and I hope I never do). If that is a problem, use another!

2. Step 5. Yes it does say 29.97 fps, buit that is not right. It encodes to 23.976 fps. I think that is a typo in the software. I say this because if you select NTSCFilm and cancel the operation of converting. It says 23.976 fps at the bottom!

3. Try ISOBUSTER! I think it is great! But make sure you select that option in step 1!

4. If you are doing Audio to 23.976fps, then do video to 23.976fps. Be consistent!

-Machine

[psil0]

I am still having trouble multiplexing the .mp2 file with tmpgenc. I keep getting an illegal mpeg stream when i try to load the mp2 file. I tried something new last night, and encoded to AC3. tmpgenc would let me load this file and multiplex it, but the resulting files was out of sync bad. Not sure but I read in an earlier post that someone had trouble when de-multiplexing the first cd of the ctp release of t3. That is the file I am currently working on.

[WeBMaSTeR]

I know nothing, but I do know that cd1 of ctp-t3 has an audio problem in the stream at about 29mb. The error is probably still there and that is why TMGEnc is rejecting it. I am not suggesting you follow my advice because there are probably better ways, but this is how I did it:

1. Open the mpeg in goldenwave and save the wav (I could not get TMGEnc to give me a full mp2 file - it was short)
2. Convert wav to mp2 with TMGEnc
3. Convert PAL mp2 to NTSC mp2 with BeSweet
4. Multiplex audio-video with TMGEnc

That will work, BUT if the audio error is corrected (like it was with me), your sound will be totally out of syn after the first 19 minutes of the movie. Try above, if sound is insync at the beginning but out of sync after about 20 minutes...

1. Open mp2 in Goldenwave
2. Locate the sound (or lack thereof) around 18:30 (it is just before she finds the empty pill bottle and says somethin like "damn drug addicts"). If I remember correction, 18:30 should be dead silence.
3. Set marker and add 0.063 seconds of silence
4. Save wav, convert to mp2, multiplex

Sound should be back insync.

Not easy and a pain in the a.... Like I said in the beginning, I wouldnt follow my advice as there must be a better way!!!

[adam]

First off, let's please all use a little tact. We all know that T3 is not out in any commercial form yet, so discussing methods on how to edit/fix this bootleg version would be a violation of this forum's rules.

I have noticed that the descriptions and labels in TMPGenc have fluctated with each release. I really think that TMPGenc's author is trying to name his options in a way to prevent confusion for the novice user, rather than give the technical names for things. On my current version on TMPGenc NTSCfilm is in fact labeled 23.976fps, but apparantly in later ones maybe it says 29.97fps. NTSCfilm is in fact 23.976fps, but its always played back at 29.97fps on a hardware dvd player, maybe TMPGenc's author was just trying to make that point or maybe something just got lost in translation.

[LisaB]

WeBMaSTeR,

Try using the tools in VCDEasy to extract from bin/cue -- takes a little longer than VCDGear or ISOBuster, but I think it is the best.

You might also try extracting the WAV with VDub instead of Goldwave. VDub will read MPEG1, and there is a version that will read MPEG2. This may or may not help regarding audio synch problems.

Film has always been 23.976 fps. Film is played back at 29.97 in any hardware player, which will telecine it on the fly. Since telecining does not change the time length of the video, it has no effect on audio synch. Audio doesn't have fps associated with it. I assume when you "convert from NTSC to PAL" in BeSweet, you are really just time stretching (or shrinking) the audio by the ratio 23.976/25 -- prove this to yourself by opening up the mp2 before and after conversion in Goldwave, and looking at its duration.

[WeBMaSTeR]

I know what my problem is with audio synch. It is just that I am too stupid to ever remember NOT to do it !!! lol

Maybe if I tell you, then maybe I will stop doing it and avoid all my problems. BTW, am only dealing with svcd. I usually extract cue/bin with VCDGear (will try vcdeasy) with Fix MPEG errors checked. If VCDGear reports any fixes, I know that I will have audio sync problems. It would appear that when VCDGear fixes the problem, it only seems to fix one part, i.e., video or audio, and appears to fix it by removing that part, and there u have it - an audio synch problem!!

If I had any brains I would uncheck that Fix MPEG errors thingy and that would probably solve my problems. But that would be too easy and appears to be too complicated for me to remember

Maybe I just unconciously like doing all that manual adding/deleting wav files (am getting pretty good at it!!) cause I cant really be that stupid to know the problem nd do nothing about it - OR can I be that stupid?

Thanx 4 ur input

[koic]

Hi LisaB. Thanks for the answer to my cry, but (as I suspected)
your advise did not work
That maybe my fault also because I did not mention in the first place
that sound in that movie was VBR (damn the guy who invented it !
Of course I saved it as uncompressed, but it already was ansynch
with the video. Next steps just made it worse. Looks like I stack with that AVI.
BTW, it's a Twin Peaks Pilot (with that awful sound), if you know what I mean.

[Machine514]

koic,

Restate your problem, I will attempt to answer.

-Machine

[koic]

OK, here it is.
AVI file 640x480, 28.772 fps, VBR stereo sound.
I want to make it playable on DVD, so need to convert to (S)VCD.

[LisaB]

koic, the other thing people might want to know is what video codec your avi is using. Some codecs never work well with regard to audio synch.

Another test is just to load it right in to TMPGEnc as audio and video source. Choose some 29.97 template. Use source range to just pick out a short section. Encode. Do you have audio synch problem? If yes, go back in and do the same thing, but this time raise the priority of the DirectShow Filter so it has higher priority than anthing else.

Also, audio synch problems are sometimes the result of errors in the AVI. Before even trying the DirectShow test above, make sure to load the AVI in VDub, do a scan for bad frames. If VDub finds any, they will be masked. If there are errors, then do video-direct stream copy, audio-full processing, and save AVI. Check and see if the saved AVI has audio synch problems.

[koic]

It's div3 - DivX ;-) MPEG-4 Low-Motion.

[Machine514]

I don't have any experience with avi coded files, but this is what I would do. NOTE: These are all trials...

1. Demux with TMPGEnc. If TMPGEnc will not demux the file, then try another program. I have never used any other programs to DEmux, so someone else please fill koic in.

2. Convert video with TMPGEnc. I would first try to convert to 29.97fps.

3. Now for some mathematics. Take the NTSC converted video file (created in step 2), and do one of two things. Get the exact number of frames or the exact length of the video. When I say exact, I mean it! This is how you are going to sync the audio and video. If you have a choice, I would get the exact time of the video.

4. Convert audio with an audio program. I have used Cool Edit 2000 before. Works well, but is really slow for me. Open the Demuxed audio file in Cool Edit 2000. (NOTE: If Cool Edit 2000 does not open the file I would then go to a program such as virtual dub and extract the audio in raw wav format so that Cool Edit 2000 can open the file.) Now once open in Cool Edit 2000 you go to an option like transform. Enter the same time (from step 3) to transform the file to a different length. Make sure you preserve pitch. Convert and save.

5. Convert audio to whatever you want. You fill this in with BeSweet.

6. Multiplex it!

Have you tried this method yet?

If this don't work then I would try to convert to 23.976 fps.

If not then I would send the file to Machine and see what he can do with it! If you are interested we can talk elsewhere.

-Machine

[scottymac]

I usually extract cue/bin with VCDGear (will try vcdeasy) with Fix MPEG errors checked.

THAT is your problem.

"Fix MPEG errors" is mostly to try and fix a video file that you know has errors. Your file should have none. (VCDGear will try reeeeaaaallllllyyyy hard to find errors and will "fix" what it has found, which is nothing, other than cause you headaches.)

Do not have "Fix MPEG errors checked", and follow this guide (Except for the last part where the TMPG says to Multiplex as MPEG-1 instead of "Super Video CD MPEG-2 VBR).

Your problems will go away.

[funkguy4]

This guide is kinda....well......more difficult than necessary. :P .Isobust your MPEG(s) to your hard drive. If you have multiple MPEG sources, and they're from the same movie, then just combine them together. NOTE that I will refer to this combined MPEG or the single source MPEG as the source MPEG throughout this post.

To go from PAL to NTSC on SVCD or VCD or anything really all you gotta go is copy the source MPEG to ur hard drive and load it up into VirtualDub. Then, in VirtualDub u select no audio and for the video u do full RGB frames (Uncompressed). Frameserve it to TMPGEnc and set TMPGEnc to 29.97. You should set the frame size to 480x480 for a standard SVCD. Make sure the "Do not framerate conversion filter is off", or else your video and audio will be unsynced. After your reencoding has completed, you need to mux this video with the audio from the original source MPEG.

Note: IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO DEMUX THE SOURCE MPEG TO MUX IT'S AUDIO WITH THE REENCODED MPEG VIDEO.

[Machine514]

funkguy4...

Please read all posts before you post. Most of the steps listed here are NEEDED!

Have you used your method?

If you uncheck do not frame rate conversion then the video will be "jumpy."

Trust me I posted and asked questions for a while before I made the tutorial. And I have done over 20 video conversions.

-Machine

[koic]

Machine514,
thanks. All worked OK. The key was to separately process video and sound
up to the very end , and then simply multiplex them.

[Machine514]

Good. Glad to hear it worked!

-Machine

[funkguy4]

I was just thinking that if you play the frames in a 25fps video at 23.976fps then the video will be slightly slower than before, thus creating desynced movie. The video is not "jumpy" as I have converted PAL to NTSC before and it came out perfect. TMPGEnc is good about knowing which frames to keep and which ones to toss, so the motion will still be the same. .

[Machine514]

The movie is not played back at 23.976fps. The DVD player converts it to 29.97fps.

-Machine

[Machine514]

Now I have a question.

I have some VCD's in PAL format that I have converted to NTSC. They are currently 23.976fps. In TMPGEnc Plus, there is no option to run 3:2 Pulldown on it. I have the audio and video in sync, should i just run Pulldown on them and burn them?

-Machine

[adam]

funkguy4 if you read the first page of this thread you will see that I explained why you should always convert 25fps PAL footage to 23.976fps instead of 29.97fps.

When you convert to 29.97fps TMPGenc, or any other encoder, simply duplicates whole frames. This will surely cause very choppy playback during some scenes. The proper way to convert PAL to NTSC is to slow it back down to film (NTSCfilm) and then telecine it to 29.97fps by breaking eah frame into 2 fields and then repeating the fields in a specific pattern. If you simply slow the film, both audio and video, down to 23.976fps then the hardware player will do the difficult part of telecining it to 29.97fps. This is probably somewhere in the range of 25%-30% higher quality, for reasons explained earlier in this thread.

[funkguy4]

I DO CONVERT TO 23.976!!! I'm sorry if I was unclear about that before! However, to maintain quality you do a 3:2 pulldown flag. The video is physically 23.976fps but when played back it's 29.97fps. I know it repeats frames, but that's the standard framerate for a TV.

[funkguy4]

Yeah, machine514 I need to know what version of TMPGEnc you are runnning, because I know that 2.5 and higher have the 3:2 pulldown flag option. I have been using it to burn XSVCD from various NTSC and PAL AVI's for over a year now. If you don't know how to set it here's how!

Click the "Setting" or "Configure" button under the "Stream Type" area,
In the "Setting" dialog box be on the "Video" tab,
Near the bottom there's a box labeled "Encode Mode:", this is where you select 3:2 pulldown.

If you have already encoded using 23.976fps, you can still do a pulldown using the program called "Pulldown" google search for it as my copy came with DVD2SVCD.

[adam]

I DO CONVERT TO 23.976!!! I'm sorry if I was unclear about that before! However, to maintain quality you do a 3:2 pulldown flag. The video is physically 23.976fps but when played back it's 29.97fps. I know it repeats frames, but that's the standard framerate for a TV.

It doesn't repeat frames it repeats fields, that's why the motion is smooth. Only when you encode directly to 29.97fps, without running a proper telecine, does it repeat frames resulting in jerky motion.

No it wasn't clear before that you were encoding to 23.976fps. Also if you do this then you must make sure the "do not framerate conversion" filter is checked, not unchecked.