standalone dvd recorder

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[/quote]I need the full spectrum of bitrate and resolution and MPEG formats. The standalone does not accomodate for that. It has a few presets, and that's all. If you're happy with it, fine. I'm not.[/quote]

I'm not sure if I get what you mean. Educate me please because I want to learn.

[holistic]

I need the full spectrum of bitrate and resolution and MPEG formats. The standalone does not accomodate for that. It has a few presets, and that's all. If you're happy with it, fine. I'm not.[/quote]

I'm not sure if I get what you mean. Educate me please because I want to learn.

"(quote)" to begin ,"(/quote)" to end ....sub () for []...... Lesson over .. ...carry on !

][

[thoots]

Hehehe. Time for me to join in. I've got experience on both sides. Let's have a look at the original question, shall we?

"I've got a lot of VHS tapes I'm putting to dvd but i find they have blocking and a lot of noise. I use a geforce to capture and so on, I'm just thinking would a stadalone dvd recorder be better and would the quality improve or worsen?"

I'll give a hearty recommendation for a standalone unit instead of a computer! Take special note of those who prefer the computer, who also mention how they "use it at work," too. In a phrase, these folks are "professionals." With professional equipment, professional software, and professional experience. What shall we call the price, folks, for "better than stand-alone" quality? For the hardware and software, I can't see it happening for less than $5,000, and my bet is that it's more like $10,000 for the true professional-quality stuff. Then, how many years will it take you to weed through all of the software until you find a suite of applications that you understand, and actually can deliver what you want? I wasted a couple of years trying, personally!

Let me tell you a little story....

WHen I started, standalones were WAAY expensive, and I decided to bite on one of the first DVD+RW computer drives, instead. With Sony and Philips and a bunch of computer companies behind it, that would be the format of the future, right?? Well, that's another forum thread!

At any, rate, so I started. I got a Dazzle Hollywood Bridge, and used that to go from VHS machine to the firewire input on my Sony computer. Later on, I got a "dedicated to video" Sony computer -- 2 gigahertz Pentium 4, two 100-gig hard drives, a gig of RAM, etc. I tried most of the "consumer" video stuff -- Ulead, Dazzle, Videowave, and on and on and on. I even wound up being able to try stuff like Cinema Craft Encoder, Canopus, and so on. Truly, THOUSANDS of dollars worth of software, by the time I was done.

"Better than standalone video quality?" I never saw it. I never, ever wound up with a DVD that didn't look significantly worse than the VHS original. Pixellated during any movement, blocky in the static parts -- it was really pathetic. And this was after hours and hours and hours and hours of rendering, with VBR, CBR, double-pass - you name it, I tried it, and it was just one shade of awful or another. Yeah, blame my Dazzle capture device, but the stuff looked just fine on the computer, but by the time the files got coverted and encoded and so on, it very most definitely wasn't worth the effort!

When I finally broke down and bought a Panasonic DMR-E50, I tried a simple recording at the "SP" speed. When I was finished and sat down to have a look at that on the main video system, I nearly broke down and cried! FINALLY, I had the kind of video quality I had been searching for!!

And, the recording on the standalone recorder was quick and easy -- no "overnight format conversion" sessions, no fighting with a menu system -- just get it done, and get on with the project. I made more recordings with the standalone recorder in ONE WEEK than I had made in TWO YEARS of fighting with the computer approach.

Anyway. "Greater control" comes at a price, and not just "money." You could spend as much time making that nice "picture menu" than it would take you to make your entire recording on a standalone unit. Again, this minght not be a big deal if you're a professional, and that's your job, but if you've got "a lot" of tapes you want to record, and you actually have some kind of "day job," how much "spare time" do you have to devote to this little project?? The simple "text menu" that you get from a standalone unit WILL get the job done, as will the simple chapter point marking system.

In summary, I couldn't recommend the standalone route more highly. At a fraction of the time and cost of the computer approach, I think that "ordinary folks" who can't make a career out of the task will find the quality and the utility of a standalone unit to be a perfect fit for recording those old VHS tapes to DVD.

thoots

[ejai]

I couldn't of said it better, I had the same experience and have the same conclusion. Standalone beats the hell out of computer, especially if you don't have professional equipment.

All I can say is "NUFF SAID".

EJ

[tommyoz]

After nearly a year since this thread started, I agree with txpharoah.
Don't know if anyone still cares about this thread but I can't see how you can side with the standalone. I have tested 4 standalones and you just don't have the flexibility as with the PC.

This of course is my opinion and everyone is entitled to that. Given the right equipment it is endless as to what you can do with a PC.

[ejai]

I remember that Next was the one to tell me about Mpeg2vcr that made editing my dvd-ram files a dream. Now I would like to turn people onto the next higher version on that same software from Womble, only this time it's a full fledge mpeg studio.

The program is called Mpeg Video Wizard, Now you can add transitional effects as well as text to your mpeg2 files. I no longer have to convert to avi to add text and effects.

Check out the demo at www.womble.com.

[Shannafey]

I work in production and we bought a Panasonic T3040 to make quick dvds. I can definitely say that when transferring professional Beta SP tape to DVD in the XP(1 hour) mode, I can't tell the difference from the original source tape. Even the SP(2 hour) mode is amazing. It is a lot faster than capturing on our Hollywood card and using TMPGenc or the onboard decoder built into the software, and a lot better quality!

At home, I have a Pinnacle DC10+ card and I use TMPGEnc and get great results, but I bought a Samsung standalone(same as the Panasonic E50) and the results are much better and it's MUCH faster and more convenient. It's nice to have both, since there are some projects I want a customized menu or more control. On that same note, I can use the standalone like a transfer card and bring the footage in and make a custom menu. The standalone is the way to go if you can only have one!!

[tommyoz]

I don't doubt that you can get great quality from a standalone but what i'm trying to say is that you can get the same, better or worse quality capturing to the computer. There is no limit as to what you can do with a PC if you have the right equipment and the know hows.

I read some post where people were saying that they've been there done that. How much were they really there? My guess is that they fiddled with the PC and as soon as the standalone came out they said "wow! this is so much easier and the quality looks great to me" #@*% the PC.
That is ok for them but they shouldn't put down the PC. There are many of us who don't mind taking the extra time to produce a more professional looking DVD.

One day I hope the standalones will be able to do what a PC can.

[FulciLives]

One day I hope the standalones will be able to do what a PC can.

I'm not sure when this is comming out but I read that SONY is working on a standalone DVD recorder that can capture to a built-in HDD at 15000kbps video bitrate and will then do a proper 2-pass VBR encode before burning to a DVD disc.

The lack of being able to do a true 2-pass VBR is the one big downside to a standalone DVD recorder so this is exciting news.

However since it is SONY I'm sure this puppy will be VERY expensive.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Capmaster]

One day I hope the standalones will be able to do what a PC can.

I'm not sure when this is comming out but I read that SONY is working on a standalone DVD recorder that can capture to a built-in HDD at 15000kbps video bitrate and will then do a proper 2-pass VBR encode before burning to a DVD disc.

The lack of being able to do a true 2-pass VBR is the one big downside to a standalone DVD recorder so this is exciting news.

However since it is SONY I'm sure this puppy will be VERY expensive.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

True - being a Sony means an automatic 20 - 30% price premium :P
Isn't that kind of overkill for the MPEG bitrate that the typical digital cable or satellite uses on its premium movie channels?

[FulciLives]

One day I hope the standalones will be able to do what a PC can.

I'm not sure when this is comming out but I read that SONY is working on a standalone DVD recorder that can capture to a built-in HDD at 15000kbps video bitrate and will then do a proper 2-pass VBR encode before burning to a DVD disc.

The lack of being able to do a true 2-pass VBR is the one big downside to a standalone DVD recorder so this is exciting news.

However since it is SONY I'm sure this puppy will be VERY expensive.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

True - being a Sony means an automatic 20 - 30% price premium :P
Isn't that kind of overkill for the MPEG bitrate that the typical digital cable or satellite uses on its premium movie channels?

Well the idea of doing a MPEG capture at 15000kbps is that the bitrate is SO high (for Full D1 resolution) that it is akin to capturing with no compression (or very little compression) ... in other words it makes a good "master" capture to then work with for the next step ... the 2-pass VBR which will make it DVD compliant MPEG for burning to a DVD-R disc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Capmaster]

Well the idea of doing a MPEG capture at 15000kbps is that the bitrate is SO high (for Full D1 resolution) that it is akin to capturing with no compression (or very little compression) ... in other words it makes a good "master" capture to then work with for the next step ... the 2-pass VBR which will make it DVD compliant MPEG for burning to a DVD-R disc.

It would be nice to have the option to go as high as you want with the bitrate. My Panny has an "XP" mode which is pretty damn high, but I don't think it has ever gone above 10 or so on the peaks.

[ejai]

One day I hope the standalones will be able to do what a PC can.

Well I think that day has come for me, my best captures have been with my standalone. I've spent thousands of dollars (yes I said thousands) on equipment that gives me the same, but at most times worst quality than my standalone.

I capture with my standalone and author using my computer, I have the best of both worlds. It takes less time to render a product that is better than any that I have done using the computer alone. Again I am very picky about quality, most people are not (even though they think they are).

Thats why when I was using the computer to create dvds I always thought in the back of mind, there has got to be something better than this out there.......and there was, its call a STANDALONE.

[tag]

Well the idea of doing a MPEG capture at 15000kbps is that the bitrate is SO high (for Full D1 resolution) that it is akin to capturing with no compression (or very little compression) ... in other words it makes a good "master" capture to then work with for the next step ... the 2-pass VBR which will make it DVD compliant MPEG for burning to a DVD-R disc.

I'm missing something here (perhaps, I suspect, because I'm sort of new to this).

First, why does it make any difference that the capture is at 15000 on the HDD when that will have to be reduced (as it certainly will) to some rate below circa 9500 in order to make a compliant DVD? I mean, you really can't use anything much more than low to mid nine's, right?

Secondly, if one were planning only to use HQ (or whatever the highest quality setting might be called on a particular recorder) and record no more than an hour on a disk, does the 15000 setting lose its advantage entirely? Again, VBR (versus a high CBR) isn't really going to do anything for an hour's worth of recording on one DVD, is it? I know I couldn't see an iota of difference, for example, (using TMPGEnc) between two disks, one produced at 8000 CBR and another using VBR (higher max rate).

[FulciLives]

Well when you capture at 15000kbps at Full D1 resolutions (NTSC at 720x480 or PAL at 720x576) it is similiar to doing an AVI capture that uses very little compression such as DV AVI or MJPEG AVI etc.

In other words if you are going to do a 2-pass or multi-pass VBR you need a source to work with. You can't do that in real time. So 15000kbps Full D1 is a good source. Yes it is still MPEG-2 compression but the rate is so high it really doesn't matter.

So hopefully that makes more sense now?

And yes you can't beat doing approximately 8000kbps CBR video with PCM audio but like you said then you only got 1 hour per DVD and how many movies are 1 hour or less?

Hell even the old Universal monster movies from the 1930's like Dracula and Frankenstein etc. were usually around 70 to 75 minutes long.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[TBoneit]

What if you used a standalone to capture a VHS tape and then edited the capture on your computer? It seems like you would get the best of both worlds using this method. Has anyone done this?

I currently have Pinnacle studio deluxe but I cannot get a decent capture with it. I have had one problem after another with it so I am considering buying a standalone. From what I have read so far the Panasonic E30 is very popular with members here however I want to burn to +RW discs. So I am looking towards a Philips DVDR985, Philips DVDR80, or Sony RDR-GX7. Any other recorders worth considering?

I'm on a budget So I bought the cyberhome Standalone, Caveat: it runs to damn hot with the case on!! I'm on my second unit now, running with the cover off it stays nice and cool. Quality looks very nice for $248 (Walmart). I didn't need or want the expense of a hard disk equipped model since I edit when I reauthor. I'm capturing from Tape and Sat TV with it.

I use +RWs (lucky i lucked onto a 25 pc spindle really cheap) trot it to my computer, rip it and reauthor it.

Most of my tapes look better this way, some don't. Thos I take to the computer, capture through the Canopus ADVC-100, encode (overnight 2 pass), author and burn.

Cheers

[tag]

And yes you can't beat doing approximately 8000kbps CBR video with PCM audio but like you said then you only got 1 hour per DVD and how many movies are 1 hour or less?

Yes, I see your point here. I would suspect the number of features that are 1 hour or less is close to zero.

It's my fault really, since throughout this thread you referred to feature films numerous times. I'm really only interested in my 18+ years of home videos but should have realized (much earlier on) that you're approaching this from the perspective of a movie buff.

Whoops!

[spiderman2k1]

I have a ATI AIW a Dazzle 2 and a Panasonic E80H. I think the MPEG2 in the4 E80H is the best. But ATI AIW has very good noise filter's. The new up coming Panasonic E85 will have very strong filter's for clean up VHS. Some VHS have copy protection and you would need a box to fix that problem I have sima copy master it's good only for VHS to VHS and VHS to PC not good for VHS to DVD rercorder. I need a new box to fix that problem.

[Kedas]

I have two capture card an older one and a more recent one.
(but notting expensive, build in with graphics card)

I do make some captures but I would never do a whole movie with my computer. (it's just not worth the time)

Yes, I know there are much more options with the PC but unless you really like it perfect it's just not worth all that time you have to put in to it.

I only want a fast good quality solution to put something on DVD.
I understood it's easy to edit the menus with your PC on DVD+R/RW without having to burn it again.

Anyone tried to capture a movie with his PC to AVI format to put it on DVD later? anyway good luck with it So how many movies did you do before you gave up?

[proxyx99]

Unfortunately still too many MPEG2 capture cards do not deliver on the promise. Just try to name one MPEG2 capture thing that is sharp, has no color bleeding, doesn't soften the picture etc. etc. You need to spend some serous money to get a device like that (plus a great deal of expertise). Standalones will take over, no doubt, just a matter of time (price issue).

[humbled]

Clearly there are those who have a need or personal preference for either the versatility or possibly higher quality which a PC approach might permit. But those who can obtain the higher quality are not just professsionals or close to it, but also they do this precise sort of work all the time.

I attempted to be one of the early adopters of mpeg2 capture and edit via an early ATI card, but realized after several days of prep that the only way I could do that technology was to do it all the time. It was too complex to re-master once a month. The variables are there to permit almost endless tweaking; but the skill to do so is not casually obtainable. I am pretty experienced at PC matters, but I do too many different things with my PC (and my life) over the course of a month to be able to use PC based capture and edit tools with ease (that is, to get out of them whatever benefit they might confer within a reasonable investment of time).

So for someone like me the possibly better quality of a PC approach is irrelevant. What do I then do? Until standalones came out, I did not do video . . . . and now that they are here I at least can use it like a VCR to produce DVDs with remarkable ease. And I could care less about measuring how much better quality I might be able to obtain with a PC because that approach is not practicable for me (even if my newest super-dooper digital TV could even display the quality difference, which I suspect it cannot). I can make copies of a few HBO movies a month at the same quality as I receive over digital cable (a compressed signal already) without even noticing the effort -- maybe 10-15 minutes each, depending on whether I go to hardrive first and have to put in my own skip markers. Deleting commercials from a broadcast movie doubles that time. I have made over 150 movies on my Panny E80 and haven't made a coaster yet (thanks in no small part to the guidance on these forums).

If I decide I really want to copy commercial DVDs or VHS, I will spend $200 on the additional hardware to hook in before the standalone.

I have copied all my home movies onto DVD-RAM with my Panny. Someday standalones will be much more exotic and I will do fancy things on them to my home movies. Until then I can, once again, wait. In the meantime, my golf swing still needs work.

People working in the video field can't wait, and I admire what they can accomplish. They are also less than 1 percent of 1 percent of the eventual market for standalones, which because of volume markets are eventually going to be very able and remarkably inexpensive.

Which is a long way of saying that this quality debate is mildly interesting but ultimately irrelevant to a lot of us and hardly deserving, it seems to me, of much heat.

I am reminded of a camcorder review in Videomaker magazine a few months ago. After rating more expensive digital camcorders, this cutting edge magazine then commented thusly on a comparatively inexpensive but capable Hi-8 camcorder: not digital, not sexy, but it still produces a better image than most TVs can display . . . .

[proxyx99]

Good observations. Ambitions of many may fly high indeed, but they are often reduced to a very trivial and humble reality.

[lordsmurf]

Unfortunately still too many MPEG2 capture cards do not deliver on the promise. Just try to name one MPEG2 capture thing that is sharp, has no color bleeding, doesn't soften the picture etc. etc. You need to spend some serous money to get a device like that (plus a great deal of expertise). Standalones will take over, no doubt, just a matter of time (price issue).

I did several side-by-side tests between an Apex, a Panasonic and a ATI AIW card using the same footage at 352x480 resolution. The ATI was sharper, though it tended to grab smaller artifacts not present on the DVD recorder (although none of that can be seen on a tv, only on a computer monitor).

Some of that ATI noise could be the fault of the coax wiring though. Something I cannot change then, though I can filter these days with an adjustable attenuator if I ever redid the tests. I think that would knock out most or all of the noise now.

The Apex gave the cleanest signal and exactly matched an AVI converted to MPEG in Procoder and TMPGENC both. But again, both were slightly less sharp than the raw ATI AIW capture. I know TMPGENC caused some softening when converted to MPEG2, but it was the first time I'd seen Procoder do it (mastering mode not used).

If I enabled the ATI VideoSoap, the signal cleaned up, but the sharpness advantage went away.

Again, this was tedious comparisons. On a tv set, a typical person saw no differences. Not between sharpness, noise or anything else.

The Panasonic introduced amoeba macroblocks. In 352x480, that is standard though on that recorder line (horrible Half D1 support). This WAS evident on the tv screen. This was the ONLY standout from the test. This happens on the ATI only if I drop down to 2.5MB/s VBR or lower. However, since this looks bad, I never use ATI AIW at that rate. I stay above 2.8 at all times.

I posted some of the initial findings of this test on the forum back in January.

- The Apex uses 352x480 VBR DC10 2.5MB/s with 9.8 max. LSI chipset.
- The ATI AIW was set for 352x480 3.4MB/s with 4.0 max and custom 1-2-2 IPB and I think it uses DC9, but that's unconfirmed. Theatre 100 chipset.
- The Panasonic, I forget. It's 352x480 and I think 2.5MB/s also.
- The other ATI AIW was set for 640x480 uncompressed AVI and then converted to 352x480 3.4MB/s with 4.0 max in both TMPGENC (DC9) and PROCODER (DC8?).

I was testing the recorders back then. I wanted to see how they compared to the ATI. I didn't know what to expect. I was surprised and thrilled with the results, especially when I saw an APEX could match an ATI at a lesser bitrate.

[Capmaster]

Good post, humbled.

I am fairly new to the standalone game - I've had mine about 3 months. I started my capping/authoring hobby in mid-2002 and back then standalones were too expensive and they were buggy (early Pioneers). I went the PC route. I spent the better part of 2 months really learning DVD and MPEG2, and learned more struggling with a persistent lip-sync problem I had with the original hardware.

Now, two capture devices and a TBC later I feel I have a good handle on capping from any source and rudimentary editing. I have found "the groove" to reliable captures. Never needed to learn frameserving or anything exotic because my project was to take the several metric tons (it seemed) of VHS tapes I had and archive them to DVD. Cap>author>burn ...with rarely even menus.

I averaged about 100 DVDs per month for 2 years straight. It chewed up most of my free time. Now I have about 2,000 good quality DVDs and the collection grows every week, although my capping has slowed down. I'm currently transferring all my commercial Star Trek TNG episodes that are on VHS.

I bought the Panny E50 this year as the next logical step in trying to achieve a VCR-free zone at home. To my chagrin, the damned thing tops my efforts at the PC quality-wise. And it's soooo fast compared to capturing (run time of the movie), authoring (40 - 50 minutes), and burning at 1X (45 - 58 minutes). It seems like cheating with the Panny.

The other day I decided to put it to the test and capped a 3:14 movie using FR recording mode. This is about an hour longer than what I would attempt at the PC because of stuttering and macro blocks with too-low a bitrate. The movie turned out incredibly good. This was repeated yesterday with another capture of 3:15.

There's no denying the results. A good standalone is a quick, easy, inexpensive way to get started and may be the only hardware you need, except for a TBC or macrovision stopper, if all you plan to do is the occasional capture.