standalone dvd recorder

[andya]

ive got a lot of vhs tapes im putting to dvd but i find they have blocking and a lot of noise i use a geforce to capture and so on ,im just thinking would a stadalone dvd recorder be better and would the quality improve or worsen

[oldfart13]

That will depend on the original source material, what speed it was recorded in, etc. as well as the recording device. Some people swear that the units like the Pioneer E30 or E50 make the output look at least as good or sometimes better than the source material (I always find that last statement hard to believe) but it might be very subjective and depend on a great many factors. You might try to make some test recordings at some stores if they permit it...

[ejai]

I have to agree with some others that sometimes the video created by these machines looks better than the originals. I believe the reasons the video looks better is because of the TBC and video enhancements features built into these units.

I am extremely picky, and found that the mpeg2 compression smooths out some of the rough edges and makes for a very nice blending effect. Sometimes it makes the video seem softer than we would like, and yet it can make some very grainy video look smoother and better.

I have some very old tapes that look better in a mpeg2 format, and some old tapes that look better as vhs because of the condition of the tape.

I've found that if the video source is great then the end results will be the same or greater.

Just my opinion.

[urbanlegend]

...the Pioneer E30 or E50...

Panasonic not Pioneer :P

[oldfart13]

Sorry...a long night and Pioneer's announcement of TiVO units that won't be sold in Canada since we don't have TiVO...

[txpharoah]

Anything a standalone DVD recorder can do, I can do better. All I need is my computer, my SVHS VCR, my TBC, and the ATI AIW card.

[thxkid]

lets see E20 or E50 is $449, a computer, TBC, SVHS(editing deck) and good video card $1000 or more and the end results won't be that much better unless your talking about a $1000 TBC then yes but then the price just went over $2000, standard $500 to $1000 computer setup will not preform as well as a less than $500 stand alone, sorry been there done that, E20 better when it comes to VHS or SVHS and thats with using very good JVC SVHS editing decks. and heck with APEX DVD recorder just hitting the market at sub $370 prices and dropping and I have tested it out not a bad damn machine, specially for APEX, so stand alones are looking even better. heck I tossed out all VHS decks(useless) kept one SVHS editing deck, gave away 3 other SVHS decks, went with 2 DVD recorders, the tape market is dead.

[next]

Anything a standalone DVD recorder can do, I can do better. All I need is my computer, my SVHS VCR, my TBC, and the ATI AIW card.

Not even close. Been there done that. From a quality perspective I've had significantly better results using a set top box. Time marches on.

edit - I'm speaking from a non-commercial perspective, non professional. Based on the tools quoted above I believe we are in the consumer world.

[txpharoah]

A standalone recorder gives you only so many options, in fact, you can count them on your fingers. A computer on the other hand... the possibilities and options for quality and presentation are only limited by your own knowledge and imagination.

I've seen what a good recorder on a good day can do. It can't come close to what I've been doing since 2001 (at home) and 2000 (at work).

[next]

A standalone recorder gives you only so many options, in fact, you can count them on your fingers. A computer on the other hand... the possibilities and options for quality and presentation are only limited by your own knowledge and imagination.

I've seen what a good recorder on a good day can do. It can't come close to what I've been doing since 2001 (at home) and 2000 (at work).

Compared to what? What models have you tested?

If you're going back as far as 2000 then you are back in the dark ages. I'm speaking to the recent advances that allow even Aunt Mable to rival your efforts with a simple click of a remote.

Like I said - been there done that.

"Aunt Mable" don't like PC's. But I've seen her productions and they look great.

Time marches on. Hello Michael?

[next]

A standalone recorder gives you only so many options, in fact, you can count them on your fingers. A computer on the other hand... the possibilities and options for quality and presentation are only limited by your own knowledge and imagination.

As far as set top boxes go the developers get it. The quality is great and it will get better. Everything in this world is market driven.

I have always sensed a reliance to the past on this site. Which in my opinion is a conflict - always advanced as it relates to comments and help for all of us which is so much appriciated - but non the less a concern about protecting the past. Time marches on.

If you are concerned about after the fact editing then I suggest you find a set top box that captures to DVD-Ram. You can edit to your hearts content on the PC of your choice.

[j1d10t]

I've got a question about set-top recorders; can they do VBR? Can you record to them like an HD, then tell it that you want to put (lets say) 3 hours on one DVD, and let it do a 2 (or more) pass to determine how to disperse the bitrate to fit the 3 hours on the DVD and keep it looking the best it can? I've never had any experience with a set-top DVD recorder, and am wondering how far they have come.

[txpharoah]

Compared to what? What models have you tested?

Pioneer, Phillips, Sony, a few more.

If you're going back as far as 2000 then you are back in the dark ages. I'm speaking to the recent advances that allow even Aunt Mable to rival your efforts with a simple click of a remote.

No, you misunderstand. Even using equipment and software from several years ago, I can easily make a DVD that is above the quality of even the newest DVD recorder. It'll take a little longer than realtime (about 3 times as long), but I can choose my MPEG type, resolution, bitrate, menu images, style, buttons, etc. I can have firstplays, multiple menus, bonus content, etc. You CANNOT do any of that with a standalone recorder.

A standalone recorder is little more than a digital VCR with some rigid menus that don't always cooperate. Editing functions are almost unseen. The TBC devices included in them are nowhere near the quality of a good $200 TBC (datavideo TBC-1000).

They're great and all, and I'll get one myself (for the purpose of replacing the VCR), but in terms of a professional-quality (or even a good amateur) video production, a standalone machine won't cut it.

Let me put it like this: the output from a standalone LOOKS LIKE it came from a homemade device. Since the same tools (or similar ones) that are used in REAL DVD production are available on a PC, you can make a homemade productions look JUST AS GOOD AS (IF NOT BETTER) than the discs made by the pros.

Just identify these things for what they are worth. Sure, they're great, and they bring DVD home to the layman. But they're not better than a computer-created project (done properly, which may be the problem with those that think a standalone is better).

[StrikeFire83]

Compared to what? What models have you tested?

Pioneer, Phillips, Sony, a few more.

If you're going back as far as 2000 then you are back in the dark ages. I'm speaking to the recent advances that allow even Aunt Mable to rival your efforts with a simple click of a remote.

No, you misunderstand. Even using equipment and software from several years ago, I can easily make a DVD that is above the quality of even the newest DVD recorder. It'll take a little longer than realtime (about 3 times as long), but I can choose my MPEG type, resolution, bitrate, menu images, style, buttons, etc. I can have firstplays, multiple menus, bonus content, etc. You CANNOT do any of that with a standalone recorder.

A standalone recorder is little more than a digital VCR with some rigid menus that don't always cooperate. Editing functions are almost unseen. The TBC devices included in them are nowhere near the quality of a good $200 TBC (datavideo TBC-1000).

They're great and all, and I'll get one myself (for the purpose of replacing the VCR), but in terms of a professional-quality (or even a good amateur) video production, a standalone machine won't cut it.

Let me put it like this: the output from a standalone LOOKS LIKE it came from a homemade device. Since the same tools (or similar ones) that are used in REAL DVD production are available on a PC, you can make a homemade productions look JUST AS GOOD AS (IF NOT BETTER) than the discs made by the pros.

Just identify these things for what they are worth. Sure, they're great, and they bring DVD home to the layman. But they're not better than a computer-created project (done properly, which may be the problem with those that think a standalone is better).

Um, I'm not going to try and debate the flexibility of DVD-Burners(computer) vs. DVD-Recorders (set top), but if you've been able to burn good quality DVD-R on your comp since 2000 then you must have had one pretty EXPENSIVE setup. There's no way in HELL that a sub-$3000 PC could have come anywhere close to the Panny E-20 back in the day, and it could be had for as little as $500 just a month or two after release.

[txpharoah]

if you've been able to burn good quality DVD-R on your comp since 2000 then you must have had one pretty EXPENSIVE setup. There's no way in HELL that a sub-$3000 PC could have come anywhere close to the Panny E-20 back in the day,

It cost well over $3,000. But that was then. A similar setup now goes for as little as $600 total.

Back then, standalone recorders were still in beta testing. They didn't surface for at least 2 more years.

It may take a little more time (about 3x time for me) to make discs on a computer, but the benefits of control far outweigh the standalone's benefits of speed. My stuff IS professional, so it must LOOK AND BE professional. That's the catch. At home, I make my stuff as closely to what I can do as work, given my hardware and software options. A standalone would be well below that standard I've set. Many others share this belief. For those that don't care, or don't know the computer method, then by all means, go grab yourself a recorder. Just don't try to feed me some story about how your toy will replace my tools, knowledge, skill and experience. It won't.

I'm all for the standalones. I want one myself to replace my VCR. But it won't replace a computer, that's just plain wrong. The comparison of standalone vs computer setup is like dirtbike vs motorcycle. Kinda the same, but not really.

[dcsos]

I'm gonna agree with TX PHAROAH
The quality of your realtime VBR on a stand alone set top recorder.. (The newest chipset in the E50 included)
doesn't approach what we can do on a computer


I have a $1600 component capture card that could capture from BETA SP picture that when transcoded to DVD would blow your mind
(TARGA 1000 ..7200RPM SCSI...Uncompressed MJPEG)

[bartman]

For quality I would go for a PC with a good capture card. I agree with most of the people here that not only would you get equal if not better quality but you would have more control over the output (higher bitrate, menu's etc. etc.)

For simplicity I would suggest a standalone dvd recorder. You stick in a tape, stick in a blank disc and press record.

It all depends on how many tapes you have and how much time you wish to devote to the project....mind you, you will have to live with the result.

It is akin to you having an audio demo tape. You could do a tape to CD record, or you can run it through cool edit and clean it up a bit. One will give you a better result.

It all come down to how much effort you put into it...more effort = better result (to a point).

[ejai]

I agree with Next,

Been there done that, I've purchased so much computer capture devices and none come close to the quality I get from the E30 and E50.

Just to name a few, Datatranslation's Broadway card (garbage). ADS Instant DVD (ridiculous). M-Filter Image Enchancement card, (bordering insanity). Pinnacle's Studio Deluxe (meat and no potatoes).

I have spent even more on upgrading my computer system and even video capture cards during the VCD age, such as several ATI cards. The quality never really measured up.

I finally made the switch to a standalone and haven't looked back once. The quality in the amount of time I saved is unbelieveable. Computers are o.k. for editing video and minor edits, but for consumer capture I will stick with standalones.

[CPimaging]

What if you used a standalone to capture a VHS tape and then edited the capture on your computer? It seems like you would get the best of both worlds using this method. Has anyone done this?

I currently have Pinnacle studio deluxe but I cannot get a decent capture with it. I have had one problem after another with it so I am considering buying a standalone. From what I have read so far the Panasonic E30 is very popular with members here however I want to burn to +RW discs. So I am looking towards a Philips DVDR985, Philips DVDR80, or Sony RDR-GX7. Any other recorders worth considering?

[next]

wrong post....sorry

[next]

if you've been able to burn good quality DVD-R on your comp since 2000 then you must have had one pretty EXPENSIVE setup. There's no way in HELL that a sub-$3000 PC could have come anywhere close to the Panny E-20 back in the day,

It cost well over $3,000. But that was then. A similar setup now goes for as little as $600 total.

Back then, standalone recorders were still in beta testing. They didn't surface for at least 2 more years.

It may take a little more time (about 3x time for me) to make discs on a computer, but the benefits of control far outweigh the standalone's benefits of speed. My stuff IS professional, so it must LOOK AND BE professional. That's the catch. At home, I make my stuff as closely to what I can do as work, given my hardware and software options. A standalone would be well below that standard I've set. Many others share this belief. For those that don't care, or don't know the computer method, then by all means, go grab yourself a recorder. Just don't try to feed me some story about how your toy will replace my tools, knowledge, skill and experience. It won't.

I'm all for the standalones. I want one myself to replace my VCR. But it won't replace a computer, that's just plain wrong. The comparison of standalone vs computer setup is like dirtbike vs motorcycle. Kinda the same, but not really.

If you don't own a standalone and feel confident enough to post then which units have you tested?

[next]

ejai - I'm with you. As a matter of fact we go back a long way. Remeber the comliant/non-compliant VCD discussions of 2+ years ago? You were right in the middle of that and we agreed then as well.

I spent many many months trying to tweak an ATI All-In-Wonder to it's highest quality. Stinky's MMC reg tool was based on my original ideas and Stinky spent countless hours on the project. I dropped out early and it was picked up by alot of hard working contributors. The All-In-Wonder was tweaked to its max. It's a great capture device but there is no way that it can come close to the quality of my set top panna. Period end of story. Not even close.

The down side of the set top box is the corny menues. That is why I have been advocating using DVD-Ram to import into a pc. With this strategy you get the quality of an excellent capture and the flexibality of pc software for authoring.

[ejai]

next -
I do remember those times, and would not want to return to them either.

I remember the long hours and tweaking to no end, just to get a product that doesn't measure up to what we can achieve with the standalones. You were one of the people that like I, were looking for that one device or software that would end the journey for video satisfaction.

Yes it was torture, the computer is excellent for editing the dvd-ram video to dvdr. It takes little to no time to complete a project. I can create 5 dvd movies in one day whereas it took me one day just to do one vcd movie.

I've tried several computer devices (ADS Instant DVD was the worst), from $250 - $1000 none performed as advertised. Once I decided to go the standalone route all was well again. I've made more complete movies in a month using the standalone than I did in a year using the computer.

ej

[next]

ejai - good to see you post again. We agree!

Wish I could say more but there is this pharo from texas that has lodged a complaint. I'm minding my p's and q's but just look at my post count!

I have no complaints with where we wound up and I'm sure you feel as well.

Lot's of work but it looks good - finally.

[next]

Guess not. I'm still stuck at 649 post counts. No reason to live now.....

[txpharoah]

If you don't own a standalone and feel confident enough to post then which units have you tested?

Almost all of them. While they may be better than cheap crappy capture cards, they are no match for the better cards out there. And the built-in TBC units are no match for a standalone TBC. Decent yes, but not the best. I need the best. Sorry.

I need the full spectrum of bitrate and resolution and MPEG formats. The standalone does not accomodate for that. It has a few presets, and that's all. If you're happy with it, fine. I'm not.

[FulciLives]

I've used one of the PANASONIC stand alone DVD recorders and I was happy with the quality. I was recording mostly from LASERDISCS and the quality (in the SP 2 hour mode) was so good that on a 27" TV the DVD-R copy looked as good as the original LaserDisc to my eyes.

The problem I have with the computer approach (of converting ANALOG to DIGITAL) is the fact that there will almost always be dropped frames. The only real solution to that appears to be the CANOPUS ADVC-100 (or the DataVideo DAC-100). I haven't used those devices but they sound like they work great BUT they convert the analog input to DV video and then you have to convert that DV video to MPEG-2 with TMPGEnc or CCE or MainConcepts etc. I would think that the end result would be missing quality due to the high rate of double compression.

TV tuner cards seem a better solution since you can capture using HuffyUV (for instance) but then you got that annoying frame drop thing. Even a super fast tweaked system seems to drop a few frames here or there.

It seems to me that the best solution is that new CANOPUS card (MVR something or other) that has the same features of the PANASONIC stand alone recorders (such as 3D adaptive comb filter and built-in TBC) but can capture at very high bitrates. For instance you can supposedly do your capture at 15000kbps for "optimal" quality then use that source in TMPGEnc to do a more refined 2 pass VBR encoding at a lower bitrate to actually fit it on a DVD-R disc.

I know that is double compression again BUT I bet a clean capture at MPEG-2 15000kbps is a better source than a DV capture.

Anyways I don't have that new CANOPUS card nor do I have the money right now for one but I'd love to try it out

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

Guess not. I'm still stuck at 649 post counts. No reason to live now.....

You are an annoying **** that needs to be banned. You already got WARNED for ripping on my man TX so what's the deal? I guess you do want to get banned.

As for TX ... when I first started posting here I thought he was a bit of an A-hole at times but I've come to like accept him if not have a "soft" spot for him. I don't always agree with what he says but he seems to speak with a lot of (mostly firsthand) knowledge.

I'd definately listen to him for advice EONS before I'd listen to your pathetic punk ass.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[txpharoah]

The problem I have with the computer approach (of converting ANALOG to DIGITAL) is the fact that there will almost always be dropped frames. The only real solution to that appears to be the CANOPUS ADVC-100

This is normally due to system problems, and while it should be fixable, it may prove difficult, so moving to a standalone is an understandable issue. As long as you're happy with it.

That Canopus card is actually not that good, it's just comes better setup right out of the box than even then high-end Matrox and DVstorm cards. The root of the problem with you having lost frames is either the system itself or a bad card (or several of them). I never have dropped frames, and I capture straight to MPEG2 at home and DV AVI at work.

You couldn't work real well with a computer, so you got a standalone because it was easier. There's no harm in that. According to my wife, I can't cut the hedges straight, so I've had an automatic hedge trimmer for some time now. These things happen. I'm happier with my automatic trimmer because it's easier, although clippers would probably give me more control if I ever decided to make custom patterns in the leaves.

It is in this instance that neither of us care... you for the expanded options of the DVD creation process, and me for making elephants in the bushes.

[next]

The problem I have with the computer approach (of converting ANALOG to DIGITAL) is the fact that there will almost always be dropped frames. The only real solution to that appears to be the CANOPUS ADVC-100

This is normally due to system problems, and while it should be fixable, it may prove difficult, so moving to a standalone is an understandable issue. As long as you're happy with it.

That Canopus card is actually not that good, it's just comes better setup right out of the box than even then high-end Matrox and DVstorm cards. The root of the problem with you having lost frames is either the system itself or a bad card (or several of them). I never have dropped frames, and I capture straight to MPEG2 at home and DV AVI at work.

You couldn't work real well with a computer, so you got a standalone because it was easier. There's no harm in that. According to my wife, I can't cut the hedges straight, so I've had an automatic hedge trimmer for some time now. These things happen. I'm happier with my automatic trimmer because it's easier, although clippers would probably give me more control if I ever decided to make custom patterns in the leaves.

It is in this instance that neither of us care... you for the expanded options of the DVD creation process, and me for making elephants in the bushes.

I realize why you quoted the gibberish.

But I have no idea as to what you meant by your response.

Please clarify because I've worked with all of the tools you mention. Although I have had similiar experiences they have not been the same.