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  1. Uhhh, think carefully about that murder example!!
    True, if I LEARN how to make a deadly posion I have done nothing illegall!
    If I make the posion and kill some-one, then I HAVE done something illegall!
    Now, WHAT if you showed me how to make the posion I killed someone with??? In many cases you could be as guilty as me. Did you show me how to make the posion so I could kill weeds in my garden? Or did you know I wanted someone dead at the time you showed me the way?
    Technicallity of laws.

    Anyway, good idea to teach things you know as a comunity service sometimes.

    If you own the software you are using on the computers you use, then you should be legal with anything your teaching. As long as you don't give out a copy for them to take home

    Myself, I would set up a network of computers, all running the same software and teach on those. You will run into MANY problems trying to teach on the students systems! For the least problems you need all systems the same and working properly before you start! No-one else is going to be happy if you have to spend an hour or two trying to figure out why joe blow can't capture mp2 on his system!

    I good thing to do when teaching software is to get a deal with the software developers so you get a few bucks if you sell their programs!
    Some will do that, others won't! Some even offer deals on thier websites for you to resell for them. Don't know about these video softwares, but Many others do it, I have sold software this way profitablly myself in the past.

    You should break it into various classes. Basic video capturing 101. Advanced Video capture 202 Dvd authoring for beginners and also an advanced class that does all the motion menu
    DVD burning, not alot there so it should be included in the other classes.

    Also some people may just want to copy or back up DVD disks. SO, you have a class for just that! Ripping, Shrinking, Burning. Be sure to make your own DVD to use as a demo to be legal! DO NOT teach ripping and coping using a DISNEY DVD That would not be considerd legal I am sure. BUT if you have your own home movie burned into a DVD and show how to rip and burn that, then you are prefectly legal since you OWN the copyrights to your own disk! If you want to teach breaking copy protection, then copy protect your disk! You still have the right to copy or authorise others to make copies of YOUR disk! Make anything, Perhaps a DVD of your classes
    Yes, record your own HOW TO DISK on DVD showing how to capture, rip, author, burn DVDs and VCDs. Then when they take your class they rip and burn thier own take home copy of your disk as a class assignment!

    AND that would help cut down on support calls!

    Thanks for the IDEA! Now that I have put some thought into it, I think I'll do what I just said
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  2. Humm - this proposal sounds like is't so full of "Ifs" it's not even funny - like are you going to teach how to conver only DVDs they have created (like home movies, stuff captured with a DVD-R recorder, exc.), or are you also going to include decryping and removing copy-protection from factory disks (to get a true "Back-up" of purchased DVDs (BTW no differant from rentals as far as method goes).
    I am no attorney myself, but the way things seems, I would think a lot has to do with known intent. Like if it seems to you that there honest intent is to simply back-up diskcs that they have purchased/own the rights to, for personal use, I don't see where there would be a problem - on the other hand, if they in anyway indicate that the intent even boarders or duplication to distribute to others (wether for profit or not), and you proceed anyway - it seems to me you could be held liable to because you knew their intent, yet allowed this to happen anyway.
    In addition, I just wonder how worth it that would REALLY be - since a little web surfing can reveil most of the basics on how to accomplish all that at no charge.....
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    Originally Posted by overloaded_ide
    Uhhh, think carefully about that murder example!!
    True, if I LEARN how to make a deadly posion I have done nothing illegall!
    If I make the posion and kill some-one, then I HAVE done something illegall!
    Now, WHAT if you showed me how to make the posion I killed someone with??? In many cases you could be as guilty as me. Did you show me how to make the posion so I could kill weeds in my garden? Or did you know I wanted someone dead at the time you showed me the way?
    Technicallity of laws.

    Anyway, good idea to teach things you know as a comunity service sometimes.

    If you own the software you are using on the computers you use, then you should be legal with anything your teaching. As long as you don't give out a copy for them to take home

    Myself, I would set up a network of computers, all running the same software and teach on those. You will run into MANY problems trying to teach on the students systems! For the least problems you need all systems the same and working properly before you start! No-one else is going to be happy if you have to spend an hour or two trying to figure out why joe blow can't capture mp2 on his system!

    I good thing to do when teaching software is to get a deal with the software developers so you get a few bucks if you sell their programs!
    Some will do that, others won't! Some even offer deals on thier websites for you to resell for them. Don't know about these video softwares, but Many others do it, I have sold software this way profitablly myself in the past.

    You should break it into various classes. Basic video capturing 101. Advanced Video capture 202 Dvd authoring for beginners and also an advanced class that does all the motion menu
    DVD burning, not alot there so it should be included in the other classes.

    Also some people may just want to copy or back up DVD disks. SO, you have a class for just that! Ripping, Shrinking, Burning. Be sure to make your own DVD to use as a demo to be legal! DO NOT teach ripping and coping using a DISNEY DVD That would not be considerd legal I am sure. BUT if you have your own home movie burned into a DVD and show how to rip and burn that, then you are prefectly legal since you OWN the copyrights to your own disk! If you want to teach breaking copy protection, then copy protect your disk! You still have the right to copy or authorise others to make copies of YOUR disk! Make anything, Perhaps a DVD of your classes
    Yes, record your own HOW TO DISK on DVD showing how to capture, rip, author, burn DVDs and VCDs. Then when they take your class they rip and burn thier own take home copy of your disk as a class assignment!

    AND that would help cut down on support calls!

    Thanks for the IDEA! Now that I have put some thought into it, I think I'll do what I just said
    SO far youve had the best ideas yet, but i would never network my computer with a class room full of people i dont know. you know there could be a hacker and he wants to wreck my class well its not gonna happen. i might install the software in all the computers to be safe, and Anti virus software and the whole shibang, but no network unless i know everyone and i know there not computer smart lol.
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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    Originally Posted by Red Barchetta
    Humm - this proposal sounds like is't so full of "Ifs" it's not even funny - like are you going to teach how to conver only DVDs they have created (like home movies, stuff captured with a DVD-R recorder, exc.), or are you also going to include decryping and removing copy-protection from factory disks (to get a true "Back-up" of purchased DVDs (BTW no differant from rentals as far as method goes).
    I am no attorney myself, but the way things seems, I would think a lot has to do with known intent. Like if it seems to you that there honest intent is to simply back-up diskcs that they have purchased/own the rights to, for personal use, I don't see where there would be a problem - on the other hand, if they in anyway indicate that the intent even boarders or duplication to distribute to others (wether for profit or not), and you proceed anyway - it seems to me you could be held liable to because you knew their intent, yet allowed this to happen anyway.
    In addition, I just wonder how worth it that would REALLY be - since a little web surfing can reveil most of the basics on how to accomplish all that at no charge.....
    Yea i was also thinking can i make like a contract like type it out and make it like this i ___________ am taking this class for legall purposes of only backing up personal and owned dvds. and so on and so on. something like that and i make 2 copys one for him and one for me would that be good incase he ever gets caught doing something bad i can save my own ass.
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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    I won't stifle the goals of a youth, but I've got to say... you're probably in for a rude awakening. This won't be ANYTHING like you've thought it up on your head. You're missing too many key items...

    1. Teach where?
    2. Advertise how?
    3. Computers, software?
    4. Examples? Teaching materials?
    5. Putting together workbooks. Tests/projects/etc.
    6. Handling the topic without straying.
    7. Pre-screening your students to avoid problems (i.e. a granny that has to learn what a computer monitor is, much less DVD-Video)
    8. Class length?
    9. Ability to follow-up with questions? (A business card that simply says dvdrhelp.com would be best!)

    Good luck, kid, good luck. I REALLY DO hope it works out for you.
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    Originally Posted by txpharoah
    I won't stifle the goals of a youth, but I've got to say... you're probably in for a rude awakening. This won't be ANYTHING like you've thought it up on your head. You're missing too many key items...

    1. Teach where?
    2. Advertise how?
    3. Computers, software?
    4. Examples? Teaching materials?
    5. Putting together workbooks. Tests/projects/etc.
    6. Handling the topic without straying.
    7. Pre-screening your students to avoid problems (i.e. a granny that has to learn what a computer monitor is, much less DVD-Video)
    8. Class length?
    9. Ability to follow-up with questions? (A business card that simply says dvdrhelp.com would be best!)

    Good luck, kid, good luck. I REALLY DO hope it works out for you.
    ive got everythin planned i just dont know where advertisment is easy just pass out flyers, or cards i dont knwo but i think flyers would do.
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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  7. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
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    I'll add a couple of things to txpharoah's list:

    10. client base? Though it seems like there's a lot of "localized" interest here, the people who post here come from all over the place. Can your neighborhood supply a decent customer base?

    11. Payment plan? Do students pay up front, or after the course? Atre there any guarantees based on the fee? You may get people who don't want to call you if they haven't learned to be self-sufficient, so they may demand a refund or further (free) training.

    You have a long road ahead of you.
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    Originally Posted by Supreme2k
    I'll add a couple of things to txpharoah's list:

    10. client base? Though it seems like there's a lot of "localized" interest here, the people who post here come from all over the place. Can your neighborhood supply a decent customer base?

    11. Payment plan? Do students pay up front, or after the course? Atre there any guarantees based on the fee? You may get people who don't want to call you if they haven't learned to be self-sufficient, so they may demand a refund or further (free) training.

    You have a long road ahead of you.
    i know but this idea of mine is still in its thinking process not in the im gonna do it this saturday.
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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  9. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
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    Yeah, Monday may be better. Start of the fiscal week.
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  10. It's like studing murder. You are illegal if you kill someone, not buy learning how to kill people
    So, if someone studies Al Queda techniques with Al Queda, it's not illegal? That Al Queda student won't get in deep trouble by U.S. authorities?

    i wanna make some money by doing this showing people how to back up dvds and i will only show them how to back up only their personally owned dvds not no rentals or anything and if they decide to do that well thats on them. so i will charge 60 bucks and i will teach them how to back up a dvd in only 1 day.
    People who own dvd recorders would most likely already be here or at doom9. Also, what if your client's computer is unstable and you can't get his dvdburner to work? Your client would bug you to get his $60 worth. You might end up spending days or weeks getting his system to work. You might even be required to buy new components for your client ... angering your client for the additional charges.

    More surer ways to earn cash with internet knowledge: create adult sites, create fetish sites, or advertise yourself on websites and go on "dates" with strange men promising them their wildest fantasies.
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    More surer ways to earn cash with internet knowledge: create adult sites, create fetish sites, or advertise yourself on websites and go on "dates" with strange men promising them their wildest fantasies.[/quote] woah woah woaaaaah i will not advertise myself and go on dates with strange men. i am a man well kid whatever, but hell no and well that idea is off even if it was for girls i can find my own, but for cash hmm lol j/k and making adult sites, i dont think so, do you think it will work oh and dont worry about me not being able to fix any problem on a computer i am like a computer genious so if theres something wrong with his/her computer i can probably fix it.
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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  12. umm, be glad everyone not like you on this site charging for their advise specially us long time members here, cause I am sure you got some of your knowledge from surfing asking and finding and getting questions from old pros like me thats been doing this stuff for over 4 years now.
    wow, just think if us old pros would have held are knowledge from this site and others for money, umm, maybe would taken these new members not a month, two or even three months but a good year to get this stuff down, crap I never had no place to turn to when I started out had to figure it out myself, then maybe I was stupid(or just a nice guy) and gave this info out to others so they can do DVD, VCD or what ever format they need to do. Met a few right on this site I still keep in touch with that I freely give my knowledge to them and to my surprise have been repaid in one way or another for my troubles.
    the biggest problem I see, is that you being 15, unless you don't give out your age and you look 21 you may find some customers may not beleive in a teenager, sad but true, cause about the smartest persons on computers are teens 12-16.
    good luck but be prepared for some rude awakening in people in general.
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  13. Is This Legal???
    It doesn't make a difference if it is legal or not! It's a matter of who's pockets are bigger. And who has the resources to argue their point. You darn near can sue anyone for anything. If you are sued for instance by the MPAA because they feel you have a relatively week case and would like to set a precedent then you better believe you will be sued and your legal fees will severly outweigh any meager profits you may have made. It is a risk as with anything you do like driving back and forth to work. The real question is.. How biga fella are ya?
    -FLASH
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  14. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    Sorry, this is offtopic, I'll be really short:

    Army teach you to kill.
    But if you kill someone when you are still in the army without orders, you are illegal. Plus, you are illegal if you kill someone outside Army, based on what you learned during your army years.

    Is army teaching war / killing illegal? No.
    Is a TV detail documantery for a murder (and how was done) an illegal transmission? No. You can learn how to kill even from a documentary you now...

    I don't know for other places, but in Europe any male goes to the army for a year or two. He learns how to use guns, how to kill, how to attack, etc. Even priests has to go to the army!

    What about martial arts? It is legal to learn them, but use it to kill somebody and you are illegal. Same example here.

    From the other hand, teaching someone to kill by knowning that he gonna do it, then you are illegal. If you teach someone to kill his wife (I know many people which wish to learn how to do this....), then you are a semi-killer yourself. But this is different.

    Al Queda's example is a bad example. It includes parameters like relagion, history, cultur, local interests and other varietions. It is a totally different thing.


    Sorry again for the off topic.
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    Originally Posted by FLASH397
    Is This Legal???
    It doesn't make a difference if it is legal or not! It's a matter of who's pockets are bigger. And who has the resources to argue their point. You darn near can sue anyone for anything. If you are sued for instance by the MPAA because they feel you have a relatively week case and would like to set a precedent then you better believe you will be sued and your legal fees will severly outweigh any meager profits you may have made. It is a risk as with anything you do like driving back and forth to work. The real question is.. How biga fella are ya?
    hmmmm
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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  16. Honestly, I'd say the legality is one of the less problematic aspects of implementing this. The technical details would be much more troublesome. There's nothing per se illegal about doing backups or teaching people how to do them. That said, I fully agree that if someone wants to sue you, they certainly can. With a small scale operation, I wouldn't be particularly worried- just don't be stupid about it and tell your students to go rent a movie to practice with.

    (But you can get sued for 'teaching' how to do illegal activities- 'The Hit Man' book being an interesting case in point (info). Who wins is often a crap shoot and how deep your pockets are matters.)
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  17. You also have to consider other factors than "legality issues".. a nice Federal Civil Case being brought against you could cost you your life without going to jail... ie, wife, kids, job, house, money, and then you have a court ordered pay garnishment for the rest of your life. I'm not trying to scare anyone but this is very probable especially for a company such as 321 Studios. It is just a matter of when the big boys get fed up with their slumping pockets and think they can work the system in their favor. If it ever happens, they will need to get a win right of the bat to pursue it further and they may not risk going after a bigger operation such as 321 Studios right away.
    -FLASH
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    Originally Posted by FLASH397
    You also have to consider other factors than "legality issues".. a nice Federal Civil Case being brought against you could cost you your life without going to jail... ie, wife, kids, job, house, money, and then you have a court ordered pay garnishment for the rest of your life. I'm not trying to scare anyone but this is very probable especially for a company such as 321 Studios. It is just a matter of when the big boys get fed up with their slumping pockets and think they can work the system in their favor, if it ever happens.
    This is just bad advice. No. This scenario is more fiction than fact. Can it happen? Sure. But I can also win the lottery, and the odds are damned near the same.
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  19. Not true.. look at DirecTV and their lawsuits against websites and some of the people who posted in these forums.. they are doing this as we speak and buiding case law for other companies such as MPAA. As a matter of fact, the operators of this website and certain posters could at any time get a summons from the MPAA's lawyers if they find out who is behind the post.

    Better yet sue the sin out of 321 Studios or bribe them with money to turn over their customer records as part of either negotiation. Then threaten litigation to everyone of their customers unless they pay $3,500. DirecTV is doing this also as we speek.

    Compile that with a possible cross-reference list of people who have rented an outrageous number of DVD's from somewhere such as netflix. I would hate to see someone have to prove their case against that. Especially since the plaintiff does not need to prove beyond a reason of doubt in a Civil Case.

    They would be in Civl Suit Heaven. What if the MPAA calculated a loss of profits due to this site and certain posters within it?

    Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself brother..

    http://www.freedomfight.ca/
    "This website was developed in response to pending legal action from Directv Inc. against an informational website known as The Pirates Den"
    To make it even worse and to further prove my case about who's pockets are deeper, DirecTV a US based company is going abroad trying to shut down websites and sue individuals in Canada.
    -FLASH
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    Originally Posted by FLASH397
    Not true.. look at DirecTV and their lawsuits against websites and some of the people who posted in these forums.. they are doing this as we speak and buiding case law for other companies such as MPAA. As a matter of fact, the operators of this website and certain posters could at any time get a summons from the MPAA's lawyers if they find out who is behind the post.
    You're comparing apples to oranges.

    The purchases made for the DirecTV devices were for illegal gains (although that point is hard to prove, as shown by several recent losses by DTV in quite a few courts). I'm watching those cases week by week, as they are inherently dangerous to the way we view law today. It is borderline extortion, and class-action cases against DTV's 'legal' practices are still pending in appellate district courts.

    Teaching a class on video production is not illegal. Learning how to backup your own media is not illegal. It is easy to prove that you only taught a class to teach video production of homes movies and DVD backup, and quite honestly, unless his students are under 21 (the target age for flagrant infringement), that's what they will really be there to learn.

    The DTV case is for a device that has only a few uses, one being security cards, ID cards, and satellite cards. Plus those are civil case that are on flimsy footing, and they have no chance to EVER get criminal cases due to lack of evidence, or reliability on unconfirmed evidence.

    The cards were MARKETED TO STEAL TV, where this kid's class is NOT marketed to steal DVD content - it is there to teach video in general, with specialty in DVD creation and backup methods.

    Plus the high-profile amounts and worldwide Internet marketing helped bring DTV to the attention of the devices.

    This kid will not get sued or punished any more than Baldrick would for owning this site. They are both safe.

    At most (and the chance of this happening are such a small percentage that I'd need to count the zeros after the decimal on both fingers and toes) he'd get a cease & desist letter.

    You're just over-thinking this scenario, and your grounds for judgement are unrealistic. Sorry.

    But keeping watching the DirecTV cases. THAT'S something the public should fight for sure. Suing people for "potentially" obtaining a device, when you have no real proof, and then accusing them of theft, and then WINNING A CASE is like me being arrested and sent to jail because that new butcher knife I bought for the kitchen could have been used to kill people or terrorize school children. WTF? Especially if I had bought the knife online, and you cannot confirm I even received it, much less my intent to use it, no matter how it was marketed. It could have been called the "New Kill Your Neighbor Knife, with throat-slashing action" and I'd have still bought it because I needed something better to carve my turkey with (which is what we're having for dinner tomorrow). <- Yes, I went knife-shopping today, because I needed a better one, and the wife nagged long enough until I caved in.

    Because big bad GENERAL MOTORS (owner of Hughes, which in turn owns DirecTV, which is also partly owned by RUPERT MURDOCH, owner of 20th Century FOX), they get to throw around money and determine the face of civil and criminal law!!!!!!!! I think we need some Department of Justice and Supreme Court intervention here soon. Keep watching. It may come to that in months/years to come. Sorry for the rant.. www.legal-rights.org is a good site too for this topic, as well as www.lawyers.com/lakeshorelaw/directv.jsp and www.dtvlawsuits.com

    Anyway, to the kid, Cecilio?, feel safe teaching, from a legal perspective. Your biggest problems are the business model and teaching style. Don't worry about law until you try to open DVD University.
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  21. Sorry for the rant..
    No problem.. I appreciate your perspective on both fronts.

    It would be nice to see this and the DMCA come in front of the higher courts.

    Nice chatting with you
    -FLASH
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  22. Some advice.

    Print out a form clearly outlining the law on backups and the intent of the course and have everyone sign that they have read and understand this.

    If teaching a group, many country clubs and senior centers, also high schools and libraries have computer labs. Getting a half dozen or so computers in one room will be your biggest problem. Perhaps work a deal where you teach an adult-education or general-purpose class with the center getting most of the cash, and you get to use the lab for your class with a minimal rental.
    Problems here would include needing multiple copies of software to remain legal, and finding a suitable site.

    Probably best bet would be one-on-one on-site instruction, each user getting what they want on their own equipment. Also lessons would be customized, with the variation in user experience levels this would be almost mandatory, anyway. How are you fixed for transportation?

    In either scenario, do NO I repeat NO phone support. They have already rented your hour or two, they do not get your off time. If they do, they will abuse it. The answer to all questions is "What time would you like to schedule a service call?" If you wish to spend more time on the phone than billing customers, then ignore this rule.

    A large part of service or instruction, and even more so with teaching a class, is personal presentation. You will need to make yourself more concise and understandable than your writing style indicates. Practice your public speaking, trying a part-time sales job might be good. Try emulating a popular local preacher or talk show host in speaking style. Not a controversial one, but one most people like. At 15, you have a credibility problem to fight.

    Check local newspapers, compare rates for classified adds with PAID circulation, not just copies printed. Sunday paper alone equals approximately the whole rest of the week. Check discounts for multiple adds, such as Adult Education, Computers, and/or Video. Carefully word the add, have others check for clarity, get an answering machine for the phone and/or keep a pen and paper nearby ALWAYS. Try putting business cards in camera stores and depts, check with manager first, get some card stands. Public library or city hall also possibilities.

    Newspaper will often run free ad on new business as news story. Pick a catchy name and or slogan or catch phrase, a "hook". "Tomorrow's man for Today's technology", or some such. Actually that's not so good, but memorable is more important than accuracy.

    The education and experience you receive from your efforts will be far more valuable to you than the cash you make. Go for it, but be prepared for less than ideal results.
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  23. Member JustJay's Avatar
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    Hmm... Curios that after reading through all of these post nobody seems to have mentioned that after he's done paying for a business license, paying taxes etc. the poor guy won't be worth suing.
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    Originally Posted by JustJay
    Hmm... Curios that after reading through all of these post nobody seems to have mentioned that after he's done paying for a business license, paying taxes etc. the poor guy won't be worth suing.
    You don't necessarily need one. Laws are different in every city.
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  25. Greetings Supreme2k's Avatar
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    Just hope it's not this city.
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    Originally Posted by Supreme2k
    Just hope it's not this city.
    hahahahahahahaha thats funny. a six year old girl gets busted wow what are the chances.
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    Laredo,Tx
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    well thanks txpharoah i feel much better knowing that its totally legal and i dont have to worry about the law . you really know your stuff
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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  28. hrm...

    would be cheaper for your "students" to come to this site or doom9.org and go through the guides....sefy's guide is completely thorough. also, there's plenty of templates that you can download for free....products of lots of trial and error on other ppl's behalf...all for free...

    also, there are always exceptions when it comes to dvd ripping/encoding...i'm sure i haven't used that many proggies compared to some other ppl..but i've had to use couple of different frameservers, ripping proggies, etc...to take care of any problematic DVDs....

    you gonna go through that entire process with your "students"??
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  29. Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Laredo,Tx
    Search Comp PM
    the answer is yes i will go through everything. and i wont tell them about this website till after i teach them and im also doing it to get money i need about a thousand bucks to buy my school clothes. ill probably need more than that but still ill get alot of cool clothes like that. and well ill try to teach them everything i know about backing up dvds. i mean the shit is so ****in simple. yea it took me long cause at first i was just by myself and then i found this web site. and i used only vcds for quite a while. then well i started experimenting and well i never did svcd well actually never i havent done 1. only a sample but thas it. and i remember one time, when i really wanted to learn how to make cvds i kept asking and well i owuld get answers but i still wouldnt understand. but finally i got it and im great at it now im better at vcd than when i started im good Xvcd or Xsvcd and KVCD im good at that but i dont think anyone can be better at that format than KWAG himself.
    An all in one guide for DVD to CVD/SVCD/DVD by cecilio click here--> https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/167502.php
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  30. I think if you're gonna have a class, Chapter 1 has to be titled "DVD-R vs. DVD+R, Which Sucks Harder?"

    That might be the ONLY place nobody speaks up!
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