ATI AIW drops frames - but only on one computer?

[lordsmurf]

Alright, I just pieced together a computer from some leftover parts and bought an ATI All In Wonder Radeon 7200 PCI card to go with it. It's a near match of my existing system.

SYSTEM #1 - This one is working just fine.

- Compaq MoBo
- 512 RDRAM
- P4 1.8 ghz
- SoundBlaster 5.1 audio card, no external wiring, uses the ATI WDM TV Audio Crossbar
- WinME on C: (master IDE1)
- Files captured to either D: (slave IDE1) or E: (UltraATA card, master IDE3)
- Been using this system since August 2001. No problems.
- ATI All In Wonder 7200 AGP
- ATI June 2003 drivers, ATI MMC 8.1
- ATI card uses AUX channel for audio, no wiring
- I can capture any format, MPEG1, MPEG2, AVI, DiVX, WMV, etc., using the MMC software (or any others if I so choose).
- Never a dropped frame except when I try to do too much at once (my fault), and maybe sometimes with WMV capturing.
- CPU runs at 60% max ever (with Heavy VideoSoap), but normally closer to 20% when capturing full interlaced MPEG2 with no filters.
- Memory usage during capture is almost minimal, staying at about 307MB. Even when video is NOT being captured, it stays near this number.
- CPU/RAM analyzed by Norton System Doctor since this is not an NT-based OS.


SYSTEM #2 - Drops frames like a bad juggler

- Shuttle MV42N MoBo (Click here for perfect specs.)
- 256 SDRAM PC133
- P4 1.7 Celeron
- AC'97 sound card (onboard MoBo)
- Win2K on C: (master IDE1)
- Files captured to either C: (master IDE1) or F: (master IDE2)
- Been using this system since January 2003. No problems. Borrowed a Pinnacle BungeeDVD, and it worked. Used a AverMedia EZ DVD Maker, and it worked. Supposedly, no dropped frames.
- ATI All In Wonder 7200 PCI
- ATI June 2003 drivers, ATI MMC 8.5
- ATI card uses the out-from-card cable to feed audio to LINE IN on the audio card
- I can only capture uncompressed AVI, and even then, it may drop a few frames, maybe 1 per 10 minutes. Capturing anything else will result in dropped frames, about 1-4 per second.
- CPU runs at 87-99% when capturing interlaced MPEG2. It will run 58-70% when capturing deinterlaced MPEG2.
- Memory usage is 135MB during capture.


My attempts so far:

- I tested out several programs, including VirtualDub and the ones left over from the Aver and Pinnacle tests (NeoDVD4 and WinDVR). They still drop frames. HuffyUV, MJPEG, MPEG1, DIVX, you name it. It drops. Only uncompressed AVI in the RAW format will capture with any kind of "success".
- I took out the stick of 128MB PC100 RAM, just in case it was RAM conflicts.
- I defragged the HD.
- There are NO PROCESSES unnecessarily running (that I'm aware of). I looked, though I may research every single component here soon. Click here to see what I have running.
- For the purposes of this test, I'm trying out the factory settings in MMC, although I use custom ones normally. The custom ones fail worse than the factory settings.

What's next?

Better RAM? My thoughts right now are to rip out the SDRAM and put in some DDR RAM. The MoBo supports either one (and yes, I know that doesn't mean together).

The audio card? Maybe, I can try to put in another one, though I do not have access to another SoundBlaster.

Better processor? Yeah, I know it's only a Celeron, but seeing that past products performed well, I doubt this is the issue.

ATI sucks? No sorry, that's not it either. I've been running the other system for almost 2 years, and have hundreds of DVDs that can prove it is an excellent card.

Ask txpharoah because he's an ATI user? Nope, I already asked him, he's got no answer for me (first person I went to). He said to post and ask housepig, silky, adam and a few others I don't remember (would need to check email for the list).

Try a different version of ATI MMC? I guess, but seeing how other programs are doing no better, I barely see the point in it.

Alright, I think I've given enough details. Please somebody, anything would be great.

I'll keep looking for answers, but maybe somebody out there has experience at this. Having backup hardware is nice, but it'd be even better if I could use it properly.

[andkiich]

Just a couple of things that I am noticing right off that MAY cause an issue.

On the machine with issues, you've got a PCI video card, which is not as fast as the AGP.

And it might just be me, but the CPU utilization seems to be on the high side. My CPU usage runs somewhere between 9% and 25%.

Have not heard good things about the newer MMC.

There are actually a lot of things that could be issues.

[Sartori]

Hello lord of the smurfs , aandkiich has most of it wrapped , other than obvious stuff like DMA not turned on , it could be the mobo soundcard - I seem to remember this being a point long ago , but my favourites would be
1.motherboard drivers not installed or installed incorrectly , for other people this bit (not you as you`re running PCi) specifically the VIA AGP Driver
2.ati drivers not installed correctly/corrupted , with the 30 million steps required to install ati drivers in their specific order . Some combinations of drivers with my motherboard never saw eye to eye and like yours dropped like a bastard as well .
3.DX9 and the other MS prog installed ?

I`d try finding the guide to removing the ATi drivers , and then reinstalling a set of earlier drivers and mmc that are proven . To prove the soundcard point try capturing with no sound .
I would have gone for the DMA being at fault , but that would have been a problem with capturing uncompressed avis as well .
On the point about your processor , my old Pentium 2 550 never dropped frames even with full screen caps , and neither did my Celeron 900 .
Make sure you capturing to the slave drive ie not the one with your swap file on , your F: drive I assume .
To reiterate andkiichs point above the newest MMC is a little bugger for working right , I`m running a combination of new MMC and old capture drivers - if you check all my posts , you`ll see it in one of them , a run down of how I got mine to work .


My spec :
SOYO Platinum Dragon mobo with 2.1G Athlon
Audigy
512k Ram
ATi AIW Radeon

And you`re right , they are lovely capturers (when they do)

Hope this helps , feel free to ask about any points that I`ve been unclear about .

[Spicuzza]

lordsmurf,

I would bet money the problem is your on board sound.

Simply disable your on board sound and put your SoundBlaster 5.1 from the other machine into the problem computer and see if that cures the problem.

It's worth a try and won't cost you anything since you can experiment with hardware you already have.

[mastersmurfie]

lordsmurf...you helped me once, so I thought I'd offer my 2 cents worth...

Spicuzza is probably right on...I used the same on-board audio-AC'97...had nothing but trouble (many dropped frames, distorted audio, high CPU usage...etc) Then I got a new PCI sound card (Philips AcousticEdge)...also, I had many problems with ATIs newest MMC and reverted back to 7.6...ZERO problems since...cept when I forget to close email when capturing ...then I lose about 1% of frames...and I use a VERY old ATI AIW 128 PRO

[Sulik]

In case it's a cpu usage problem (the celerons have a very small cache), you can try to lower the motion estimation preset in the MPEG-2 advanced settings to see if it makes a difference.

[lordsmurf]

Well, as of this moment, I can capture CBR interlaced MPEG2 at 352x480 at bitrates under 5.0 MB/s.

Out of the 593,406 frames it recorded on a 5½ hour tape I put in overnight, it only dropped 125 frames, which amount to about 0.0002% of the video. I'm still gritting my teeth a bit, but that's better than the 1fps drops and other ones I'd gotten along the way (as much as 40% sometimes ).

While that would annoy many users, including myself on other projects, it will suffice for the the purpose of the system (cartoon conversions from old tapes). The source tape may very well have caused some of those drops, so I'll just be happy it's working for now.

1. I removed the June 2003 drivers and replaced them with Feb 2003 drivers. The system recovered right away, and dropped less frames.

2. I also reverted back to MMC 7.7 (the MMC suggested to accopmany those Feb 2003 drivers). It got better right away, dropping no frames for up to 10 minutes. After that, it was a VBR issue.

3. As far as PCI being slower than AGP, at least from the capturing perspective and not the graphics perspective, I'm not too sure that has much effect on it. I know about several pro cards that are PCI and I only wish I had the $1300 for them. If anybody has information on this aspect, I'm all ears.

4. I cannot capture VBR. Period. I cannot capture 720x480. Period. I cannot capture deinterlaced MPEG2. I cannot capture anything other than MPEG1, MPEG2, or uncompressed AVI (not MJPEG or Huffy). I cannot use high bitrates. 'Cannot' meaning it will drop frames otherwise.

5. My motherboard is a hybrid of VIA chipsets and some other stuff. I didn't pay top dollar (in fact I bought the cheapest one around that supported my free processor), so I'm not too shocked. I updated the motherboard BIOS (which took a while since I forget to install a floppy drive! ) and upgraded the Win2K VIA 4-in-1 drivers. As per suggestions elsewhere, the ATI card overwrites drivers when it shouldn't. So after installing the ATI drivers, re-install the VIA 4-in-1 drivers.

6. I still have the same sound card, though that's next to go if I get any more problems. The AC'97 is a VIA product too. I'm on the watch for sales at this time.

7. I have extra DDR RAM in hand, but have yet to install it. The PC133 SDRAM seems to be fine (and should be considering some G4 Macs I've seen 'only' have SDRAM and cannot use DDR RAM). If something goes wrong again, DDR's going in. Since it is borrowed, I'm on the watch for good sales.

8. Given that ATI is useless as a company (for tech support), I'd suggest people only buy the newer products or ones setup by an OEM. My AGP one was setup by Compaq, so I never had this problem to deal with, outside of the occassional driver "upgrade" that turned out to be junk software. While I'd still support ATI, I'll be sure to footnote this bad experience with any of my future suggestions.

9. All of my drives are DMA.

10. I did lower the motion estimation from my preference of 99 to a mere 80. The ATI software comes shipped with 75 set, so I think it'll still look alright.

11. Processor usage is still high, but given that this is a Celeron, I'm not surprised. It operate in the 70-80% range, and peaks in the 90s every now and then. This system is bare-bones with network cables pulled, so nothing is bothering it software-wise as far as I can see.

12. I tinkered in the BIOS. Turned AGP down to 1x since no AGP card in use. Had to reset RAM to 133 instead of 100. Turned off all needed devices that were onboard.

13. I dropped from 1/4/2 IPB to 1/1/1 IPB capturing. So just 1 on each. That helped too.

This isn't over yet, so keep posting suggestions if you have any. I'd still like 720x480 at high bitrates at my disposal. When the sale ads come out tomorrow, I'll look for a new soundcard and some DDR RAM.

[Sulik]

3 things: PCI AIW, VIA, and Celeron+SDRAM (scary combination).

Videocapture may have to display the screen while capturing, which could take most of the CPU right there on a PCI graphics card at high resolutions (Make sure you disable Easylook in MMC 8.5).
First of all I'd make sure all filters (videosoap) are disabled.

IDE, graphics and audio will all compete for accessing the PCI bus, and there might just be not enouch bandwidth at 720x480.

[lordsmurf]

In the future, I may try MMC 8.1 again, but it appears 7.7 is more stable. At least from my tests on the problematic system.

I captured a 50-minute wedding video (horrid condition) and it dropped 23 frames. This was with the setup I had in my last post. Settings were 352x480 with 4.9 MB/s and motion at 80.

I ripped out the SDRAM, replaced with a 256MB stick of DDR RAM, added a SoundBlaster I borrowed from yet another person, and then proceeded to disable everything in the BIOS. I don't use any of the ports (USB,serial,parallel,etc) and don't need all of that turned on - ya' never know what's causing the problems!

And again, I lowered my motion estimation to the default value of 75, just in case my push to 80 gave it trouble.

As of right now, I just took out a 55-minute cartoon video that had 0 dropped frames, using 352x480 4.0 MB/s. I've got another cartoon video, about 26 minutes through (and is another horrid quality tape from the 80s) and so far, 0 dropped frames - same settings.

Trying to deinterlace MPEG2 still drops (not something I'd do anyhow), and I've not yet tried the 720x480 capture setting. For VHS, the 352x480 interlaced is fine for now. The encodes I'm getting look alright. I'd like full 99/100 motion estimate, but this'll have to do for now.

I've shrunk the video screen to a small size on screen (in case it eats too much resources), and am running the task manager's info screen to monitor CPU/RAM usage. For some odd reason, having that screen up seems to make the system more stable while capturing (?).

I don't know how to disable EasyLook. I looked several times before I ditched the 8.x MMC on the problem system. However, I'llt ry 8.1 again down the road, so if anybody knows how to do it, I'd like to know.

Ya'lls suggestions have been great so far... Keep 'em coming.

[andkiich]

Some other things:

If you're connected to the internet either through dial up or broadband, disconnect the cable. You'll get a lot of pngs that your machine will automatically respond to, whether you like it or not.

If you have your desktop resolution set high, turn it down along with the color depth(16-bit should be fine).

If these are older hard drives, they may not be up to the task of volume of data you are throwing at it. Is a defrag in order? Possibly, you might need to increase your Windows swap file(virtual ram).

[lordsmurf]

If you're connected to the internet either through dial up or broadband, disconnect the cable. You'll get a lot of pngs that your machine will automatically respond to, whether you like it or not.

LAN is disabled on the motherboard. No connection possible, no cable plugged in.

If you have your desktop resolution set high, turn it down along with the color depth(16-bit should be fine).

The ATI card requires a 32-bit depth for capture (not an unreasonable requirement considering the ATI Radeon graphics card is providing the graphics for you, not relying on some other device). MMC will refuse to start properly or capture properly at any other depth. Resolution only set at 1024x768 (requirement for the DVD applications).

If these are older hard drives, they may not be up to the task of volume of data you are throwing at it.

Nope. These are 7200 rpm drives in DMA mode.

Is a defrag in order?

Done that. Twice.

Possibly, you might need to increase your Windows swap file(virtual ram).

Windows 2000 is set to use as much as it wants, and I have plenty of space.

[Nelson37]

Looks like your covering all the bases, the compressed versus uncompressed results indicate it is a CPU issue. Try Overclocking slightly to see if the faster processor speed gives any benefit. Cheapo Mobo is probably not helping any.

I would also try eliminating sound altogether for a test.

[lordsmurf]

Looks like your covering all the bases, the compressed versus uncompressed results indicate it is a CPU issue. Try Overclocking slightly to see if the faster processor speed gives any benefit. Cheapo Mobo is probably not helping any. I would also try eliminating sound altogether for a test.

After disabling the onboard sound and adding a PCI SoundBlaster 5.1 card, a lot of my troubles went away. The no-sound test did show better results, and that is when I added the SoundBlaster over the AC97 onboard. I can now capture at 352x480 just fine.

It is only 720x480 MPEG2 and any kind of AVI (Huffy,Divx,MJPEG) that give problems. The MPEG1 captures also look bad, but I plan to test that some more. It's slowly moving up to the quality of my primary system's ATI card performance.

I'll PM you about potential overclocking of the CPU. Right now, I've lowered the motion estimation on the MPEG encoding. That seems to work, and I'm not noticing any quality degradation from the lower setting.

I insisted on a cheap do-it-yourself project, and I'm probably getting what I deserve because of it. I'm sure all these hardware items work great in other systems, just not all together.

[andkiich]

Lordsmurf,

I was unaware that the ATI required the color depth to be 32-bit for captures. Thanks for the info on that.

Otherwise, if the other things you are trying now will not make it substantially better, then I am at a loss of what else to tel you to try.

I'm surprised that txpharoah hasn't responded with anything yet. He seems to be a wiz when it somes to the ATI cards.

Good luck, and sorry that I was unable to help you out any more than what I did.

[next]

great thread. here's one for everybody. i must admit that its been a while since i focused on capturing but i decided to post because i'm suprised at the results.

i decided to slap together a pc with alot of old parts. i do not have the specific run down of the parts but a high level view is the following:

AMD 750 mhz slot A cpu
256 megs of pc100 ram
ati aiw 32 meg 128 pro
older philips rythmic edge sound card
not sure of the mb at the moment
120 gig 8 meg cache maxtor hd
not sure of the rest but i'll report back with more specifics if it warrants it.

like i said i slapped the parts together and set up an entertainment style home brewed dvr like thing - hooked it into my entertainment center. svideo out from a digital cable box to the aiw. my suprise came after i began playing around with it.

its been a while as it relates to capturing but to make a long story short i have been able to capture with no frame loss using the high quality dvd preset in mmc - the preset at the top of the list when setting things up in the digital vcr (7.7 i believe - at work at the moment so not real sure). this really suprised me. i can not ever recall being able to do this in the past.

its been a while but again it suprised me. normal? not sure. anybody else have similiar results?

xp pro is the operating system.

edit - i should add that i played back the captures using powerdvd and using the information feature was able to see that the bit rate was in fact at the levels that again suprised me. 6 to 8 mbs on average.

[txpharoah]

anybody else have similiar results?

Yeah, both of my cards all installed without a hitch. A 7200 AGP and a 7500 AGP. My only troubles have been drivers and MMC updates.

I'm surprised that txpharoah hasn't responded with anything yet. He seems to be a wiz when it somes to the ATI cards.

We e-mail'ed privately. I didn't know what to do either, outside of what he already tried and planned to try.

[next]

My point was that I was able to get full DVD resolution using the mmc high quality DVD preset on a box with an AMD 750mhz cpu with no frame drops. I don't recall being able to do this in the past.

Not too sure if it plays into this thread but it seems like an underpowered box to get the results I'm seeing.

[Nelson37]

Next, its your hard drive. With modern high speed and 8 MB cache, that pretty much eliminates the frame drop bottleneck.

[next]

Nelson - I agree. Has to be.

A couple of years ago I was the ultimate tweaker as it relates to the AIW and capturing. As a matter of fact the whole MMC reg tool that Stinky developed was originally a colaberation between him and myself. He did all of the work but I still think he credited me in all of his releases. He worked hard. Eventually incorporated the macro free tweak as well.

Amazing what the right hard drive will do. I wish I would have known then. Still suprised that an AMD 750 relic can do full DVD resolution with an old AIW 128 but time marches on.

[oaddington]

Hey,

I'm going absolutly livid here trying ot capture some video. Using and Radeon 7200 DDR VIVO MMC 8.5 all the latest drivers, everything is installed and all I get when I try to launch that app. it "Unable to start V"

I've browesed the web for hours, and am in the process of these forums... been in here for awhile, any advice would thrill me

thanks a lot.

[next]

Hey,

I'm going absolutly livid here trying ot capture some video. Using and Radeon 7200 DDR VIVO MMC 8.5 all the latest drivers, everything is installed and all I get when I try to launch that app. it "Unable to start V"

I've browesed the web for hours, and am in the process of these forums... been in here for awhile, any advice would thrill me

thanks a lot.

DVD-Ram

[lordsmurf]

Hey,
I'm going absolutly livid here trying ot capture some video. Using and Radeon 7200 DDR VIVO MMC 8.5 all the latest drivers, everything is installed and all I get when I try to launch that app. it "Unable to start V"
I've browesed the web for hours, and am in the process of these forums... been in here for awhile, any advice would thrill me
thanks a lot.

Roll back your drivers to the previous version (next to the most updated, as found on ATI.com) and go back to MMC 7.7 or MMC 8.1. I had to do that on my second computer. It refuses newest drivers, as well as the 8.x series of MMC. Some computers are just a pain.

[mic_]

I can tell you this: your celeron should certainly be fast enough not to drop any frames (given a good source). I've been doing captures on a near-antique computer, specs below:

PII 450 MHz
384MB PC133 SDRAM
Slow (5400 rpm i reckon) and badly fragmented HDD
On-board SB-compatible soundcard (ESS Maestro iirc)
ATI All-in-wonder Radeon AGP w/ Catalyst 3.6 drivers

With this piece of junk and Virtualdub_sync i can capture 360x576 with Huffyuv and 640x576 with MJPEG (quality about 18.5) - no problems. Frame drops stay at about 0.5%, depending on the source quality and the length of the capture. I don't bother unplugging the network cable while capturing, but i sure as h*ll don't run any other programs at the same time

[lordsmurf]

your celeron should certainly be fast enough not to drop any frames ..........ATI All-in-wonder Radeon AGP w/ Catalyst 3.6 drivers

Yes, but a few key differences. I capture DVD-ready MPEG2. And I use a PCI card, which makes the differences. The MPEG capturing, though partially handled in the hardware, still needs software, so therefore uses more resources than simple AVI VFW captures. And the PCI is slower than the AGP.

My workaround was to use CBR with only 1I 1P 1B and it's flawless now, with no drops. MPEG2, 352x480 up to 4.0 MB/s.

[mic_]

Sounded weird that you were getting a lot of drops (ok, i don't know what you mean by a lot) when capturing with HuffYUV/MJPEG, though. Could be a driver problem, i dunno if the PCI cards use different drivers than the AGP ones.

[pixel]

My point was that I was able to get full DVD resolution using the mmc high quality DVD preset on a box with an AMD 750mhz cpu with no frame drops. I don't recall being able to do this in the past.

Not too sure if it plays into this thread but it seems like an underpowered box to get the results I'm seeing.

Just my thoughts on this next, you used the preset profiles. In MMC, the full resolution presets have motion estimation set pretty low, this may be why you did not experience dropped frames.

@mastersmurfie, I do not have trouble with dropped frames with my onboard soundcard, but I do seem to get points where the sound gets louder than it should be and goes quiet again (distortion). Will a PCI soundcard fix my issues (even a cheap old one till I can by a good one)?

[txpharoah]

Will a PCI soundcard fix my issues (even a cheap old one till I can by a good one)?

Probably. That's the rumor. I've heard reports of it making a difference, all from people I trust.

[Piccoro]

Still having problems?
Check your manual, many times PCI slots share resorces.
Many times the top and bottom PCI are shared. Move one of the PCI cards around (your ATI AIW perferably).
PCI should be fine.
SDRAM should be fine.
Amout of ram may not be enough (256).

[pixel]

@txpharoah. will the creative soundblaster 4.1 do OK for DVD captures? Here's a link with a price and some specs: http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Creative_154.html It is at the very bottom of the page. I ask because I think my dad has one lying around (without the digital output) and he will probably let me have it unless he has given it away.

If you don't think it will be good enough, or if my dad doesn't have it any more, I'll just go for one of the creative audigy 2 cards.

(Sorry, I originally posted this in the wrong topic. )

[lordsmurf]

For those that may need to know, I made some changes to my system that have utterly eradicated both the problems and the need for fixes.

Today, I completely reformatted and installed Windows XP Pro, flipped the drives (the 40GB is now the system, and the 80GB is for capturing and DVD files), and am on MMC 8.6 with the September 2003 CATALYST drivers from XP/2K systems.

I also changed some memory commands in the BIOS, using SPD Timing and a 4x Bank Interleave. Both functions had previously been disabled as per the user manual and default settings, but more research into the BIOS settings may have paid off. The entire system runs faster now.

SYSTEM #2 - Now has these specs, and works great:

- Shuttle MV42N MoBo (VIA-based)
- 512 DDR RAM
- P4 1.7 Celeron
- SoundBlaster Live
- WinXP on C: (master IDE1)
- Files captured to D: (master IDE2)
- ATI All In Wonder 7200 PCI
- ATI September 2003 drivers, ATI MMC 8.6
- ATI card uses AUX cable internally for audio
- CPU runs at about 45-55% when capturing interlaced MPEG2 352x480 at 4.0 MB bitrate.
- Memory usage is 135MB during capture.

So, if shit hits the fan, and your captures suddenly go wrong, or you add a new card and nothing works properly, give the system a fresh format and start over. It's probably your system, improper hardware or BIOS setup, or cheap parts. Or in my case: a combination of them all.

Since my original post, I spent $25 after rebates on the better RAM and $2 for the internal audio cable.

Just reporting my findings for those facing similar issues.