Locking threads that are "out of control"

[Kennyshin]

For example:

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=164824

A thread like this is useful and ugly at once. The best moderating required for that kind of topic threads I think is to define what is allowed and what is not first and then showing examples. By killing the entire discussion, it looks as if the whole forum does not want to discuss one of the most important topics in helping DVDR which is the very central subject of DVDRHelp.com.

[Craig Tucker]

Most members know what is and is not tolerated on these boards. The thread in question had deteriorated from a discussion on DVD-R vs DVD+R into personal abuse and a general slanging match and was set to continue even after a warning was issued by Adam. I therefore locked the thread. If you or any other member wishes to continue the topic in hand (minus the personal abuse) then they are welcome to start a new thread.

[Kennyshin]

Most members know what is and is not tolerated on these boards. The thread in question had deteriorated from a discussion on DVD-R vs DVD+R into personal abuse and a general slanging match and was set to continue even after a warning was issued by Adam. I therefore locked the thread. If you or any other member wishes to continue the topic in hand (minus the personal abuse) then they are welcome to start a new thread.

It was not the first time and there were worse situations about which nothing seemed to be done. Though Adam issued a warning, it was about no specific post, phrase, member. If personal abuse is the problem and not the discussion on DVD-R vs. DVD+R, then why not just discard the abusing phrases instead of killing the entire thread? That does discourage discussion in effect.

And why in the first place did some people personally abuse others? To help kill the discussion or out of pure anger or rage?

Most members know what is and is not tolerated on these boards.

If there were a reason why I have not posted at DVDHelp.com forum, that is, because personal abuse always seemed to be tolerated unlike some other forums. Especially when someone posted about the Plus advantages. Is DVDRHelp neutral at all?

[mkelley]

[quote="Kennyshin"]

And why in the first place did some people personally abuse others? To help kill the discussion or out of pure anger or rage?

Can you say the word "immature?"

Maybe I'm just a tired old man (I am) but I left that thread when Vince posted because it was so obvious it was a bunch of kids yelling at each other. Geeze, I get enough of that from my grandchildren. As soon as people resort to that kind of argument it essentially means they've lost the debate (speaking as one who spent many hours in formal debating -- do they still even *have* debating teams at Universities anymore?)

Mods did a good job locking the thread -- myself, I would have tossed a few people here and there (but then I'm... oh, I already told you :>)

[Kennyshin]

[quote="mkelley"]

And why in the first place did some people personally abuse others? To help kill the discussion or out of pure anger or rage?

Can you say the word "immature?"

Maybe I'm just a tired old man (I am) but I left that thread when Vince posted because it was so obvious it was a bunch of kids yelling at each other. Geeze, I get enough of that from my grandchildren. As soon as people resort to that kind of argument it essentially means they've lost the debate (speaking as one who spent many hours in formal debating -- do they still even *have* debating teams at Universities anymore?)

Mods did a good job locking the thread -- myself, I would have tossed a few people here and there (but then I'm... oh, I already told you :>)

What do you do when your grandchildren shout around when you discuss serious issues with your collegues and relatives? You give up?

I am a moderator at CDFreaks myself in charge of the DVD writer section. I try to make the discussions to flourish rather than kill it.

Is it difficult to appropriately control who are responsible for the "personal abuse" and make the discussion go on regardless of them?

Just because there are people who shout and verbally (or literally) abuse, the threads should be closed? Anybody can request friends to post some dirty words just to make the forum inhabitable or kill threads when specific idea is presented or question is raised. I've seen that at Tom's Hardware Guide and DVDPlusRW.org, and I knew some were publicly known as employees of some companies directly involved. Like some AMD stock owners and Pioneer dealers.

Closing threads is always easier than posting ideas and questions over serious issues. You do it only when it seems the last resort to solve differences.

The discussion at the given thread was not out of control except for a few posts whether written by children or not.

[mkelley]

I'm not sure I'd categorize what happened at the end as "a few posts" -- the last ten or so were almost devoid of content other than insults. That's pretty easy to see the thread has gotten out of control.

I've never been a mod so I can't comment with authority -- had it been me I would have simply banned three or four people for at least a week (putting someone in "jail"?) so they could cool off, but perhaps that doesn't work.

I dunno -- my grandkids know better than to continue this kind of behavior around grandpa, as he will take action they don't enjoy (yep, I'm a tyrant and I love it!) Just like my dad I believe if you spare the rod you spoil the child. In this case I would have spanked the appropriate children, closed the thread, and left it to the adults to continue the discussion elsewhere (come to think of it, that's about how it happens in Real Life).

[Kennyshin]

I dunno -- my grandkids know better than to continue this kind of behavior around grandpa, as he will take action they don't enjoy (yep, I'm a tyrant and I love it!) Just like my dad I believe if you spare the rod you spoil the child. In this case I would have spanked the appropriate children, closed the thread, and left it to the adults to continue the discussion elsewhere (come to think of it, that's about how it happens in Real Life).

Cyber becomes as real as it can be sometimes. People forget. They feel awkward at resuming discussions that were stopped by unexpected force. Continuing discussions by creating new threads out of closed threads is not efficient, I feel.

When a few people shout at a theater or a classroom, it is better to "moderate" the persons (or the shouting) than to stop movies or classes.

In South Korean forums, I as an administrator am often more powerful than admins/moderators at Western sites since the laws and customs here are very much stricter than the West. Tracking down a person itself is much easier, by the phone number, address, job, etc. so social and legal pressure feels more actual to the addressed members. For people like me who are yet accustomed to highly controlled social atmospere, it is not easy to tolerate rude people on Western forum boards. I just disregarded the posts that seemed "out of control" in the thread. They seemed illogical, irrelevant, incoherent, and including personal attacks. Otherwise, the thread itself was fine.

[mkelley]

I think part of the problem with continuing the thread is that, unlike a discussion where some shouting or insults can be ignored or forgotten, the written word remains there for all to see, to further inflame those who are participating, and to also trouble and inflame those who come new to the thread.

I suppose a mod could erase the offending messages -- but I wouldn't want to have to make those kinds of decisions if I were a mod (and I suspect that would be a LOT more work). Far easier to just close the thread and let those who want to discuss in a reasoned manner take it up elsewhere.

In any case, since you feel strongly about, why don't you start up a new thread with this topic and see how the discussion proceeds?

[Kennyshin]

In any case, since you feel strongly about, why don't you start up a new thread with this topic and see how the discussion proceeds?

There are quite many threads with similar topic at various forums right now. I am active in several of them.

This thread I created is not just to discuss the one example thread but to question DVDRHelp moderators' neutrality.

[fmctm1sw]

I think the job of a mod must be a lot of work. There are many, many post to this site everyday. I think mods searching every thread and removing offensive parts and pieces would be far too labor intensive. I think some of them have a life other than being a mod (but I'm not sure ). There is just a myriad of issues involving communication and customs (as mentioned by Kennyshin) with the truly worldwide audience we have here. I think as long as the site "owner" is satisfied with the mods, we have to go with it. This site is an invaluable source of information and as a result we have to deal with the numerous "idiots" and "hotheads" that real their ugly head every once in a while.

I know, this opinion and 50 cents will get you a soda out of a vending machine.....

[Kennyshin]

I think the job of a mod must be a lot of work. There are many, many post to this site everyday. I think mods searching every thread and removing offensive parts and pieces would be far too labor intensive. I think some of them have a life other than being a mod (but I'm not sure ). There is just a myriad of issues involving communication and customs (as mentioned by Kennyshin) with the truly worldwide audience we have here. I think as long as the site "owner" is satisfied with the mods, we have to go with it. This site is an invaluable source of information and as a result we have to deal with the numerous "idiots" and "hotheads" that real their ugly head every once in a while.

I know, this opinion and 50 cents will get you a soda out of a vending machine.....

I also owned some sites and still own some. Whether the members like it or not, it's me who decide what to do regarding the control of information through and on the forum boards.

If I thought the real owner of this site were biased, I wouldn't have posted this much at all. Also as a owner of some other sites, I understand an owner or an administrator's policies cannot always be exactly repeated by the moderators that the administrator or the owner choose.

I have examined posts from various admins/moderators at DVDRHelp.com in the past one year and surely not everyone in the staff think the same way. A few are too biased as moderators and that often affects the forum's general environment. Most of DVDRHelp.com's contents are not to do with the differences between DVD+RW and DVD-RW. Only a few official threads are dedicated to the issue and the official DVDRHelp is not towards or against any one of the two. Some of the admins/moderators at Doom9.org and CDFreaks.com are biased as well but I don't see one of them deleting threads and posts out of personal judgments affected from bias on hi-tech standards. The worst case I've seen was DV-Info.net.

[tgpo]

The way I see it is the I know what I can tolorate. But when people start flame wars we're not gonn put up with it. Let them fight through pm, email, or in real life. But we're not gonna waste server space with 10,000 posts of

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

It goes nowhere and supplies no new information. Thus it is useless and is stopped.

[txpharoah]

I think the largest problem is your 15-25 user base here that has not matured. When they realize they're speaking with guys/gals (usually guys) that have worked with video for 20 years or more (and were early adopters of DVD/VCD technology, with much experience and wisdom) they don't know how to react when they are told their self-made theories and ideas are flawed, and their google.com "research" is not reliable or entirely incorrect.

However, that's also a problem in general, especially with students I've seen all over the world (not just the USA or here in Texas). They rely too much on the Internet for "facts" and never learn the facts. And the younger they are, the more damned stubborn they want to be about it.

Interns don't like me. They either learn, or I fire them. It's really easy.

Does that mean I know everything? Nope, not at all. I read 4x as much as I write. If I don't know the answer, I don't open my mouth. I think some of the youngsters here (and even the 'oldsters' than never learned) should go ahead and adopt this approach. If I wasn't learning something (although not always a whole lot), I'd not even waste my time here.

However, I tend to agree. Some threads merely need remarks removed. Edited, no. But posts by an offensive user are easy to just delete when you are granted "god status" on a board. I moderate another board myself (nothing to do with video or even technology), and though most users are in the 40+ age category, you get randoms (usually 15-25) with mouths that get removed (along with any offensive material). I just delete their post, lock their user account, and move on. It takes all of about 2 minutes, especailly when you have your own T1 access.

Locking a good post because 2 children need a good spanking is like killing an ant bed with an atomic bomb. It's a bit much, to say the least.

[Kennyshin]

The way I see it is the I know what I can tolorate. But when people start flame wars we're not gonn put up with it. Let them fight through pm, email, or in real life. But we're not gonna waste server space with 10,000 posts of

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

'-' is the best

no '+' is the best

It goes nowhere and supplies no new information. Thus it is useless and is stopped.

Preventing the 10,000 posts composed entirely of those two phrases from wasting server space and bandwidth should not be too difficult. Frankly, your remark is nothing better than an intentional insult I feel.

Actually, I tried for a few seconds to understand what are in the two persons' posts. I felt there was no useful information so I skipped. I concentrated mainly on posts by spath, PhilipL, KDH, and a few other members. You just cannot dismiss all those posts as repetition of + is best or - is best.

If it is DVDHelp.com's policy not to allow comparisons between the two standards, publicly say so that you do not want your server space to be wasted by such useless information and user discussions. People can do that in other sites.

[tgpo]

I think the largest problem is your 15-25 user base here that has not matured.

Hey, I'm smack in the middle of that group.



Kennyshin, how did you get an insult out of that?? All I did was tell you why most of those posts get locked. Flame wars are not tolorated on this forum, it's that simple. If people feel that they can bring nothing more to the forum than insults to others, then they can leave. Useful information is always welcomed, but not always well received.

I also feel that moderators get a lot of crap for inforcing the rules. When the rules say do not start flame wars or insult others, and you do it anyway, then expect consequences, and don't cry foul because you got in trouble or your topic got locked. Granted numerous topics are locked because of other posters, but that's a problem every forum has. Bad seeds are usually weeded out.

[PhilipL]

Hi

It is funny how all of a sudden the whole issue seems to have become a matter of DVDRHelp being pro DVD-RW/DVD-R and shut the thread down because it was promoting +RW and +R. Those who are concerned this might be the case are going to be happier and better served by their own special interest group (un-moderated) over at dvdplusrw, where I see my name appears quite often!

For example the latest is a member telling people how he was about to get in a long discussion with me here publicly until I PM'd him privately in attempt to keep the rants out of the forum. This person follows me around and has been known to even change his username just to get past my kill filter, which was switched on for him due to bad language and bad attitude.

Another person mentions my name, seems they are still bitter at having their IP address banned in another forum I moderated in, which was not my decision, but with the seamlessly endless posts of Korean Markets and every single writeable disc under the sun pricing structure for the next 14 years it did get tedious (know who it is yet), and complaints were made by other members that it was a drag to see them in every DVD forum they visited, action was taken to remove them and their posts from at least one forum.

These sorts of issues makes a moderators job a hard one, however you cannot criticise a moderator for doing just that, that is why they are here.

Regards

Philip

[edsmith77]

tpgo,
as an interested by stander who stops reading threads when the children come out to play, I have a simple question to ask.
How many people got booted, banned or exiled from this board for that immature exchange????
If none, then it will bound to happen again.
Just my two cents.

Ed

P.S. I happen to agree with your example as a generalized case of when a thread ought to be shut. Nothing useful will be gained and it WILL escalate into a flame war from which no one benefits.

[tgpo]

How many people got booted, banned or exiled from this board for that immature exchange????

I can't give you an exact number, I don't have one, but I can tell you that it has happened before. For some reason people like their '+' disks or '-' disks and are willing to kill for them. I don't understand it. Everyone should use what they like best and stop trying to tell others otherwise.

[Craig Tucker]

Kennyshin you seem to be impying that I locked the thread because of some sort of bias to one format or the other, how you have arrived at this conclusion I am not entirely sure. To be honest I could not give a monkeys what format people use, as long as what they use works for them then thats great. I locked the thread because it had turned into a flame war, end of story. I fail to see what I or this site would gain from any sort of bias towards one format or another and the implication that I would lock a thread because of some sort of preference to a particular format is insulting to me.

[edsmith77]

tgpo,
I agree. From the time I have been frequenting this board, I have been able to notice several (names withheld) that seem to always offer a differing opinion and ALWAYS get very upset when everyone does not agree with them. Hence, they seem to always escalate the thread into one of name calling.
Thus, I was very subltly trying to say, I wonder why these folks are still allowed to participate in this board.

For me I just ignore them. However, some cannot always seem to do that. I use this board for infomation gathering and sharing of my trials and tribulations. And for 95% of the time this site is excellent in that regards. However, I am dismayed at the continual participation and disruption by the same few.

Since I am only a visitor to this site and I in no way make any rules but do try to abide by them, I am always wondering when the "flamer" is going to stike me next.

[flaninacupboard]

Kennyshin, you can pester the mods and whinge all you like. you're probably just going to carry on until they lock the thread so you can moan some more. The fact is the two formats are different. The differences between the two are well documented online and in trade publications. if people want to look them up, and decided which is best, fine. Unfortuntely human behvious is such that people cannot back down from their views. Anyone who's been here long enough will know that the -R/+R is just the new VCD/SVCD argument. tens of pages wasted on that one, and what did we all decide in the end? work out for yourself what is best for you. The previous thread served no purpose. Nor does this one. i voted it be cunningly moderated into oblivion.

[Baldrick]

With the new warnings system we can now much easier warn/ban any "flamers"...and hopefully will they stop and we don't have to close all topics that are "out of control".

[KDH]

Hi

It is funny how all of a sudden the whole issue seems to have become a matter of DVDRHelp being pro DVD-RW/DVD-R and shut the thread down because it was promoting +RW and +R. Those who are concerned this might be the case are going to be happier and better served by their own special interest group (un-moderated) over at dvdplusrw, where I see my name appears quite often!

For example the latest is a member telling people how he was about to get in a long discussion with me here publicly until I PM'd him privately in attempt to keep the rants out of the forum. This person follows me around and has been known to even change his username just to get past my kill filter, which was switched on for him due to bad language and bad attitude.

Firstly +RW users should in no way be told to go and post at dvdplusrw.org only.
Philip tried this on alt.video.dvdr and it's just not on!!
Philip even apologised in a post to the newsgroup because there were too many users disagreeing with him and it was becoming boring!!

see
Long URL


Wouldn't life be boring here if the -RW fanboys here all agreed with each other?

Secondly I DO NOT follow Philip around!(paranoia?)- I have never used bad language(as far as I can remember) and as far as the bad attitude is concerned this is just "disagreeing with Philip"


I have said before that Philip's silences are sometimes deafening and changing my username was used to get a response fom the quiet man when I was fully aware he was not downloading my posts on Usenet(alt.video.dvdr-which of course is not moderated)
I seem to remember that this was the day that ,according to some,Pioneer gave up on -RW and added +RW to it's drives.(19th May 03)
It was noticable that he was rather "quiet" that week apart from one or 2 posts about how the whole industry would go dual-which patently will not happen without the say so of HP and Dell.

KDH

[Kennyshin]

Kennyshin you seem to be impying that I locked the thread because of some sort of bias to one format or the other, how you have arrived at this conclusion I am not entirely sure. To be honest I could not give a monkeys what format people use, as long as what they use works for them then thats great. I locked the thread because it had turned into a flame war, end of story. I fail to see what I or this site would gain from any sort of bias towards one format or another and the implication that I would lock a thread because of some sort of preference to a particular format is insulting to me.

You would know I was not. Maybe you did not read my messages carefully enough.

[Kennyshin]

Kennyshin, you can pester the mods and whinge all you like. you're probably just going to carry on until they lock the thread so you can moan some more. The fact is the two formats are different. The differences between the two are well documented online and in trade publications. if people want to look them up, and decided which is best, fine. Unfortuntely human behvious is such that people cannot back down from their views. Anyone who's been here long enough will know that the -R/+R is just the new VCD/SVCD argument. tens of pages wasted on that one, and what did we all decide in the end? work out for yourself what is best for you. The previous thread served no purpose. Nor does this one. i voted it be cunningly moderated into oblivion.

It is rather hard for me to understand why insulting posts like this are allowed here while technological discussions are often oppressed.

If you think such threads serve no purpose, that is only your problem. As far as I am concerened, some of the posts in the thread did have useful and practical information.

[vitualis]

It is rather hard for me to understand why insulting posts like this are allowed here while technological discussions are often oppressed.

Kenny, I'm going to take your obtuseness as simply a poor understanding of English. flaninacupboard's post to you is hardly "insulting".

The reason why that thread was locked is clear and obvious and Craig has explained his reasoning. Your conspiracy theory of "lack of neutrality" is not only without merit but really rather insulting.

If you think such threads serve no purpose, that is only your problem. As far as I am concerened, some of the posts in the thread did have useful and practical information.

That is why that thread is locked rather than deleted. I feel perhaps there is a certain cultural boundary here that I think YOU Kennyshin will have to try to get a grasp of (since you are the visitor here, not the other way around). It seems to me that you are very keen on the concept of editing other people's posts in a manner best described as censorship. IMHO, that is by far not acceptable to most of the members here and in general, the mods only change the contents of a person's posts where it is required but almost NEVER the MEANING of the post.

Now, iff you feel you have something to add to the thread then simply start a new one and provide the appropriate links to posts in the locked thread.

Furthermore, what you do in your own website/forums/etc. is your own business and since you have so many hats on other sites, surely you respect and understand our job. If YOU follow your rules on your site(s) then sure you expect us to follow OURS.

Flamewars are not tolerated on this site. Your curious exception to that has been noted but I doubt will change the opinions of any of the mods or Baldrick here. If that is not acceptable to you, then I remind you that posting on this forum is voluntary.

This thread serves no particular further purpose except for the "combatants" of the other thread to off-load here so I'm going to lock this thread.

Regards.