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  1. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    txpharoah:

    well said! (on both threads)

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by PhilipL
    Hi

    Hi Philip you didn't tell us how long it takes to write a Dvd-rw.
    Good question, dvdrwplus would like us to believe it takes 2 hours on a 1 speed disc, i.e. 1hour for the format, and one hour for the write, assuming a full 4.3Gbyte is being written. On two speed media that would be 1 hour, (30 minutes for a format and 30 minutes for a write).

    In our reality it actually takes 1 hour for x1 and 30 minutes for x2 speed, a big difference from their propaganda wouldn't you agree? As you are no doubt realisng, dvdplusrw doesn't care about being accurate, it just promotes +RW with a lot of rubbish and biased information. Still just be thankful you had the good sense to ask questions here to clarify that.


    Regards

    Philip
    DVDPlusRW.org said it takes two hours to write at 1x DVD, PhilipL?
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  3. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Kennyshin,

    If DVDPLUSRW.ORG said that, they Really need to stop buying their own BS. I've got a Pioneer A04. If I use -RW discs (only occasionally as I mostly do -R), then a full disc takes about 1 hour and ~5 minutes start to finish, including disc verifying. This is coming from a completely blank, unformatted, still-in-its-wrapper state and ending in a finalized, settop playable and copyable product.

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia
    Kennyshin,

    If DVDPLUSRW.ORG said that, they Really need to stop buying their own BS. I've got a Pioneer A04. If I use -RW discs (only occasionally as I mostly do -R), then a full disc takes about 1 hour and ~5 minutes start to finish, including disc verifying. This is coming from a completely blank, unformatted, still-in-its-wrapper state and ending in a finalized, settop playable and copyable product.

    Scott
    Did you actually read the articles at DVDPlusRW.org? I did. Tens of thousands, including those in the forum.

    PhilipL just lied in order to make the site look very bad.
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    Most of you cannot buy DVD+R (beginning from 2.4x) media for under US$1 because there are enough demand for them for US$1.x per disc. Demand exceeds suppply.

    Some of you can buy DVD-R (mostly 1x and 2x) media for under US$1 because second-tier and third-tier companies of Taiwan wanted to move into the DVD recordable media market since they were more profitable than CD recordable media. Rapidly, so they chose first DVD-R and later DVD-RW. First-tier companies like Ritek and Prodisc are those that supply over 80% of worldwide DVD+R and DVD+RW media. DVD+R media were first mass produced around June 2002, about one year ago, and look at how many units they are produced in a month now.
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  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Kennyshin:

    I think YOU are the one who missed this.

    On the DVDPLUSRW.ORG site is this page.

    Half-way down, it talks about 2 things--Burn speed and Formatting.

    It says:
    Older DVD-RW drives required you to format a full disc at 1x speed, so you had to wait for over one hour before you can start recording to the disc.
    Add to that the stated 1x Burn speed of -RW for the actual recording (1 hour) and that comes to 2 hours, just like PhilipL said.

    Well, I have a A04. The only drive older than that which does RW is the A03. I know of simple firmware updates that negate their claims.

    Your other post about media cost...?
    You talk about Demand exceeding Supply. If that were true, there wouldn't be any DVD+ stock on the shelves at local stores (we're talking US here, not Seoul, Korea where you live) and I can physically verify that this just isn't true.

    Man, this whole thing should have been put out of its misery long ago!

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia
    Kennyshin:

    I think YOU are the one who missed this.

    On the DVDPLUSRW.ORG site is this page.

    Half-way down, it talks about 2 things--Burn speed and Formatting.

    It says:
    Older DVD-RW drives required you to format a full disc at 1x speed, so you had to wait for over one hour before you can start recording to the disc.
    Add to that the stated 1x Burn speed of -RW for the actual recording (1 hour) and that comes to 2 hours, just like PhilipL said.

    Well, I have a A04. The only drive older than that which does RW is the A03. I know of simple firmware updates that negate their claims.

    Your other post about media cost...?
    You talk about Demand exceeding Supply. If that were true, there wouldn't be any DVD+ stock on the shelves at local stores (we're talking US here, not Seoul, Korea where you live) and I can physically verify that this just isn't true.

    Man, this whole thing should have been put out of its misery long ago!

    Scott
    1. So it is true that DVDPlusRW.org said the actual recording time of 1x DVD-RW is around 1 hour? That is how I understood it. PhilipL is the one person who wanted to make people believe the owner of DVDPlusRW.org must be paid by Philips to promote DVD+RW standard just by indicating he lives in The Netherlands since both the site server and Philips are based in the country.

    2. It is also true that DVD+R media have been very rare on shelves in the US, Spain, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, and many other countries. YOU live in the one country where the most DVD+R media are exported in the whole world. Would you like to know the fact on how many DVD+R 2.4x and 4x media have been shipped to the United States, Japan, and South Korea? You are lucky enough to live there since the company manufacturing nearly 80% of DVD+R and DVD+RW media always first ship to the US market in massive quantity. All South Korean distributors and importers get in their turns was about less than 1,000 units a month during the latest one year.
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  8. Member Faustus's Avatar
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    Ritek G03 disc are in very high demand, they are often sold out. yet they were near a dollar and still are only about $1.30per disc. Usually the exact oppisite is true. When the demand goes up the production is ramped up. Mass production leads to a more cheaply produced product per unit. Its the reason why its not feasible for Ford to make everyone a custom car. Its also the reason why CD-R media never game down very fast until the burner craze finally took off, demand went up, so production went up, and so prices fell.

    Yet here in a year or so when Hopefully Pioneer comes out with a dual format burner that 8x I will use which ever media I can get my hands on thats good, and cheap. Right now it does seem to be the -R media in that department, but If I saw some TDK +Rs on sell for cheap I'd buy them if I had the burner.

    I will not hide for a moment that I prefer my little Pioneer, and I will not hide my biased opinion that from what I see around me -R SEEMs to be winning. But I cannot rule out the fact that I'm wrong. I like my format, but I'm not married to it should it end up the loser. I just don't think its gonna happen.

    I also think that both formats will be with us for a LONG time.

    I had to point this out to someone to other day however in RL. When the Sony went dual format he (+RW guy) I said "Look Sony is losing faith in the format" and he replied "No, they are trying to convert everyone else" When I told him about the Pioneer he said "See Pioneer sees that the + format is better and are trying to edge their way out of -R" but I just sarcasicly said "NO, they are trying trick all you guys into switching for you own good."

    You can interprert market movements and stats. You can quote media prices, but much of it is biased, or can be looked at from different angles to mean different things. At the end of the day they both burn movies, and data, and pretty well. I will however never buy a HP burner of any kind after how the early adopters of the +RW drive got screwed over by HP on their "Upgrade to +R". Pioneer on the other hand has earned a life long burner customer, well unless they screw it up.
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    Originally Posted by flaystus
    Ritek G03 disc are in very high demand, they are often sold out. yet they were near a dollar and still are only about $1.30per disc. Usually the exact oppisite is true. When the demand goes up the production is ramped up. Mass production leads to a more cheaply produced product per unit. Its the reason why its not feasible for Ford to make everyone a custom car. Its also the reason why CD-R media never game down very fast until the burner craze finally took off, demand went up, so production went up, and so prices fell.
    Exactly. That is why Ritek is doubling and quadrupling DVD+R media production. It was just one year ago when the first Ritek DVD+R 2.4x media appeared in the US market. 4x DVD+R media price in quantity of 10,000 was about US$1.3 per disc when the first 4x DVD+R drives were mass distributed around the world.

    Ritek G03 has competitors. Princo and BeAll are two of those. Ritek DVD+R has hardly any competitor. Taiyo Yuden has only begun to produce DVD+R media in 2003. Monopoly leads to high retail prices which is why Samsung could contol DRAM (both SDRAM and RDRAM) for years and Intel finally decided to give up RDRAM even in server markets since Samsung was monopolizing RDRAM market for its own profits only. Despite it, DVD+R media at 2.4x made by Mitsubishi and Ritek began to appear at some US shops for under US$2.0 and sometimes US$1.5 per unit in 2002.

    I actually tried to order 100,000 or more DVD+R media from some of th DVD+R manufacturers. It was not possible since the demand was too high and their first priority was to ship to some large OEM buyers such as Ricoh and HP. Ritek simply refused. We had to wait for months and months. Of course, getting DVD-R was easier since BeAll and SKC were producing them inside South Korea, in factories just 30 minutes from the center of Seoul.

    Also, why do you think the price of Ritek G03 and G04 went up recently?
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    Originally Posted by flaystus

    I will not hide for a moment that I prefer my little Pioneer, and I will not hide my biased opinion that from what I see around me -R SEEMs to be winning. But I cannot rule out the fact that I'm wrong. I like my format, but I'm not married to it should it end up the loser. I just don't think its gonna happen.
    Everyone could see that you prefer DVD-R at any moment.

    Originally Posted by flaystus
    ]You can interprert market movements and stats. You can quote media prices, but much of it is biased, or can be looked at from different angles to mean different things. At the end of the day they both burn movies, and data, and pretty well. I will however never buy a HP burner of any kind after how the early adopters of the +RW drive got screwed over by HP on their "Upgrade to +R". Pioneer on the other hand has earned a life long burner customer, well unless they screw it up.
    That they both burn pretty well is an expression much more biased than market interpretation and the raw data from various manufacturers and other sources. Quite many DVD-R media are not good enough for burning video and data. Not all early adopters of HP DVD+RW drives are unhappy. I have seen quite many of them are YET using DVD+RW drives happily. Since October 2001, and I was a supporter of DVD+RW even then, DVD+RW has been relatively successful in expanding recording market and stealing some of the market share from Pioneer and Matushita.
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  11. Member Faustus's Avatar
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    Um maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to suggest that saying "they both burn disc well" is biased? Maybe you should look that word up, I'm not trying to be insulting but I dont see how the two possibly could go together. How can something be slanted to the center?

    As far as blaming the format for some screwball media manufactuers who put out bad products. I think you kinda missing the entire issue. What I ask myself is if there are so many bad media manufactuers on making -R disc, maybe its because they know they can sell a WHOLE lot of -Rs to people before they are figured out. Because they sell a WHOLE LOT of them.

    I'm glad there are people happy with their old HP burners, but I remember the screaming, and moaning. It was well warranted, but I remember it. Heck wasn't there a lawsuit, or at least a threat of one at some point?
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    Originally Posted by flaystus
    Um maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to suggest that saying "they both burn disc well" is biased? Maybe you should look that word up, I'm not trying to be insulting but I dont see how the two possibly could go together. How can something be slanted to the center?

    As far as blaming the format for some screwball media manufactuers who put out bad products. I think you kinda missing the entire issue. What I ask myself is if there are so many bad media manufactuers on making -R disc, maybe its because they know they can sell a WHOLE lot of -Rs to people before they are figured out. Because they sell a WHOLE LOT of them.

    I'm glad there are people happy with their old HP burners, but I remember the screaming, and moaning. It was well warranted, but I remember it. Heck wasn't there a lawsuit, or at least a threat of one at some point?
    1. You said as if DVD-R media price is lower due to demand. I answered quite many DVD-R media are of lower quality. Ritek 4x DVD+R media are easier to write at 4x speed than Ritek 4x DVD-R media. There have been fewer issues. The prices are usually the same. Most cheaper media are made by Princo, Gigastorage, Infodisc, Nanya, Prodisc, CMC, and other competitors of Ritek and Taiyo Yuden. The "WHOLE LOT" of them are just under 10 million or so of DVD-R media each month during the year 2002. Keep in mind that there were HALF A BILLION CD-R media during the same time period. Out of those, only a few million were produced by Taiyo Yuden, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Pioneer, and a few other high-quality media manufacturers. Most DVD-R media were produced by those not yet ready to do the job properly. Which lead people like you to spend so much time in posting what media are good and bad in recording 1x and 2x. During the same time, there were people using 2.4x DVD+RW and 2.4x DVD+R media without doing the same efforts.

    2. There was a lawsuit, yes, in the United States state of Nevada. One member at DVDPlusRW.org forum was the leader and many members sent emails to CNET and other news sites which was why every important news media seemed to report about DVDPlusRW.org and DVD+RW Alliance's failure to provide a free and instant upgrade to then-existing DVD+RW drives. A good example of class action. I reported about it on many South Korean consumer forum boards so that South Koreans would do the same in the future against companies like AMD. So that is so important to you even now?
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    Kennyshin, I hope you realize that as soon as a bad media company decides to make some +R discs (and Ritek is already questionable), your argument is gone. It really is pointless.

    Think about all the people that now consider ALL SUV's to be bad because Firestone put some crappy tires on a few models? As if it were the vehicle's fault, and not the tires? Talk about blame shifting.

    That's fine to not like something, but please don't use BS as the reasoning. Give me something I can sink my teeth into.

    Again, both formats are stable. You pick what you want. They will BOTH lose when the next format comes out. With a small percentage in DVD-Video +R compatibility issues aside, they're identical.

    Because of flaystus, I went to a Best Buy for the first time in... heck, I don't even remember... to find an A06. I browsed. The VHS movies section was 4 shelves in size. Compare the DVD section to about 5 rows about 10 times as long and with 5 shelves apiece. VHS is now a "loser" too, but it still serves a purpose and many, many people still have them. Not to mention all the blank tapes still sold (which was larger than the pre-recorded tapes selection) and online video stores you can still buy from.

    Kennyshin, you obviously fit in the +R demographic and buy into the marketing. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I do the same with some products myself. No need to sell your product, and especially when you start grasping for reasons.

    I think Pape John's is better than Pizza Hut and Subway is better than Blimpie. I have my reasons. But in the end, they're really not much different, and they both get the job done. Same for DVD+R vs DVD-R.
    I'm not online anymore. Ask BALDRICK, LORDSMURF or SATSTORM for help. PM's are ignored.
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    Originally Posted by txpharoah
    Kennyshin, I hope you realize that as soon as a bad media company decides to make some +R discs (and Ritek is already questionable), your argument is gone. It really is pointless.
    I didn't say "bad." I said that some companies started mass production of DVD-R media without enough expertise. I said that only because he said as if DVD-R media are cheaper than DVD+R media. Low quality DVD-R media are cheaper than high quality DVD+R media, was what I said, is pointless?

    Originally Posted by txpharoah
    Again, both formats are stable. You pick what you want. They will BOTH lose when the next format comes out. With a small percentage in DVD-Video +R compatibility issues aside, they're identical.
    Not at all. The next recordable standards are already out. They are DVHS, Blu-ray Disc, AOD, etc. Despite that, DVD-RAM, DVD-R(W), and DVD+R(W) will survive till 2005 or 2006 at least just as LG and Samsung will continue to produce CD writers till then even despite they have already sampled HDTV recorders and are promoting HDTV sets. What is important in this subject of "DVD+R/RW wins format war" is that the Plus standard has been lately introduced and is rapidly gaining market share in the recordable DVD market. Regardless of the fact they are both based on the original DVD specification, they are supported differently and will grow differently.

    Originally Posted by txpharoah
    Kennyshin, you obviously fit in the +R demographic and buy into the marketing. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. I do the same with some products myself. No need to sell your product, and especially when you start grasping for reasons.
    Why do I sell DVD-R drives and DVD-R media if I bought into the DVD+R marketing?

    Originally Posted by txpharoah
    I think Pape John's is better than Pizza Hut and Subway is better than Blimpie. I have my reasons. But in the end, they're really not much different, and they both get the job done. Same for DVD+R vs DVD-R.
    It is about the difference and people feel differently about the differences. To you, it may not be that much. To some others, it may be. That is why some people say DVD+R/+RW will win and why Plus is better than Dash. To me, 4x DVD+RW sounds better than 2x DVD-RW and 32x CD-RW sounds better than 16x CD-RW. Of course, it may not to you. What is the point of repeating that both DVD+R and DVD-R make DVD as if there were people ignorant of that?
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  15. I'm done with DVD-R and it has lost the wars.

    I have a sony dru500ax I bought for $350 - $50 coupon from circuit city. If it makes anyone feel any better in 1996 in Japan I bought two Pioneer PD-ROM? Each one was $400. It burned a cd in a case enclosure and get this...it could re-write. I bought 50 blank media catridges for $25 each...so I spent $2,000+ on this stuff. Why? Because I thought why spend $600 on a CD-R burner. Heck it can't even rewrite like PD-ROM can. Plus back in those days my friend had many buffer underruns and the CHEAPEST blank CD-R was $6 for a no-name brand. Brand name media was $10 a pop. $10 bufferunderuns added up quickly..back in those days no smart-burn, etc. So I gambled and I lost bigtime. Another gamble I did was in 1997 I paid $2,200 for a mini-DV camcorder..still have and use it today. Also in 1999 I gambled and spent $1,200 on a 2mega pixel digital camera and still have and use that today. So 2 outta 3 gambles paid off (in my eyes) and one I got burned.

    What's my point....it might take a few people 2 to 3 years to see the light but DVD-R has lost. Wait a sec...was Pioneer the first to come out with DVD-R burner...flashback deja-vu I fooled you.

    I'll just cut and paste my comment from my homepage.
    http://www.mrbass.org/dvdburn

    Best places to get your 4X DVD+R are bestbuy.com (free shipping) has 100 pack for $189 or 25 or 50 packs of TDK, Memorex, Verbatim for around $2/ each DVD+R. Also rima.com sells 100 pack of 4X Ritek DVD+R for $185. Fry's has 50 pack of 4X TDK for $100 so $2/each. I just bought four packs at Target on sale for $1.50each/dvd+r media of 4X TDK DVD+R (20pack was $30). (this sale stuff was June 22, 2003)

    Wait for the Lite-on 4X DVD+R DVD burner should come out middle of July for around $130. That's the one I recommend to get. I personally have a Sony dru500ax Dual format but I'm sold on DVD+R bigtime. After using 300+ DVD-R I'm through with them forever. DVD+R doesn't eject sometimes on my Pioneer 434 unlike DVD-R does occassionally when I put them in. 4X DVD+R always burns at 4X in 14mins...wow that sure beats burning 4X DVD-R at 2X in 31mins.
    www.mrbass.org DVDShrink | DVD2DVD | DVDFAB | Mac
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  16. Member kabanero's Avatar
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    I have HP DVD200i which is +R/+RW. All disks burnt with Nero. No problems whatsoever with any brand of +R or +RW disks.
    My Sony DVD player DVP-S560D and Koss DVD changer play any brand of +R or +RW disks with no problems. (BTW, I bought this Sony player in August 2000 when DVD+ format wasn't out yet at all)

    Two weeks ago my boss at work bought me Sony 500ULX, which is external -+R/-+RW drive. Then, couple days later he broght the stack of 100 "NO NAME" brand name 1x DVD-R disks that were bought for a $100. (I ran DVDInfo on them and the code showed that they were made by Princo).

    So, I decided to give MINUS format a try. I took the drive home, burnt 5 DVD-Rs of my own home videos. Then I took these disks to play on my DVD players....

    And it SUCKED BIG TIME!!!

    Both my player had all kinds of problems with playback.

    So, I said: "GOOD BY DVD-MINUS".
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  17. Member Faustus's Avatar
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    kabanero: its not the format, its because your boss tried to be cheap and purchased princo instead of a reliable brand.


    That aside I'm done with this arguement. It really doesn't matter either way. I've said it a million times it feels but. "By the time its all settled we'll be picking up new burners for about $100, so who cares?"
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  18. man, i could burn a dvd-r with nero,and have lots of problems on a wide range of standalones,on any media.change the crappy nero software to something like copytoDVD,and get no problems on a wide range of standalones with any media,written at any speed.
    its got a lot to do with the media,granted,but just as equal is the burning software.
    and no mater what ANYONE says,NERO is crap at burning dvds.
    ive seen players skip,jump,and lock up with discs burnt using nero sofware,but yet to see one problem on a disc burnt using,like i say,copytoDVD.
    i myself am happy with the performance i get off my 2 pioneer 105's,which incidently cost me about $160 for the 2 of them.new,as they are about 100 each here in the uk now.
    far better value for money than the NEC my friend has(279).
    and especially better quality than my other friend who has one of the sony 500a writers.
    they constantly get coasters,whereas,ive only had 3 in about 150+ -media.
    and there discs give me headaches with the skipping,locking and general bad performances on my players,with there so called "better +r discs".
    the -r discs i buy are about 90 per 100.
    compared to th4 price of the +R discs they buy which are roughly double to triple the price.
    for me -R is more than enough for me just now,as the extra expense turns me off.
    but in 2 or 3 years when the technology changes and +R and possibly -R are "old hat",then im gonna be content that i didnt buy into the hype.
    oh,one more thing,my dvd players(standalones) read+R's worse than -R's.
    and anyway,the pioneer 105's read +R's,so i just reburn the stuff onto -R media,no problems there.
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  19. This might get the debate going again

    Original URL
    http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story_stocks&articleid=CA303937

    Clarification posted 23 June
    http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story_stocks&articleid=CA306767

    Even I would say this can't be right.
    There's no way Pioneer was only getting 3.8% of the aftermarket PC drive sales??

    KDH
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  20. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    Looky what I found on NEWEGG today

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  21. I have a dual format burner so I care less about the format wars . However I want to point somethings that have been said in this thread:

    1.- Formatting a brand new DVD+RW takes like 30 seconds or less, and there is no option to do a quick or full format (at least the software doesn't have those options). I use them for backup (they're fast 2,4x burning).

    2.- Formatting a brand new DVD-RW 1x takes like 1 hour (full format). I can get 2x, but they are more expensive than DVD+RW so I don't use them for backup. Instead I use them as test of my authored DVDs, because they are more compatible than DVD+RW.

    3.- For me DVD-R is far more compatible, so I burn like 50 DVD-R per each DVD+R... My laptop, DVD player and DVD-ROM read DVD-R, but only the DVD player (and of course DVD burner) read DVD+R.

    Everything else is marketing. Both formats will stay for a long time, so use whatever gives you the best results. If there weren't dual DVD burners, I would have chosen DVD-R because for the hardware that I have it's more compatible. But it can be the opposite.
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