DVD+R/RW wins format war

[goldmember1]

Hi Philip you didn't tell us how long it takes to write a Dvd-rw.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[vance43211]

And where is the 2.4 TIMES considered FAST other than the DVD+R website?

I'm burning at 4x you can't get that fast with your DVD+R or +RW

he obviously haven't been to the store lately

[LanEvo7]

Most of that bullshit on +R alliance sites refer to the advantages of +RW discs over -RW discs. I don't know about you, but I burn wayyyyyyy more Rs than RWs.

[macleod]

I read the subject line and it looks like the war is going to -R. I was at Wal-Mart last evening and they had a 10 pack of -R media..... :P :P


(and if anyone reads this and assumes for a second that I was serious, you need to get a sense of humor).

This endless debating over who is going to win the "war". It is ridiculous. People in both camps are trying to convince themselves that they didnt waste XXXX amount of money on X burner. Each side apparently thinks that this is a betamax vs VHS type of war where there clearly was a winner. Pick a flippin format that you like because it works for you and move on. Both formats are going to live on for a long time until the next big thing happens.

[vance43211]

i don't usually respond to this stupid debate, but

This was talked about in another thread, as well as previous threads and DVD-R is by far the leader in the market.

First of all, that report doesn't seem to cover *world* sales. Only those in the US (Which not supprisingly is the only market in which DVD+R really is surviving). Also, something to mention is that DVD+R makers started adding dual writing functionality before DVD-R did, indicating the worldwide trend towards DVD-R. This is also supported by Microsofts change in accepting DVD-R within their operating system.

I've spoken with a few people who work in stores and by far most indicate that they sell out of DVD-R supplies *Very* quicky, while most DVD+R items sit on the shelf for days and days. In terms of storing data CDs, I don't know which is more popular, but in regard for video, DVD-R is by far leading the way. In fact, even organized crime (When not using manufacturing grade equipment) use DVD-Rs to make Pirate DVDs.
Again, the only place which really sells DVD+R disks in force really is the USA. For the rest of the world, everyone uses DVD-R.

Almost like NTSC (USA), PAL (The world).

Trenton_Net

stop hating on us

u think you are right just because you are a follower

AND WE GOT A MIND OF OUR OWN

so what, if we do it differently? guess what? we are different.

if it work for us, what the f*#k is wrong with that

from watching this stupid debate

it obvious that +r is winning over here

-r is winning everywhere else

guess what, we ain't going to change for your stupid #ss opinion

and i don't expect you to change for ours

[dcsos]

format a disc in 30 seconds where Dvdplusrw tells me it will take 60 minutes.

There are two ways to reformat the - or + RW beast

FULL takes 60 minutes at 1x on both types
QUICK ERASE (which just erases the table of contents, and allows the new burn over the old one) takes like you said (QUICK!)

[dcsos]

And where is the 2.4 TIMES considered FAST other than the DVD+R website?

I'm burning at 4x you can't get that fast with your DVD+R or +RW


he obviously haven't been to the store lately

My Mistake I MEAN 6X!
DVD-R 6X from PIONEER in the A06 next month! and its - and +!!!

[-jsl-]

And where is the 2.4 TIMES considered FAST other than the DVD+R website?

I'm burning at 4x you can't get that fast with your DVD+R or +RW


he obviously haven't been to the store lately

My Mistake I MEAN 6X!
DVD-R 6X from PIONEER in the A06 next month! and its - and +!!!

Check your facts before posting. A06 is 4x/2x DVD-R/RW, 4x/2.4x DVD+R/RW.
DVD+RW (note RW as in rewritable) is 4x in Sony DRU-510A, and the just released Benq DW400A and Ricoh MP5240A.

[dcsos]

Sorry, I APOLOGIZE

[tompika]

format a disc in 30 seconds where Dvdplusrw tells me it will take 60 minutes.

There are two ways to reformat the - or + RW beast

FULL takes 60 minutes at 1x on both types
QUICK ERASE (which just erases the table of contents, and allows the new burn over the old one) takes like you said (QUICK!)

....and he obviously hasn`t erased a single DVD+RW

Plus burners
Write, format, ( FULL erase) at least 2.4X = 23 MINUTES
QUICK erase = 8 SECONDS

Somebody should close this topic.

[goldmember1]

I read a UK Magazine called Computer Active (issue 136 ) www.computeractive.co.uk They done a recent survey on Dvd recording Drives the test showed length of time write a Rw disc.

Pioneer Dvd – Rw 65 mins

Asus Dvd – Rw 44 mins

Panasonic Dvd – Rw 42 mins

Sony Dvd – Rw 42 mins

Sony Dvd + Rw 21 mins

Hp Dvd + Rw 21 mins

Nec Dvd + Rw 21 mins

Plextor Dvd + Rw 21 mins

Rioch Dvd + Rw 21 mins

Aopen Dvd + Rw 21 mins


The write up in this magazine was an interesting read and give an insight to which format that would have a future.

[KDH]

Would PhilipL like to post a comment on the original post here

ie
http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=story&doc_id=120651


Or would he like to avoid this and carry on his solo war against all that is written on dvdplus.org and the Philips/DVD+Alliance marketing people?

Philip has been rather quiet on advent of the Pioneer dual drive and their previously awful sales figures of the A05.

Maybe the DVDForum/Recordable Council need lessons in marketing
Certainly the manufacturers do!
They've managed to push -RW in PC's almost to extinction (3.8%!!)and then have pushed a separate format ie RAM in CE products obviously not realizing there may be some cross over in these days of integrated technology.

Also to respond to some other issues above

If DVD+R is only surviving in the US then great!
See
http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jhtml?containerId=pr2003_04_17_152306

The US has 35% of PC sales(by far the biggest market) so this is where it counts.
I'm in the UK and DVD+RW is certainly surviving and gaining market share.

The guy who says the duplicator towers are cheaper for -R drives has not worked out who's going to make his 8x -R only drives at the end of the year.
There will (virtually) only be dual and +RW drives made by year end -so which type of drive(and duplicator) will be cheaper?



KDH

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[KDH]

It's often what you fail to say that is so important and the constant churning up of old material that's so repetative !
The beige case of the A06 is obviously more newsworthy than the addition of +RW writing??
Also I didn't follow you onto this thread-I was posting on here last week while you were in hibernation.

KDH

[Cornucopia]

KDH said:

The guy who says the duplicator towers are cheaper for -R drives has not worked out who's going to make his 8x -R only drives at the end of the year.
There will (virtually) only be dual and +RW drives made by year end -so which type of drive(and duplicator) will be cheaper?

As the "guy" who said that, I'll try to make a few things clear.

I did not say I would be getting an 8x DVD-burner tower. I said:

I'm getting a 4x DVD-R duplicator tower this year, just to keep the main authoring station from getting bottlenecked and expand the duplicating turnaround capabilities. This is all DVD-R. I'll probably wait until Pioneer's A07 is out at ~Christmas so I will be able to do 8x authoring.

Which may be confusing, but actually means that I'll be getting a 4x tower (which is currently available using Pioneer A05's) later this summer, AND I'll also be getting an A07 around Christmas.
Now, if the A07 happens to include +RW along with everything else, that's just a bonus, but that won't be why I'm getting it. The A07 is for the 8x authoring. In that way though, it'll be good for me as I will then be able to make duplicates in all 5 recordable formats -R, -RW, RAM, +R, and +RW. This will allow me to difinitively show to customers WHICH format is the most compatible for their player (but I can already guess that anyway).
Now, you may ask how I know the A07 will be out by Christmas? Easy. Pioneer has already announced their release times for this. (I think it's on another thread in the forum.) Will they stick to their plan? They have been on time or early with all of their other releases, so I see no reason why they wouldn't, unlike some other companies.

Scott

[vance43211]

do you all really think the burner that u just so happen to buy

is actually better than the guy who just happen to have the opposite format

but it still plays on everybody dvd player like yours do?

i know

some stupid idiot is going to answer this post with

dvd-r media are cheaper.

SO F#%KING WHAT

last time i check, steak cost more than chicken

do that make steak better?

to everybody that think their format is better than the other one

STOP SMOKING CRACK

[Bob W]

As long as DVD-R media is one half the price of DVD+R I of course will be buying and burning same. Now if they were the same price then it's makes no difference to me since I can use either format and they both play fine on all my players and my friends and family players.

[kabanero]

Hey PhilipL,

How about that?: http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/113

[KDH]

Also, now that there are a number of manufacturers doing DVD-duplication towers, there are versions for DVD-R and DVD+R, except the DVD+R's are $700 more expensive ($9200 for 8*4xDVD-R vs $9900 for 8*4xDVD+R at DiscMakers). Guess which one gets bought more often? And guess which MEDIA gets bought in bulk more often?



Scott

This was the bit I was referring to.
The above situation will change soon, as the only way you will be able to use DVD-R in duplicating towers will be on dual drives, as there is likely to be no(or hardly any) "-RW only" drive manufacturers.
Licensing costs mean that towers with "+RW only" drives will cost less and by then media cost differences will be negligible(especially if Princo start making +RW/R media.)

KDH

[Viper10000]

Hi everyone,

First of all, I think both format must be equally good. If one is much better than the other, then we wouldn't have this discussion. And now, here's my 2 cents on this topic.

IMHO, we should ask ourselves what do we really want to do when we buy a DVD burner for? Is it for back-up data, or because we want to copy movies, back up our DVD collection, or create movie/video so we can play on our standalone?

1. If our answer is to backup, then I guess +RW or -RW, it doesn't make any difference, because we still have to use our DVD drive to read these data back. I guess it comes down to cheap price (i.e. -RW) versus better technology (i.e. +RW) ... I know people might argue this.

2. If our answer is to "copy DVD/create video so we can play on your standalone", then we should ask ourselves this ... "Does my current DVD standalone can play the DVD-RW or the DVD+RW?". If we're lucky to own a Standalone that can recognize both media, then it does not matter. It does not make any sense to create a DVD that our Standalone cannot recognize, and we end up go out and buy a new standalone?!! IMHO, it is silly that just because we worry about 2+ years from now that one format will beat the other format, and so we create all these DVD Movies that our Standalone cannot read ?!!

As for me, my answer was "both". Yes, I want to back up some data to DVD, because it holds 4.7GB, and yes, I want to backup my DVD collection also. And Yes, I own a cheap DVD Standalone, and guess what? I'm not lucky, my Stanalone recognizes mostly DVD-R, and since I don't have $300+ to buy a Sony DRU-5xx, so guess what DVD burner did I buy...

Cheers,

[Cornucopia]

I guess we'll all find out in a couple of months/years, but it seems to me that your line of reasoning is circular and wishful thinking.

My cost analyses and past histories/future projections are telling me to either stick with -R/W only or go with +/-Combo drives. If Combo drives are so wildly popular, I guess licensing couldn't be that big an issue...

Openminded, but still -R...

Scott

[vance43211]

Viper10000

2. If our answer is to "copy DVD/create video so we can play on your standalone", then we should ask ourselves this ... "Does my current DVD standalone can play the DVD-RW or the DVD+RW?". If we're lucky to own a Standalone that can recognize both media, then it does not matter. It does not make any sense to create a DVD that our Standalone cannot recognize, and we end up go out and buy a new standalone?!! IMHO, it is silly that just because we worry about 2+ years from now that one format will beat the other format, and so we create all these DVD Movies that our Standalone cannot read ?!!

the software that out there now makes this a non issue

u have more of an issue now with the udf vers. 1.02 and the udf vers. 1.05
for comptatibility (older dvd players vs newer dvd players)

IMHO, we should ask ourselves what do we really want to do when we buy a DVD burner for? Is it for back-up data, or because we want to copy movies, back up our DVD collection, or create movie/video so we can play on our standalone?

what really happen is people buy the 1st one that they see

that they proclaim on this forum that their (format that they own) burner is better

they have no real legitimate reason to say that

they just say it because that is what they own



p.s. go ahead bob w

and say dvd-r media is cheaper

i 've only seen you say that a 1001 times

but i also see that u say that u buy every dvd coping software on the market

stop buying so many of the same kind of software

and maybe u can afford dvd+r media

[Syphic]

Why dont you all go out and get girlfriends rather than fight about a stupid format war. Keep burning with what you have, shut up and be happy.

[vance43211]

Why dont you all go out and get girlfriends rather than fight about a stupid format war. Keep burning with what you have, shut up and be happy.

i will second that notion

[Excellerator]

Who cares what format wins anyway? My burner will be worn out long before either format goes away and I'll be onto the next wave, blue light or whatever.

I agree 100%, DVD recorders are cheap enough to upgrade but for the time being I am happy with my 105. As long as the media is available, which both are, who cares!!!! They both do the same thing. Besides I probably won't upgrade until the 8x DVD drives come out. Same thing with CD burns, went from 2x to 4x to 6x to 8x to 16x.

[Excellerator]

Everyone has been on the VHS vs Beta kick on this thread, but can I add something that might show BOTH formats will survive.

Lets look at camcorders back in the late 80's early 90's when there was the debate of VHS-C vs 8mm video tapes. VHS-C could be put in a full size adaptor tape and played on your VHS VCR, 8mm can't. JVC (the inventor) and Panasonic pushed the VHS-C. While Sony pushed its 8mm format which used a better tape quaility (metal partical), lasted longer in both recording time (most tapes are 2 hours vs. 30 and 40 minutes for VHS-C) and shelf life. 8mm was also adapter by Canon, Sharp, RCA, and others. Which would win??? Fast forward to 2003 both formats are still available although both are losing out to the newer and better MiniDV tapes. Shows one never won out of the other.

If +R was so superior then Sony would have never made the first combo +R/-R drive. Same with Pioneer and everyone else.

Just goes to show Sony is not happy until people use their systems and it happens over and over again. Beta, 8mm, MemoryStick (couldn't just just on the CompactFlash bandwagon either, had to have ANOTHER memory card format for digital cameras) and now even their adoption of Digital 8 and DVD+R/RW. Sony is notorious to go against the grain and not have a standard established.

[Bob W]

What is S-VHS? One of my VHS players says it can play back S-VHS but not record so I was wondering if they even make the recorders since I have never ran across one.

[Excellerator]

What is S-VHS? One of my VHS players says it can play back S-VHS but not record so I was wondering if they even make the recorders since I have never ran across one.

S-VHS (Super VHS) is a higher quality 400+ line version of VHS. You needed a special recorder and tape that did S-VHS. There were mostly used for professional video editing. Basically the same thing as 8mm and Hi8 in the camcorder world. Most of the newer VCR's do something called Quasi S-VHS where they play S-VHS tapes at a standard resolution. They are not playing back at S-VHS resolution. Now there is also D-VHS which simply is a digital VHS.

[txpharoah]

I'm repeating some of this from an earlier post of mine on this topic...

Neither is truly "superior".

However, it is publicly known that +R was developed by data-driven companies for data applications. The -R format was developed by a core group of video-driven companies, including the DVD Forum - owners of the DVD logo. The outcome was that -R format is more compatible with DVD players, though that once-large 29% gap has narrowed in the past year to about 8% or so. DVD-R media is the official media of the DVD Forum, the group that owns and maintains the rights to the DVD format. The +R format is a rogue group from a business aspect.

It's all about marketing a product.

They merely market +R format to the newbies and non-techs... your casual kids and mothers and families. You buy at Best Buy and other local stores. This group is often afraid of the Internet or buying online. The +R forum has made the +R format the "AOL" of DVD burning. They merely made it easier and more available on prebuilt systems. The pricing is consumer priced.

They market -R to the techs, the video professionals, and the video hobbyists. We buy more media. We buy online. We buy in specialty shops. This group thrives online. This is also the top choice for businesses when pressing discs is not needed/wanted. We also rarely buy our computers pre-built, so it won't just come with whatever POS they slap into the case. The pricing is business/bulk priced.

Whatever demographic you fit in is what you will see and use, for the most part.

Nobody will ever "win" this "contest".

Very little will change in the future:

There are more -R buyers worldwide, in terms of media especially. The +R may sell more drives to average consumers in the USA, but they'll always buy less discs than the serious pro, hobbyist or business.

So the -R discs will continue to be cheaper and more widely available in places that sell to the -R demographic (meritline, allmediaoutlet, Fry's, etc). Most -R discs are sold in bulk. Only a minority is branded in cases. They still brand media (such as the new Ritek additions) for the hobbiests/techs that do use this format, although the silver-topped and gold-topped dominate for the business sales.

Since +R buyers rarely go online or to the specialty store, less +R will be available in bulk. Those people RARELY buy in bulk or visit tech-oriented stores. This is a consumer format, so you'll almost never see unbranded blank media.

Stores like Best Buy will maybe carry some -R, but since they mostly cater to the "AOL" audience, the +R discs will be more abundant, less expensive and will help them sell more pre-built HP machines. Why less expensive? Easy. They buy more of them at once, hence better costs, and the -R media will not move very fast in a place that mostly sells +R drives. Plus they are aware that we (as the -R demographic) buy online, and only go to the store when desperate, and will pay almost any price at that moment.

There have already been lots of changes in this market. I usually only see newbies that speculate about the demise of -R and complain about prices of media, as they have NO IDEA what the BIG PICTURE looks like, nor where this format has been in the past.

So again, EXPECT VERY LITTLE TO CHANGE.

The multi-format burners are not concessions by either side. It did appear so at the beginning (with Sony), but that idea of beginning to fade. They are each trying to blur the demographics in hopes of gaining a larger user base for their products. So far, it is not succeeding, as the multi-burners are having more tech/pricing issues than simply buying BOTH a +R and -R drive.

In the case of Pioneer, they no longer sell blank media. Because it was losing? No. Because it was a business decision, and plenty of other companies were making good media and half the cost. So with no more media-sales interests at their core finances, they can open up to allowing their burners to accept +R and maybe move more drives that way, even though they had NO PROBLEMS doing so in the past. I foresee the Pioneer A06 as the next big leap of DVD burning hardware (sorry guys, Sony and NEC failed for several reasons).