DVD+R/RW wins format war

[energy80s]

Why make a minidsk that few people can use whe for a fraction of the price I can burn a CD?

Maybe because most CD players can't play CDR discs!! And they are very easily scratched. I wouldn't dream of using a CDR for general audio playback, only for storage of raw wav/mpeg files.

[vance43211]

are u serious?

LP was eventually phrase out because the majority or people never used it

that was a shame though

because when hi-fi sound came out for vhs, lp mode was the compromise to almost having a beta tape (good video and sound and a 4hr max time)

but 95% of people with vcrs only used SP or SLP

everybody in the U.S. use EP mode

[Cornucopia]

energy80s:

I guess things really are different across the waves, because I'll use 99.9% of my Radio spot output for clients as CDR. Players don't have trouble here (except some OLD/Mobile/Discmans). More might have trouble with CDRW's, but even that is changing. It's a BIG marketing tag with Discmans and BoomBoxes these days--"CD-R/W support!", "MP3 disc support!".
The other .1% is evenly split between DAT and MD.
I also find that if I need to have a SUPER-LONG program, I'll just make an MP3 and put it on a Data disc.
As far as vulnerability, when it seems to matter, I'll buy premium discs with extra coating. So far, only 2 returns (and that was by a perennially complaining bitch!).
Personally, I don't like the idea of having an MD recording that I can't just dump back to a computer--there are no available, affordable MD decks that have USB/Firewire/etc. output (only input).

Vive La Difference?

Scott

[vance43211]

i back him up on that one

as long as u don't buy super cheap media (them 100 disc for $6.00 to 15.00 deals)

scratchy disc are not a problem

plus cdr will play in 95% of everything here

[solarfox]

We seem to have drifted somewhat from the original topic, but...

MiniDisc never really took off here in the U.S. (though it is still a presence) mostly because Sony botched the marketing. First, they tried to position it as a smaller, more versatile successor to Audio CD's (which weren't even ten years old at the time), when what it really was is the logical successor to cassettes. Then, they priced it too high for the mass market it needed to reach to be a success -- at close to four figures for a recorder and $20 for a 60-minute blank, the only people who were going to buy into it were high-end Audiophile Snob types, and they reacted to the idea of psychoacoustic compression about the way Dracula reacts to the cross.

By the time Sony woke up and got a clue, CD-R's were well established among the more tech-savvy users, and everyone else still considers cassettes "good enough" that they won't bother upgrading -- especially not when the paltry selection of equipment available at their local retailers, and the general ignorance of the format among the salespeople there, makes them think that the format must already be dead.

Personally, though, I love mine. They're great for use in the car for long trips since, like cassettes, with a little practice you can swap discs without ever taking your eyes off the road and without having to be too careful about how you grab them... and for live-recording of concerts, there's nothing that can beat its combination of sound quality and conceal-ability. 8)

[orbital517]

What happened is that the minidisk format doesn't even command 25% of marketshare compared to the CD format. When you walk into a music store......do you even see close to the amount (if any) of minidisks being sold as opposed to music CD's? Not even close.

MiniDisc is a recording format primarily. You won't find many prerecorded MiniDisc, but among home recordists, MiniDisc is alive and well. www.minidisc.org has lots of information, you obviously don't know much about the format, as most people don't. But people who are enthusiastic about home recording love it.

CD is also used as a recording format, and I would say more people use the CD to record over the minidisk. Anything that could be recorded on a minidisk can also be recorded to a CD. CD media is MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper compared to minidisk media. Like I said before.......yes there are "a few" people who like the minidisk format, but when compared to the CD format...........minidisk hold about no market share.

[solarfox]

Anything that could be recorded on a minidisk can also be recorded to a CD.

Oh? Show me the audio CD-R recorder which is (a) portable enough for field-recording conditions (i.e. small enough to carry around in one hand or in a belt pack, runs for several hours on AA batteries, takes microphone inputs, etc.), (b) allows for on-disc editing of the content, including dividing, merging, or deleting any track at will, or rearranging their playback order, and (c) lets you add text labeling to the tracks.

CD media is MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper compared to minidisk media.

Mmmm.... actually, when you compare MD blanks to CD-RW blanks, they're about the same. (Bearing in mind that since el-cheapo outfits like GQ don't make MD media, you have to compare prices to name brands like Sony, Maxell, or Memorex.)

In any case, this has little to do with the original subject under discussion. I think it's still way too soon to declare any kind of winner in the dash/plus argument; as the last three pages of postings have shown, you can use the sales statistics and such to "prove" just about anything, if you pick the right set of starting assumptions.

However -- just yesterday, I saw packs of DVD-R media for sale at the local Eckerd's drug store. (Wasn't looking for it, just happened to notice it as I was going past the rack.) That, I think, is a pretty good indicator that the dash format will stick around for a while; the blank-media section of a typical corner drugstore is so small to begin with, they don't give shelf space to anything they don't think they can do a decent turnover business in.

[coyote]

And I have seen +R in a CVS and a Duane Reade

[vance43211]

solarfox

that what we were trying to do

change the subject

u know how many heated arguments that had came up, everytime this stupid subject has came up

[energy80s]

It's interesting to see the difference ways media is used across the world. Here CDR's didn't make it into the mainstream until CD burners were sold for PC's (a couple of years ago). Standalone CD recorders are as rare as hens teeth with usually only a couple of models from Philips available. However with minidisc there are lots of machines available, right from play only walkmans, to hi-fi seperates, to midi systems. We even have combined CD players and MD recorders that copy at x2 playback speed. The average retail price of a blank 80 minute minidisc is about £1. Trade prices on a CDRW was 76p the last time I checked.

DVD burners are only starting to make it into the mainstream here. Standalone DVD recorders don't really exist in the marketplace, with Hard Disk recorders for DTH satellite services more prevelant. Widescreen is just starting to take off (thanks to the BBC) but high defination will not exist for many years to come. I guess it's different in the US. One thing I did notice was that cassette tapes are still used a lot over there. I was trying to get some decent digital recordings out of a couple of upstate New York radio stations and they didn't have any digital recording mediums at all (CD/MD/DAT). They said it was cassette or nothing ... so I took nothing!! Haven't bought a cassette tape since April 1999 (the time I got my first minidisc machine!!)

Anyway, back to the topic in hand ....

[txpharoah]

This poor thread. Talk about a MISinformation overload. So many incorrect facts about VHS and Beta and DVD-R and DVD+R. Wow, I don't know where to begin. I don't have time to elaborate too much.

Back when it truly was a war between VHS and BETA, SLP(EP) mode did not exist on a majority of machines. The play time had almost nothing to do with the loss. That's primarily a North American concept, the SLP/EP mode.

DVD-R are more compatible than DVD+R on video. Everybody knows it, including the + manufacturers.

Nobody is losing or winning. This is just pure malarky. Numbers can mean anything if you want them to. Read these reports with the scepticism they deserve. Each store picks what they want, that doesn't mean one is winning because the store is either sold out or doesn't stock that brand. Heck, the grocery store doesn't stock my favorite tv dinner, but Walmart does. Does that mean it lost out to all other tv dinners? No.

If you never see a -R burner, that just means you do not fit in the demographic of -R buyers. Sorry, but the +R drives are to -R as AOL is to the Internet. They're attacking the non-tech market for the most part, hence the preloaded +R drives. FYI: Most video companies and tech-oriented users do NOT buy pre-built systems from HP, Dell or Compaq. We build our own or have them custom-made from a supplier.

[energy80s]

FYI: Most video companies and tech-oriented users do NOT buy pre-built systems from HP, Dell or Compaq. We build our own or have them custom-made from a supplier.

In the UK, most computers are "self builds" too even if they are sold in a shop. However the general public don't usually know this as PC's are never advertised with specific brand names. Unlike most goods, I would never dream of using a "brand named" PC.

... and the fact that I am sitting here in the BBC using a Compaq system to post this with is totally irrelevant!!

[dcsos]

I agree with TXPHAROH
so much mis-information in this thread!

MINI-DISC..Big In JAPAN
Europe, and UK..some adoption
United States......No Adoption except fringes


Recording speeds SP LP & EP (slp or xp)
are INTERNATIONAL STANDARD VHS SPEEDS
IN JAPANESE made machines world wide
LP is being put on fewer machines as an option 'tho

Yes BETA III came out after they lost the war, and
so did VHS HI-FI
remember BETA had HI-FI first..didn't help them lose or win, 'tho

Is any one here old enough to remember the CAV(?) cartridge or the FAIRCHILD LOOP(?)
two early Point of Purchase AV devices used IN STORES ONLY (never for consumers)
The CAV was a Video Cartridge that pre-dated VHS and BETA by 5 or 10 years....
and the FAIRCHILD was its predecessor, a SUPER 8 with sync sound that played short FILM CLIPS right in the record store (circa 1961 or 2)

[vance43211]

TXPHAROH said

Back when it truly was a war between VHS and BETA, SLP(EP) mode did not exist on a majority of machines. The play time had almost nothing to do with the loss. That's primarily a North American concept, the SLP/EP mode.

i donb't know about overseas

but here in america

when vhs came out with the slp mode

beta disappear off the face of the planet

and THAT WHAT KILLED IT HERE.

people want 6 hr of recording time

not 3 hr of superior video and sound

i know beta had hi-fi first

because back then u could actually listen to beta hook up to a stereo stystem,

but vhs sound only be listen to with a limited range speaker with distortion added in (TV)

[SatStorm]

In my country, Beta was more expensive in the mid 80s and had only few movies to rent from the Video-Clubs (places to rent tapes with movies).
So, anyone here got VHS. In 1987, VHS was so much more cheap, even sony hellas stoped importing Beta. Only some Pros used it. Later, with the appearance of SVHS, beta was a history thing.

Also, Sonic Music Europe, until 1995, used to send all the video - clips, each month, on the various TV stations, only on Beta tapes! So, all the music channels, had to have at least one Beta player to convert the videos to SVHS!. That was the before DVD days... (ancient history, I know...)

The price was what kill Beta in Europe. I don't know for US.
And I also know that untill summer 2002, sony produced Beta NTSC VCRs. Now who would buy them, I don't know...

[energy80s]

It seems that in America you don't have 3 hour VHS tapes. That's why you are trying to extend the running times of shorter tapes. In the UK 3 and 4 hour tapes are all thats available, and this is fine for most people. Not all VHS machines even have a long play facility and the picture quality is very grotty when you do use it. I have even seen E300 tapes (five hours at standard play) from BASF, but as the tape is very thin, I wouldn't recommend using them as they could easily break.

[Cornucopia]

Man, we are so off-topic now!

Oh well,
energy80s:
Here in the US, Standard consumer VHS tapes are and have always been "T-120" or 2hr/4hr/6hr. If you buy via internet or wholesale supplier, you can find 127 min., 150 min., 160 min. and VERY RARELY 180 min. Up until mid-1990's, you wouldn't want to get anything longer than 127's, cuz the tape was too thin and would get eaten up in the VCR.

Back on topic:
"DVD-R is the Best!" (flame-on!) :P

Scott

[energy80s]

I didn't realise that your tapes ran for a shorter length of time - I assume that the tape must run quicker as the cassette shell is the same size the world over so could therefore fit in the same amount of recording tape! I suppose this means that we get get 8 hours on one video tape at half speed and you can only get 6 hours at one third speed. Strike another victory up for PAL !!!

Anyway, I just bought my first DVD Burner today (still haven't got it plumbed in as I'm in work until 10pm) it's a Teac-badged Pioneer 105 which cost £140 ($232) so that will now allow me to archive broadcast quality TV at home and do away with the VCR once and for all!

[Cornucopia]

Just today my purchasing manager was complaining that he had "mistakenly" ordered the wrong length of tape. I happened to be right there when he pulled one out of the packaging. I took a look at it.
Lo and behold! This batch of tapes is stamped "T-45 / E-60". So there you have it. Mystery solved. The linear speed of VHS is either the same or very close to the same for both PAL and NTSC, but if you calculated it as frames per foot, you will see that-since PAL needs less frames per second-it can hold more seconds per foot. (or "Meter" for everybody besides USA)
Personally, I wish the whole world would standardize on 1 VeryHi-Def standard; say 48bit losslessly compressed 4000x2000 at 72 frames/second progressive. (Oh, yeah, make it stereo 3D--my gig) Now that would be a goal to shoot for! 8)

Just to keep this on topic:
You know, if I knew nothing technically about DVD or even home video in general, and I was looking for a consumer recorder and didn't want to do any research nor learn how to author on a computer; if all I wanted to do was record stuff off of TV/Sat or my camcorder and do simple edits and chaptering, then DVD+R/W would probably be a very attractive option. But that's just it. THAT is what it's set up to do, THAT is who it's geared for. So it doesn't surprise me that DVD+ is doing well at Best Buy, etc.
But that is not the whole "war", that's just a certain "battlefield" or certain "campaign".
I do this stuff for real. I do it for clients and customers. I don't want to mess with something that "mimics" the nicely authored real thing. I want the real thing. I want DVD-ROM, or the next best thing (that means DVD-R). I do this everyday and need to keep costs down, particularly MEDIA costs. I demand the most compatibility and longevity for myself and my clients. The only thing that fits these requirements is DVD-R. I've got a Pioneer PVR-9000 settop recorder-works great. And it's paid for itself by now, even as expensive as it was (~US$1900) and I've only had it for a year. Next year, I'll probably be getting the new Pioneer monster recorder. That thing can do batch downloads, record @4x to 2 simultaneous drives, and lots of other fun stuff. I'm getting a 4x DVD-R duplicator tower this year, just to keep the main authoring station from getting bottlenecked and expand the duplicating turnaround capabilities. This is all DVD-R. I'll probably wait until Pioneer's A07 is out at ~Christmas so I will be able to do 8x authoring. Sweet! Still more DVD-R. Don't ask about DVD-RW, I use that really only for testing, just like CD-RW. And just like I would do with DVD+RW if I had that.
Just 2 more things for DVD+R people to think about.
If you ever are doing so well that you end up wanting to actually replicate a real stamped DVD-ROM, you might have to get your DVD+R copied over to a DVD-R, cuz AFAIK there are currently NO replicators that use that as a master. But they DO use DVD-R (as well as DLT).
Also, now that there are a number of manufacturers doing DVD-duplication towers, there are versions for DVD-R and DVD+R, except the DVD+R's are $700 more expensive ($9200 for 8*4xDVD-R vs $9900 for 8*4xDVD+R at DiscMakers). Guess which one gets bought more often? And guess which MEDIA gets bought in bulk more often?

The final word really should be that both formats have their uses and that neither will be going away for a while. When they do, I hope it will be a single standard that replaces them. I've had enough of this!!!

Scott

[atb]

AS my point of view, there is no need to argue which format would win the war, the only winner here is the company who market DUAL FORMAT drives, like NEC, SONY, PIONNER'(A06), SANYO, and all the consumer who bought DUAL drives. The media cost is going down both DVD-R/DVD+R, and most of new DVD Players support both format. This kind of arguments is more like arguing which burn-proof or just-link is better for CD-R burning? It doesn't Matter! GOT IT !?Why should we care which format wins? Only thing we should care about is which kind of blank disc is more reliable and cheap!

[Bob W]

All I care about is what media is the cheapest.

[Ducatti20]

Just to assist with getting back on topic...
DVD-R kicks DVD+R in the tail!! And uh... it works in allmost all DVD players!! Hmm... The media is easier to find!!! Umm... 4X generic from the gas station on the corner works great!!
(in case anyone wonders I am being sarcastic.. an attempt at 3:00 am humour)
But since I own a -R format burner, I couldn't tell you from personal ex. as to the plusses or minuses (pun intended). Hedge your bets.. buy dual.

[goldmember1]

DVD+RW supports lossless linking/sector replacement across the entire disc

Only DVD+RW offers very accurate lossless linking within the basic specification of the system. This means that it can replace individual sectors on the disc at any given location. This results in the writing of sectors on the disc that remain fully compatible with existing DVD-ROM drives (and even the more critical DVD-Video players in case you are creating a DVD-Video disc). This is DVD+RW's most powerfull feature, which allows for all kinds of behaviour that's not possible with other recordable DVD systems. For example, you can replace the menu of a disc within seconds, without the need of rewriting the entire disc. On top of this, lossless linking allows for high performance drag-'n-drop applications like packet writing or Mount Rainier support (see below). DVD-RW does not offer this degree of lossless linking capability. It might optionally support some form of buffer underrun protection, but this is something different from "lossless linking", as it does not allow the user to replace sectors on a written disc.


DVD+RW offers DVD+VR support

DVD+RW drives offer DVD+VR (DVD+RW Video Recording) support. Contrary to the VR format that can be found on DVD-RW video recorders, the DVD+VR is fully compatible with existing DVD-Video players, without sacrificing all the neat editing functionality. Using a DVD+VR capable authoring tool, you could for example change the background of the menu, edit out commercials or replace a part of a video recording, all within a matter of seconds and without the need of rewriting the entire disc. Since DVD-RW cannot change the contents of a disc already written, you need to rewrite the entire disc when you made a change to it.


DVD+RW supports defect management

DVD-RW does not support any form of defect management within the basic system, which could lead to reading errors in a DVD-ROM drive or even hangups of a DVD-Video player when your disc contains a minor error. DVD+RW incorporates a defect management system by default which was designed to be 100% invisible to existing drives and players, so that the discs can be read as if they were normal DVD-ROM or DVD-Video discs.


DVD+RW supports addressing during recording

DVD-RW does not allow address information (which is stored in land pre-pits on a DVD-RW disc) to be read during the recording process, hence it's impossible to locate at what position of the disc the writing process is taking place. When the writing process is being interrupted due to a shock of the drive, it's nearly impossible to return to the previous writing location. DVD+RW allows the address information (stored in the disc's wobble signal) to be read during recording, so that in case of a writing problem, the writing can be continued at the previous location. This feature also allows for the lossless linking principle as explained above: since a DVD+RW drive knows when to stop recording, it can accurately replace parts of a disc at sector level.


DVD+RW has a 2.4 times higher basic writing speed

The basic writing speed of DVD+R and DVD+RW is 2.4x speed. This means that any DVD+R/+RW drive will write all DVD+R and DVD+RW media at least at 2.4x speed. Most newer models will write both disc formats at 4x speed on 4x speed media, otherwise they will write at 2.4x speed.
For DVD-RW, the basic writing speed is 1x. Newer generations will write 2x certified media at 2x speed, otherwise they will write at 1x speed. Also for DVD-R, the basic writing speed is 1x. Although all DVD-R/-RW drives are capable of writing DVD-R media at 2x speed, you need certified media to do so, otherwise a DVD-R disc will be written at 1x speed. Newer drives offer 4x writing speed for 4x certified media, but these drives will write 2x certified media at 1x speed.


DVD+RW and DVD+R media only come in one type

DVD+RW and DVD+R discs only come in one type (with the sole exception that for 4x speed writing, you need 4x speed media). There's no difference in discs for PC or video recording usage, discs for professional authoring or consumer usage, discs with and without several forms of copy protection, or discs with a smaller capacity than the standard 4.7 GB.
With DVD-R, you have "authoring" and "general" drives, each with their own writing media (which can not be used in drives of the other type) and the discs come in different capacities (3.95 or 4.7 GB). DVD-RW discs come with and without CPRM copy protection (for usage on DVD-RW video recorders), and in different versions (1.0 and 1.1), with the 1.0 discs not allowing you to make DVD-compatible recordings on a DVD-RW video recorder.


DVD+RW offers quick background formatting

When you want to use your rewrtitable DVD discs, the discs needs to be formatted first. With DVD+RW, this format procedure is performed in the background, invisible to the user, and nearly without consuming any time. The drive starts formatting a small portion of disc first (lead-in area and part of the data area, required to start writing). It then resumes for the remaining portion automatically in the background when there is no writing or reading operation (Background Formatting). This feature enables to start initial writing immediately. Background formatting shall be suspended should additional reading/writing be required. Discs that are only partially formatted can be ejected from the drive, maintaining the compatibility with existing DVD-ROM drives, and formatting automatically continues when you re-insert the disc. Older DVD-RW drives required you to format a full disc at 1x speed, so you had to wait for over one hour before you can start recording to the disc. With some newer -RW drives you can use some form of a software application to perform a quick format which has to be initiated by the user. It cannot be interrupted, so you have to wait for it to complete before you can start writing to the disc.


Optional: DVD+RW system offers Mount Rainier (EasyWrite) support

DVD+RW is the only recordable DVD system that may optionally offer drives with Mount Rainier-based drag-'n-drop support, also known as EasyWrite. The Mount Rainier specification was set up by Microsoft, Compaq/HP, Philips and Sony, and was originally designed for new CD-RW drives. For DVD+RW, the group created the DVD+MRW specification. The specification allows for various advantages over normal packet-writing software, such as full random access, Defect Management handled by the drive (or by a dedicated Read-Only device driver), Physical formatting performed in background by the drive (without interaction with the host computer), the disc will be available for use immediately after insertion and ejecting the disc before the Background Formatting process is completed is possible. As Mt. Rainier support will be a standard feature of upcoming Microsoft Windows releases, you won't need any software application to use your DVD+RW discs as big removable floppy disks. Drives with DVD+MRW support are currently appearing on the market and when they become available, you may use the same DVD+RW discs you already use with your current DVD+RW drive. DVD-RW will never offer Mt. Rainier (EasyWrite) support, as it is not part of its specification.


Optional: DVD+RW system supports both CAV and CLV writing

Besides CLV operation, DVD+RW drives may optionally also support recording in CAV mode. CLV (Constant Linear Velocity) is usually used in audio or video recorders (such as CD-Audio recorders or DVD-Video recorders). Using CLV, the drive's spinning speed is decreased from the beginning to the end of the disc. CAV (Constant Angular Velocity) allows the disc to spin at a constant rate, enabling faster access times. To maintain compatibility and recording space on the disc, the laser in a DVD+RW drive just burns "faster" (or actually at a larger power) at the beginning of a disc, so that all pits are equally as big and the discs are equally as compatible with current DVD players and drives as a disc recorded in CLV mode. CAV recording might be important in applications where writing speed and access times are critial. No current DVD+RW drives support CAV, but when they become available, they will use the same DVD+RW media that you already use with your current DVD+RW drive. DVD-RW will never offer CAV recording, as it is not part of its specification.
:P

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[vance43211]

vance 43211 quote

and to all who think their format is better than the other one

GET A f#@*ING LIFE

i guess you all aren't

[TBoneit]

I didn't realise that your tapes ran for a shorter length of time - I assume that the tape must run quicker as the cassette shell is the same size the world over so could therefore fit in the same amount of recording tape! I suppose this means that we get get 8 hours on one video tape at half speed and you can only get 6 hours at one third speed. Strike another victory up for PAL !!!

Anyway, I just bought my first DVD Burner today (still haven't got it plumbed in as I'm in work until 10pm) it's a Teac-badged Pioneer 105 which cost £140 ($232) so that will now allow me to archive broadcast quality TV at home and do away with the VCR once and for all!

It's the 25Fps for Pal versus the 30Fps for NTSC that sets the tape speed. The E180 that some slime were importing and selling to no-nothings only ran a little bit over 2 hours at Sp speed, I don't recall the exact run time.

But figure it out PAL tape runs at 5/6th the speed of NTSC tape so the same length of tape will record longer.

Cheers

[RAAGAAman]

Hey PhilipL you forgot one.

DVD+RW offers quick background formatting

Actually DVD-RW has quick format that is faster than DVD+RW.

I have all three formats. DVD-R/RW, +R/RW and RAM.
I really cannot say there is really any big difference between -R/RW and +R/RW formats. If you are doing video backups -R and +R are equal with the exception of possibly media availability. +R has better compatibility if the book code value is "DVD-ROM". If it is "DVD+R" you will see less compatibility. +RW seems to have better overwrite qualities than -RW.
I can erase and write a +RW disk more times than -RW. For RAM, it was the best format technically since the Defect management is built into the disk and drive and the overwrites are enormous. I have Panasonic set top recorder and it is way better than the Philips recorders I have seen.
I say all of the formats are here to stay but for compatibility with DVD players it is a wash for -R and +R. Buy a dual and be done with it.


RG

[dcsos]

Is there some way the moderators can remove all that INCORRECT MARKETSPEAK the Goldmember slavishly posted? (perhaps without doubting its veracity!)

If we want press releases posted here, we'll ask for them

DVDRAM is the only format of all that has superior error correction..that's why it takes so long to copy a RAM on yer computer...

Most of the REWRITABLE MENU stuff he cites is for VRO recoring on a SETOP

WE DON'T WANT TO REVISE our MENUS after the fact Goldmemeber!!
WE WANT to send out un alterable stuff to CLIENTS
maybe you're alway revising your HOME MOVIE's captured to DVD..
but we want something that will LAST

DVD-R

[dcsos]

DVD+RW has a 2.4 times higher basic writing speed

And where is the 2.4 TIMES considered FAST other than the DVD+R website?

I'm burning at 4x you can't get that fast with your DVD+R or +RW

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn