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  1. Member monoxide77's Avatar
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    in a few years both formats will be dead anyway. i guess then we'll be debating which is better BluRay-R or BluRay+R.

    I can't figure out why people get so defensive about DVDR formats. i personally use -R. i've found it more compatible on set-top players (especially ones 3-4 years old) and I like the media prices. if -R dies i'm not going to cry about it, i guess i'll have to start using +R. I don't think -R will die though. Maybe the -R drives will die but then again maybe the +R drives will die too since they are all going to be dual-format. there probably won't be any exclusively -R or +R. You'll have a choice which media you wish to buy, and I'm certain -R media outsells +R handily.
    Laserdiscs are cool, but laserdiscs on DVD-Rs are cooler.
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    Originally Posted by Cyrax9
    Ok here's my take:
    Due to the fact that _R is cheap and +R is expensive, and despite higher quality, -R will probably be the preferred choice for PC/Mac Users.
    .
    Example:
    Ritek only because it is what I use, but the prices are starting to blur, see what I mean? The price difference is not as cut and dry as it once was. The difference now approximately +/- $.30.9 USea. You can judge burn speed value? Most of my work is also on -R on Pioneers but I also own 2 HP200i and like them very much.

    DVD-R 50ea @$72.50US
    That is 1.45ea for 1x media Hack 2x
    http://www.shop4tech.com/user.htm?go=view_item&id=90&cata=1&s_cata=88

    DVD+R 50ea @$87.99US
    That is 1.76ea for 2.5x media
    http://www.shop4tech.com/user.htm?go=view_item&id=175&cata=1&s_cata=88
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    Just my 2 cents worth here:

    http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,110662,00.asp

    Only 3 are +R/+RW. (P.S. Mine is #2) Yea!

    Sorry. I still don't even have it yet but I should be the end of the week.
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  4. Member dcsos's Avatar
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    after all, If your on a MAC, you gotta go thru mods to EVEN read or WRITE to the PLUS SIDE of a DUAL FORMAT
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's nonsense. I put my DVD+R/RW drive into a firewire case and have no problem burning DVD's with my iBook. No problems at all....
    Thanks for the correction THAYNE..my bud had some diffulties,
    but he put the drive inside!
    (voiding his warrantee I think-FIREWIRE like you have is the WAY to go
    I think) and his drive-hp plus- wouldn't function with DISC COPY, DVDSTUDIO PRO or iDVD while tOAST SAW the drive(OS9.1)..

    Can you see your PLUS ONLY DRIVE in the MAC OSX APPS..or just TOAST?


    Besides, I thought "Pros" used DAT tape's.
    I think you meant to say "DLT's"..They only use these tape format
    (DLT) TO MAKE A MASTER for DUAL LAYER (sent out to be fabricated) or to back up 30 gig worth of files)
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    LanEvo7 said

    Who cares, the players can't recognize the difference after its burned anyway. So if +R does win its not like -R people have to throw all their already burned discs out the window.
    that about sums it up

    i do question how long a dual format dvd drive will burn dvds however since it is burning 2 different type of dvds

    i suspect a one format drive will burn way more dvds than a dual format one

    how about this

    since burners are so cheap now

    let everybody buy 1 dvd -rw and 1 dvd+rw drive for about $300.00 together

    and let forget about this stupid thread

    as we will have the best of both worlds

    and they (dvd drives) will probably last 10x longer

    than a one dual format drive
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  6. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    As for the BETA vs VHS thing I would like to point out that ONE of the reasons BETA died out was that video rental stores had to carry BOTH formats so they had to buy 2 of every movie (one in BETA and one in VHS) and at some point they (the video rental stores) had to pick which one they would support and although MORE people had BETA at FIRST the VHS machines began to OUT-SELL the BETA machine because they were cheaper. The company that made VHS (VICTOR) would basically let anyone make a VHS VCR with a very small licensing fee. SONY (who made BETA) charged a much higher licensing fee and only let a few other companies make BETA VCR machines so you had many more companies making VHS VCR machine at MUCH lower prices. I think the video rental stores "jumped" at that and started to only carry (at least SOME titles) ONLY in the VHS format. This "made" people want to go with VHS even more.

    Now with DVD+R vs DVD-R you don't really have the pre-record "prolbem" because any commercial made DVD will play in any type of DVD recorder. It now comes down which is cheaper and/or easier to get ahold of and this includes NOT just the BURNER (computer based or stand alone) but also the MEDIA. This is were DVD-R might be in trouble because for WHATEVER reasons the market seems to want to push DVD+R on us. I have never ever seen any of the PIONEER burners in a retail store. In fact I have never seen a DVD-R only burner in a retail store. You almost always see DVD+R only or the combo units (that SONY has made famous). You also have the fact that most pre-built computers also seem to come with DVD+R only or, in the case of SONY computers, the combo units.

    Ok that is MOSTLY the computer market there. What about the stand alone market? You got PANASONIC pretty much dominating THAT with their DVD-R/DVD-RAM recorders. Yes there are some Philips made DVD+R and soon there will be more but so far PANASONIC is the winner ... and let us not forget that most "pros" who use stand alone DVD recorders go with Pioneer models which use DVD-R/RW

    In the end I think it will come down to the average "American Joe" and what "he/she" can get their hands on. I don't think DVD-R will go away ANYTIME soon but I do see DVD+R taking over since the market seems to want to go that way. At least in terms of computer burners.

    However, having said that, while I think DVD+R will "win" I do see combo units perhaps becomming MORE popular and I think the market will split to the point where you have DVD+R only units and COMBO units but no DVD-R units (otherthan stand alone DVD recorders). In the very end I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if the combo units actually become the norm because if DVD-R is going to retain it's rather large market share of the stand alone market ... plus the fact that there is already a large base of DVD-R users ... it just makes sense.

    However, I would like to point out that HAD the market not FORCED or LEANED toward DVD+R like it has ... in other words if DVD+R and DVD-R were AS COMMON at retail stores (and in common retail store pre-built computers) ... so the USER could pick ... I think DVD-R would have been a CLEAR winner.

    But we are prone to buying what the bigwigs in Corporate America want us to buy and for WHATEVER reasons that does seem to be DVD+R burners.

    For the record I support DVD-R because I need DVD-RAM capabilities (I have the Panny DVD burner and a Panny stand alone DVD recorder) and I also like the fact that DVD-R is more compatible with "older" stand alone DVD players. Also as an early adopter of the technology it was CLEAR that DVD-R was ahead of the game and that early DVD+R burners were crap with expensive media ... but things change ...

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    FulciLives

    vhs won over beta

    because people prefer 6 hrs of video on one tape

    over superior video and sound
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  8. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vance43211
    FulciLives

    vhs won over beta

    because people prefer 6 hrs of video on one tape

    over superior video and sound
    Well I think that is a rather simplistic take on it.
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  9. -R is better, no +R is better, crap no, dual is better, oh shit I don't know what to think anymore. Hey, how about someone out there tell me what's right. Oh I see, Pcworld will tell me or that other bogus report that is so cryptic and intentionally spread to the media just to misguide; 10 ppl read it and you get 10 different interpretations. Right. Just look at all the variations we got on this thread about it.

    Look, here's my point. I think alot of you +R/RW folks are having "buyer's remorse" because you just picked up the "loser" format.

    Now you want to prove your point and you will cling on to any little precious tid bit from an article here, a graph there, and some big chain stores that "sell out" because the + propoganda machine is trying to get your money. And stores will support any manufacturer that offers them the most money. So its an easy sell for the + camp.

    Enter blue-ray disk and its derivatives. This will drastically change the business model for both of the camps, but mostly the + camp because the are being pushed out early causing them to loose potentially alot more money that would have been there for them had blue-ray not shortened its duration to sell in the market. Where - camp has already been out and made alot more money, even if the + camp is going strong now. And this is still debateble. Its very hard to find a true unbiased report about this. Just remember, don't believe everything you read.

    But at what cost for the + camp? Lower profit margins, thats what. With higher advertising costs and heavy promotion. The game is big for the + camp. They must make a move now cause of blue-ray factor. Its already upon us. Don't kid yourself with oh its gonna cost too much. This is what everyone said about all dvd burners, especially the +, and look now, less then a year later, the demand is very high for them cause its already cheap. Thanks in part to competition from - camp and exploding emergence of the dual format burners. Right, yes, nod your head. :P

    This is one reason, and I think a big one, why they are pushing these promotions and deals with stores, magazines, and anything else. Just look at the burner I have, I've tried many different brands with this burner, but without any hesitation, the - disks I distribute to my clients are never turned back and more compatible with the older players, that mind you, alot more ppl have than the newer ones. The + has not given me as much success. Thats why I pass them up (+) everyday and I keep on bugging the Best Buy ppl to restock the - format disks.
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    I'm going back to 4track BetaMax myself.

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  11. I cant be arsed to read all the posts here. I don't care whats happening in the US (i.e. you are being ripped off on your - media). In the UK the facts speak for themselves:

    - media is roughly 1/3 of the price of + media (4x)
    Dual format writers are preferred for the +RW side, but no-one buys a + only writer.
    - only writers are way more common than + only, with the Pioneer 105 being the main player.

    But I don't really care TBH. Both medias will be around for years to come, there's too big a customer base to ignore. We'll all have dual format for our next burners and we'll probably be upgrading within a year. So who really cares? Does + work for you? Then use it! -? Good for you! Is this the only war going where no-one really gives a damn? Hell yes!
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  12. The Old One SatStorm's Avatar
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    Dual DVD burners wins the format war
    Not the plus format!
    And this is somehow logical. The costumers "afraid" to buy an only -R burner, after all this marketing "blah blah" he hears. Expecially in mass controlled by the marketing countries, like America. From the other hand, the same person want to use the cheapest working possible solution today. So, the idea is really simply: He buys a dual DVD burner as the marketing system points and he use only -R discs because there are cheaper. He thinks that he is clever that way, 'cause soon, as the great marketing bullshit-heads point him, the +R discs gonna win (what that means? That they gonna turn cheaper? Anything gonna turn cheaper, so the war gonna be what has better quality in the future, not what gonna turn cheaper....), so he could use them, while the stupid owners of -R burners gonna have to pay more to use the more expensive - R discs at the time (a scenario I can't follow, because I can't understand how +R discs gonna turn cheaper the -R discs while the -R sales are so great today... Let's not talk about the +R disc sales...)

    That is totally silly, 'cause any burner USED for real, can't live more than 2 years. So, it is silly to buy now and have in mind what shall happen in 2 years.

    In 2 years we all gonna buy new burners. Fasters ones, better ones. And the cost gonna be less than 100 euro/dollars.


    And from my point of view, currently it is -R all the way! I can buy 4X ~ 1.80 euro from "Thats" right now (no bulk). This price is SciFi in Europe for DVD+R discs.

    And the way I see it, Pioneer is clever: It adds + support at their burners, just to not be an excuse from the big US manufactures to not use their products! The way I see it, eventually, this gonna help the - R discs!

    In the matter of fact, all the dual format burners helps the - R format! And that because those products can satisfy the costumer's need for wider future compatibility (a marketing trick), with the opportunety to use the cheaper solution today. (which by the way, is the real need)

    And after all, we as costumers, we have to be happy with this situation: If all the burners are Dual format, then we don't care for true what disc we useing. We simply go to the shop and buy the chepest discs we can found. Since our burners gonna support both formats, who really gonna care if the Disc is + or - ? He gonna care for the price and the quality. And when the burner gonna turn 6X and 8X, who gonna notice really writing speed improbement by the + format? In theory, the +R discs at 8X gonna be about 5 seconds faster. And so?


    I really can't understand this blah blah anymore... It is silly.

    For as, the costumers is really good to see that DVD burners turn dual format. That has nothing to do with which format wins!
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  13. All this talk about PC manufacturers installing +R/RW drives is missing a salient point. For years PC's have been sold with CD burners but it has been my experience that very few people who buy the computers ever use them for copying CD's or very much else. Now copying CD's, as we all know is childs play so how many will learn how to copy DVD's, or download from the Internet and turn out DVD's. Very few as it's a whole lot more complex so sales of the blank media will not necessarily reflect the number of drives in the marketplace.

    Quite honestly all I've seen so far has been hot air produced by marketing hype that want people to believe the bulls**t that they expound. I know it goes on because I work for a company sales department and I help produce the inanities that are passed off as 'scientific guidance'. Everybody is out to sell their product regardless of how good or bad it is and they will produce 'studies' that say what they want it too. Anybody who has handled statistics will tell you that they can be made to say anything you want.

    The only true way to see which will win out on this marketing mud slinging match is to wait and see what happens.

    <phew!> Can I get off my soapbox now?
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  14. Is it just me, or does everyone who posts in these war threads just feel a need to defend their own purchase? Both sides are doing it, I suppose no-one wants to feel like they made the wrong choice. There is no actual benefit in the argument after all, we already have our burners and won't buy another just cos someone says we were wrong.

    Out of interest, is there anyone out there that bought one format and wishes they'd bought the other? If not, then everyones happy. If everyones happy, who cares what they use? We've already proven the media won't dissapear with all these burners sold, so it is a bit irrelevant really.
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  15. Originally Posted by orbital517
    I remember when Sony's minidisc format came out. It was supposed to be the "next generation" to the CD, but look what happened.
    Why, what happened??

    Minidisc is the major home digital recording system in use today. DAT is used for professionals only. CDR's are far too dodgey for most CD players and scratch too easily. Cassettes have all but died. MP3 players never really took off, that leaves minidisc. Just to let you know that until a month ago, the BBC used minidiscs exclusively for music playout on its two main national radio networks.

    Anyway, as far as the VHS v's Betamax war was concerned. The outcome of that was to do with the equipment rental chains who were supporting VHS through the Ferguson brand (JVC). In the early 1980's most people rented their TV's and videos rather than buying them. Since they had no choice of format in the High Street shops they all went for VHS. Then the film rental shops realised that no-one had a Betamax machine at home and therefore didn't stock any Beta movies.

    Oh and Beta had a longer recording time than VHS (3.25 hours v's 3 hours) and was first with Hi-Fi stereo too. Of course the best system was Video 2000, but that was introduced too late into the market and died on its arse.
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  16. Damnit, that's it, I've had enough. I'm going to invent a new format, call it DVD*R, and turn the whole home DVD burning market right over on it's fat ass! I'll sell it in Stop & Shop and Walgreens and get better distribution than either format and ultimately dominate market share. I might even build a trojan horse into the drives to that anything you burn gets uploaded to my 700 terabyte storage area network so that I don't have to back up and reauthor movies myself.
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    All this bashing of the +RW format ignores one important point: This is a video forum and everyone here is heavily biased towards video applications. -R/RW is not a great format for data storage, and there were no dual mode -R/-RAM drives for a long time (and the ones I've seen are still slower than -R/RW or +R/RW). Frankly I don't see why everyone is so surprised and offended that the big players in the PC optical storage market (Sony, Philips, HP etc.) decided to come up with a compromise standard that meets both data storage and video needs in a single, inexpensive format.
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    FulciLives

    i guess only 1 person figured out i was trying to change the subject

    You_Are_Alive

    get a life

    energy80s

    it was like that at first

    but then they invented lp(4hr) and slp(6hr) mode and that sealed beta's fate

    i like beta better though (even though i was a young one)
    because of the picture and sound. i use to hook our vcrs up to the stereo
    and u couldn't stand to listen to the vhs one (too much hiss)

    and to all who think their format is better than the other one

    GET A f#@*ING LIFE
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  19. Originally Posted by vance43211
    energy80s

    it was like that at first

    but then they invented lp(4hr) and slp(6hr) mode and that sealed beta's fate
    No, recording times had nothing to do with Betamax's demise. FYI ... Video 2000 had a recording time of up to 16 hours per tape (as both sides of a cassette were used - just like an audio tape), with great picture quality and perfect slow motion / still frames due to DTF heads. And I've never heard of SLP and I've been working in the video business since 1985.
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  20. Originally Posted by energy80s
    Originally Posted by vance43211
    energy80s

    it was like that at first

    but then they invented lp(4hr) and slp(6hr) mode and that sealed beta's fate
    No, recording times had nothing to do with Betamax's demise. FYI ... Video 2000 had a recording time of up to 16 hours per tape (as both sides of a cassette were used - just like an audio tape), with great picture quality and perfect slow motion / still frames due to DTF heads. And I've never heard of SLP and I've been working in the video business since 1985.
    SLP is also known as EP. I've seen it called either one, depending on the manufacturer of the VCR deck. SLP = Super Long Play, EP = Extended Play.
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    the vcr's that out to the public way back when

    was beta (something like 3hr max) superior video and sound

    and vhs (6 hr max) 3 to 4 movies on one tape but not so good quality

    that vcr (Video 2000) was something that came out long after the war was over

    that's strange

    u been in the video business since 1985 and haven't heard of SLP (now called EP)

    LP was eventually phrase out because the majority or people never used it

    that was a shame though

    because when hi-fi sound came out for vhs, lp mode was the compromise to almost having a beta tape (good video and sound and a 4hr max time)

    but 95% of people with vcrs only used SP or SLP
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    Originally Posted by energy80s
    Originally Posted by orbital517
    I remember when Sony's minidisc format came out. It was supposed to be the "next generation" to the CD, but look what happened.
    Why, what happened??

    Minidisc is the major home digital recording system in use today. DAT is used for professionals only. CDR's are far too dodgey for most CD players and scratch too easily. Cassettes have all but died. MP3 players never really took off, that leaves minidisc. Just to let you know that until a month ago, the BBC used minidiscs exclusively for music playout on its two main national radio networks.


    What happened is that the minidisk format doesn't even command 25% of marketshare compared to the CD format. When you walk into a music store......do you even see close to the amount (if any) of minidisks being sold as opposed to music CD's? Not even close.
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  23. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    energy80s:
    I generally enjoy your posts and respect your point of view, but you are not remembering recording speeds correctly. I'm standing in front of a rack of decks right now, which include Betamax and VHS. Both have stated speeds of:

    SP (Standard Play)
    LP (Long Play)
    SLP (SuperLong Play) aka EP (Extended Play), sometimes called XP

    VHS tapes of standard length give times as:
    SP=120 min (2 hours)
    LP=240 min (4 hours)
    EP=360 min (6 hours)

    while std Betamax tapes give times as:
    SP ("Beta I")=1+ hour
    LP ("Beta II")=3 hours
    EP ("Beta III")=5 hours

    Lots of factors were involved with Beta's demise, but available tape recording time certainly was one of the main reasons.

    BTW, I've been doing video and audio since the early 80's also.

    Scott
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  24. Just to get this straight.


    What is the difference between -R and +R mediawise?

    Maybe manufacturers will start making media that can be burned by both
    -R and +R recorders.

    That'd be cool...
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  25. What happened is that the minidisk format doesn't even command 25% of marketshare compared to the CD format. When you walk into a music store......do you even see close to the amount (if any) of minidisks being sold as opposed to music CD's? Not even close.
    MiniDisc is a recording format primarily. You won't find many prerecorded MiniDisc, but among home recordists, MiniDisc is alive and well. www.minidisc.org has lots of information, you obviously don't know much about the format, as most people don't. But people who are enthusiastic about home recording love it.

    Keep it up I love reading format war threads. This is almost as fun as the SACD/DVD-Audio wars.

    BTW, the difference in quality between Beta and VHS was minimal. Beta was better, but by a very small margin.
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    i'm telling u this

    beta came out with that 5 hour mode

    after it was dead and buried

    all the beta vcrs that were in actual people homes (MY AUNT STILL HAS HER ORIGNAL ONE WHICH WE USE TO WATCH TERMINATOR ON 8x A WEEK) only had A THREE hour max recording limit
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  27. [quote="Philbiker"]
    www.minidisc.org has lots of information, you obviously don't know much about the format, as most people don't. But people who are enthusiastic about home recording love it.
    Can't be that widespread then
    I've had a minidisk recorder since '98, and have maybe 20 disks for it. I just don't need it, I prefer CDs. Why make a minidsk that few people can use whe for a fraction of the price I can burn a CD? Sure some people will find it more useful but TBH the only people I know with minidisks have walkmans. MD is smaller than a CD so better for carrying around. At home though everyone uses CDs.

    Obviously I'm not saying everyones like that, but I do know a lot of people so know its a trend round here at least.
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    Actually Blu-Ray won't kill DVD because (yes you guessed it) there is a format war going on for that aswell. When will these companies learn?
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    Never!
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  30. Originally Posted by Cornucopia
    energy80s:
    I generally enjoy your posts and respect your point of view, but you are not remembering recording speeds correctly. I'm standing in front of a rack of decks right now, which include Betamax and VHS. Both have stated speeds of:

    SP (Standard Play)
    LP (Long Play)
    SLP (SuperLong Play) aka EP (Extended Play), sometimes called XP

    VHS tapes of standard length give times as:
    SP=120 min (2 hours)
    LP=240 min (4 hours)
    EP=360 min (6 hours)

    while std Betamax tapes give times as:
    SP ("Beta I")=1+ hour
    LP ("Beta II")=3 hours
    EP ("Beta III")=5 hours

    Lots of factors were involved with Beta's demise, but available tape recording time certainly was one of the main reasons.

    BTW, I've been doing video and audio since the early 80's also.

    Scott
    This must be an American thing. Standard video tape lengths are 3 hours and 4 hours. 2 hour tapes don't exist (well they did but as they cost more than E180's no one other than myself ever bought them!)

    There have only ever been 2 recording speeds on a vcr - standard play and long play - with LP halving the tape speed. Again this EP thing must be a US thing.

    As for the minidisc situation - it is a home recording format that has since found favour in the professional arena. Again maybe MD's didn't take off in the States, I think that standalone CDR's made some headway there. In the UK, standalone CD Recorders are hard to find, and as we've found in the BBC, recorded CDR discs rarely play in any professional CD player - we even had to buy in a load of Marantz players just to cope with CDR's used as backing tracks by some of the bands on TV shows! DAT's are used for recording a programme for transmission and minidiscs are used for music playout - CDR's are few and far between!
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