Beware Meritline

[Savant]

Northstar wrote:

There are many bogus named disks out there, i dont see all those companies running around proving they arent their disks and having full investigations as to who made them.

I disagree. All of these companies have employees (and sometimes entire divisions of employees) assigned to rooting out fake products. Microsoft has an entire legal division assigned to cracking down on fakes in Asia.

So where is all the action by Maxell? If they don't investigate then how do you expect to stop the flow of these fakes? Soon the market could be full of these fakes on a continual basis and people won't know what is real and what isn't.

The reason Maxell isn't worried and isn't investigating is that they MADE the discs. They know there won't be more since they are the ones who made them in the first place.

I think the whole point of this 'discussion' rests on Meritline knowingly changed the name of a product knowing they were 'bad' and carried on selling them under a 'true 2x' name.

Again, who determines what is bad. I have asked this question repeatedly and not you or anyone else has answered me. When some people have had issues with the discs some people haven't, who decides what is 'bad'?

Meritline likely changed the name of the media since the discs were unbranded and there were allegations that the discs may not have been made by Maxell. Now Meritline approached the situation much like I have. They want to see PROOF that these are fakes before accepting them as such. Until then they erred on the side of caution and renamed the discs to avoid anyone complaining that they didn't get what they paid for. By giving the discs a generic name (and not calling them Maxell) you can't say they are fake Maxell since they aren't being SOLD as Maxell. A generic disc is just that, generic. It could be made by anyone and the quality of it might not be as good as a brand name disc. They treated these discs no different than how they treat Princos.

In my honest opinion hrdc69 does feel like he has had a rough ride with Meritline, and rightly so, when he explained his buisness could go under if they dont release his funds (all fake i know) but if that were a true situation then all i can say is 'shame on Meritline'. Im not bashing you savant, but i do err on the side of hrdc69's explination.

Yes hrdc has had a rough ride via Meritline, but that was because of his own mistakes. He obviously didn't read Meritline's terms and conditions of sale. If he did then he should have never ordered from them.

He has suggested he should have received a refund of the shipping fee. Why? Was the product shipped to him in an undamaged condition? Yes. In that case the fee paid for shipping the discs was fair. If he wants to return a product he has to pay for shipping. Shipping to and from an online store is part of doing business online. Did UPS have anything to do with these 'fakes'? No. So why should their shipping fees be called into question here.

As for the 15% restocking fee, again, this is CLEARLY POSTED in their terms and conditions. I'm sorry but I don't accept ignorance as an excuse. If he was at such a risk (for his 'business') then he never should have bought from Meritline or any other company that has similar sale terms.

This really isn't about Meritline since this could have happened with ANY online store, and Meritline wasn't the only store selling the media. Of the dozens of online stores selling DVD media I know of maybe two that will refund shipping on returns and don't charge a restocking fee. They have higher prices though so it balances out.


LanEvo7 wrote:

Then why are they still making these questionable Maxells then? They are obviously still in production somewhere. There are new batches of "Maxell" discs that have recently appeared.

They are likely not a new batch but more of the same that were manufactured at that same time as the others. I'm sure they made more than a few thousand of these when they were first manufactured.

Why should they buy up all the fakes? If every company buys up all the stock everytime a there is a fake, they'd go out of business.

Not at all. Fakes are bad for business. You either go after the fakes with police, or you go after them with your wallet. In cases of fake Nike and such there are actual employees of Nike whose only job is to hunt for Nike and them report the fakes to the police. However, some companies who make cheaper items choose instead to buy the fakes since it actually costs them less than the wages they would pay employees to hunt them down. So long as the end result is the same (the fakes are off the street) then they shouldn't care.

You are just being ignorant. The point you continue to run around on is Maxell didn't prove that they are fake with a full investigative report, etc. There are many points that you choose to ignore pointing out that these Maxells are not authentic. You main explaination of it is because Maxell is trying unload inventory without even the slightest, your favorite word, PROOF.

Keep it civil please. (points to moderator message)

You don't understand, I have the proof on my side. The discs have a Maxell media ID code on them. This media ID coding is embedded onto a stamper which is part of a moulding tool used for disc replication. To fake the media you would have to make a stamper with a fake media code on it. It's not a matter of just changing a few bits, physical stampers were used that had the Maxell media id code on it.

That means it is up to YOU or anyone else to prove they are not what they say they are. Proof is on my side. The discs say Maxell. If you want to dispute this then prove me wrong. I have the facts on my side.

Why is it that people ignore the obvious. For example, did you know that Hitachi (they own Maxell) posted a big first quarter loss this year?

The first quarter results were posted on June 30th of this year.

The note from Maxell that there were 'fake discs' out there was posted on July 4th, just 4 days after the poor financial results were posted. Co-incidence? I don't think so. Gimme a break. These supposed 'fakes' were floating about for months before Maxell spoke up. Why do you think they said nothing when people were making allegations in April? Why? ...because Maxell made the discs and they didn't want to push their losses down further by admitting it.

Even if you do believe the discs are fakes (which I do not) then why did they wait until July 4th to post when they were discovered months prior? Why? To protect their bottom line. The only people they care about are their stockholders.

So this is a bit more 'proof' that Maxell knows more then they are letting on to.

First quarter result: June 30th 2003
Letter about fakes: July 4th 2003

Co-incidence? Be honest here folks.

Regards,

Savant

[BJ_M]

if microsoft has "a division assigned to cracking down on fakes in Asia" , they should all be fired because in every computer store pretty well and certainly every street market vendor selling disks (at least in several of the areas ive been in - not so much now in the main cities, at least not in the open) there are microsoft fake disks being sold .. they got to be aware of it - or all blind ...

maybe things have changed since the last time i was over there , but from what i have heard - they havnt ..

same goes for one or two other countries i'm aware of ..

[Savant]

Perhaps you aren't aware of the work they do, I'm aware since I do software beta testing for MS. Just grab a coffee and then read this page of only SOME of the actions they have undertaken.

Now if Maxell had a page like this with similar information then we wouldn't be having this arguement...

Regards,

Savant

[LanEvo7]

They are likely not a new batch but more of the same that were manufactured at that same time as the others. I'm sure they made more than a few thousand of these when they were first manufactured.

No, these are new batches. The original batches of "Maxell" media were silver topped and they were only 2x. These new batches have a variety of tops and range from 2x to 4x.

Not at all. Fakes are bad for business. You either go after the fakes with police, or you go after them with your wallet. In cases of fake Nike and such there are actual employees of Nike whose only job is to hunt for Nike and them report the fakes to the police. However, some companies who make cheaper items choose instead to buy the fakes since it actually costs them less than the wages they would pay employees to hunt them down. So long as the end result is the same (the fakes are off the street) then they shouldn't care.

Fakes are indeed bad for business. It might not be the best economical solution though to go after them with your own wallet. Then it would be up to the police, but which policed do you report to? Lets not forget nobody knows where these discs originated and Asia is NOT a country. Since most people have accepted, regardless if what you think, that these questionable maxells are not made by Maxell. Just like most people can tell if a Nike sneaker or LV bag is fake without any offical investigative report by the company.

It did not cost Maxell a huge amount of money this time around since those DVD-rs were not in competition against authentic Maxell discs. The people who bought 50 packs probably wouldn't have went to the local Staples and bought 50 authentic maxells if those weren't there. They probably would have bought ritek or another comparible priced oem disc.

You don't understand, I have the proof on my side. The discs have a Maxell media ID code on them. This media ID coding is embedded onto a stamper which is part of a moulding tool used for disc replication. To fake the media you would have to make a stamper with a fake media code on it. It's not a matter of just changing a few bits, physical stampers were used that had the Maxell media id code on it.

That means it is up to YOU or anyone else to prove they are not what they say they are. Proof is on my side. The discs say Maxell. If you want to dispute this then prove me wrong. I have the facts on my side.

The ONLY FACT you have is that the disc stays Maxell. All the proves is the discs MIGHT be made by Maxell. You have NO proof that they did this to get rid of their inventory. Nor do you have proof that they are not investigating this matter. Stating that they had a loss of profits for a certain period does not translate into them unloading low quality discs.

They say they are doing something about it and it seems that it has worked for Meritline and Allmediaoutlet. If you allege that Maxell did this to get in some scheme to cut their losses, you have to prove it. Stating that the discs has a code of Maxell on it does not mean its actually theirs.

Its not exactly hard to make a stamper for id code of the disc if you are determined to. TDK's disc already had this incident happen. Look at the all the fake currency out there. Do you really think it costs tons of money to steal or make a stupid stamper?

You also continue to ignore the fact that if you compare these OEM Maxell discs to authentic maxell discs there are huge differences. The disc construction is much better for authentic ones, the dye color is different and the failure rate is much higher for the OEM Maxells.

Meritline likely changed the name of the media since the discs were unbranded and there were allegations that the discs may not have been made by Maxell. Now Meritline approached the situation much like I have. They want to see PROOF that these are fakes before accepting them as such.

That is your opinion of the situation. How do you know they haven't seen any proof from maxell? Maybe they realized they got scammed by an overnight distributer and didn't want to lose profits? So they simply renamed the discs as True 2x and sold it. After they renamed the disc True 2x they also lowered the price slightly.

They obviously changed the name of the disc because of something Maxell did. If I bought a 50 or 100 pack of Riteks and it just so happens that Ritek made a bad batch this time around( they do make bad batches from time to time). All my previous discs worked great. I complain to Meritline saying these discs aren't riteks, etc. Do you really think that Meritline would go and change the name of the disc from Ritek to something else?

[Savant]

No, these are new batches. The original batches of "Maxell" media were silver topped and they were only 2x. These new batches have a variety of tops and range from 2x to 4x.

So what you're saying is you have some 'spidey-sense' that allows you to determine when a particular item was manufactured? The fact that the media may have different markings has absolutely NO bearing on when it was manufactured. For all we know this media was made BEFORE the other media. To claim that there are 'new' batches out there simply because this media is being sold after the other media was sold is irresponsible and very likely inaccurate.

Fakes are indeed bad for business. It might not be the best economical solution though to go after them with your own wallet. Then it would be up to the police, but which policed do you report to?

If you check the link I posted about Microsoft you'll see they haven't had a problem finding law enforcement agencies in any country that were unwilling to arrest those responsible. The problem is that Maxell seems unwilling to expose the TRUTH about the real origin of these discs, and one has to wonder why.

Lets not forget nobody knows where these discs originated and Asia is NOT a country.

I said Asia since Maxell said Asia. However, Microsoft has had sucess targetting counterfeiters in such countries as: Hong Kong, Malaysia, Philippines, China, Singapore, Taiwan & Thailand. If a company like Microsoft can get cooperation in those countries, there is no reason a company like Maxell can't do the same.

most people have accepted, regardless if what you think, that these questionable maxells are not made by Maxell. Just like most people can tell if a Nike sneaker or LV bag is fake without any offical investigative report by the company.

There is a big difference here though. With a Nike knockoff you can take the legitmate article and compare it to the knockoff side by side.

With Maxell, they have no point of reference. Had Maxell been selling discs in bulk, THEN I would be more likely to believe that these were fakes since a person could compare both bulk 'Maxell' discs and conclusively indicate that one was definately not of the same origin as the other. The fact that Maxell has not sold DVD-R discs in bulk (to the public) actually leads me to believe that they indeed tried to get into bulk sales with this batch of discs. However when people found them to be of poor quality Maxell decided to deny all involvement instead of taking responsibility for it. In this way they can save their reputation (and bottom line) while gullible end users accept their explanation without question.

It did not cost Maxell a huge amount of money this time around since those DVD-rs were not in competition against authentic Maxell discs. The people who bought 50 packs probably wouldn't have went to the local Staples and bought 50 authentic maxells if those weren't there. They probably would have bought ritek or another comparible priced oem disc.

Which is what I have said before. If someone WAS going to choose a bulk brand to counterfeit then they would have chosen a more popular brand like Ritek G04's. It would have been that much easier to pull off and would have been more successful since the media ID code would have been the same as the REAL Riteks and would have been hard to tell apart.

That's why I feel the discs were indeed made by Maxell, and they have been trying to cover up the truth. I have seen nothing to substanciate their claims to make me believe otherwise.

The ONLY FACT you have is that the disc stays Maxell. All the proves is the discs MIGHT be made by Maxell. You have NO proof that they did this to get rid of their inventory. Nor do you have proof that they are not investigating this matter. Stating that they had a loss of profits for a certain period does not translate into them unloading low quality discs.

How about some intellectual honesty here please. Are you HONESTLY telling me that you find NOTHING suspucious in the the fact they announced 'fake discs had been discovered' FOUR DAYS after their parent company posted a huge first quarter loss?!? You really don't expect me to believe that is a coincidence do you?

Com'on, let's have some intellectual honesty around here please...

Regards,

Savant

[BJ_M]

Perhaps you aren't aware of the work they do, I'm aware since I do software beta testing for MS. Just grab a coffee and then read this page of only SOME of the actions they have undertaken.

Now if Maxell had a page like this with similar information then we wouldn't be having this arguement...

Regards,

Savant

1 raid in 2000 in PRC of 2500 disks -- about .0000000001% of the total amount (in a month) ... and that is it in that area .. nothing in mainland china as i mentioned above ...
1 raid in the Philippines also - big whoop .. i guess no ones been there ether recently (prob. got raided because they forgot to pay off the officials) ..

not to impressive a record for a "whole division" .......

yes i do beta testing also -- (doesnt everyone who uses windows a beta tester?) .... still makes me very sceptical on anti-piracy measures in asia .. which are next to nil .. (reports say that 90% ++ of software in asia is illeagal - and lets not just dump on them -- most of it is to expensive for a lot of people to buy any other way)

and that is from personal observation ..


i am not arguing about anything -- i think you are refering to someone else in this thread .. i don't buy maxell disks of any type.

[LanEvo7]

The fact that the media may have different markings has absolutely NO bearing on when it was manufactured. For all we know this media was made BEFORE the other media. To claim that there are 'new' batches out there simply because this media is being sold after the other media was sold is irresponsible and very likely inaccurate.

It doesn't matter when it was manufactured. It only matters when it is distributed. These began to circulate around the internet and ebay AFTER weeks after Maxell announced that there was fake maxell media.

So what you are telling me is Maxell manufactured these discs, sold them to distributors, then tried to cover themselves up, then continued to distribute these discs AFTER they've told the public not to by these discs.

If you check the link I posted about Microsoft you'll see they haven't had a problem finding law enforcement agencies in any country that were unwilling to arrest those responsible. The problem is that Maxell seems unwilling to expose the TRUTH about the real origin of these discs, and one has to wonder why.

So what you are telling me is Microsoft has wiped most of the piracy and has kept it under control? Its not even close to that. The reason they have found more is because its been going on longer and there are more than one pirating ring pirating their software.

There is a big difference here though. With a Nike knockoff you can take the legitmate article and compare it to the knockoff side by side.

With Maxell, they have no point of reference.

You continue to ignore that the differences between authentic Maxell media and these OEM discs. And Maxell doesn't even sell bulk media directly to customers should be a tip off right there.

If there was a pair of sneakers that do not copy any of Nike styles(there are plenty of these btw) but all it had was a Nike trademark on it does it mean that Nike has some sort of scheme running? We can't compare it to any of Nike authentic styles since it doesn't exist.

Which is what I have said before. If someone WAS going to choose a bulk brand to counterfeit then they would have chosen a more popular brand like Ritek G04's.

Maxell is far more popular than Ritek and its know for better quality than Ritek. Many people don't even know what Ritek is. Go to your local Best Buy or Staples, ask the sales if they know what Ritek is, most wouldn't know what you are talking about. Mention Maxell, and they'll tell you where you need to go.

would have been that much easier to pull off and would have been more successful since the media ID code would have been the same as the REAL Riteks and would have been hard to tell apart.

No, bootleggers always look to bootleg better more popular brands not what is easier to copy. Do you see anybody bootlegging Payless sneakers? Its much easier to copy than Nikes and most people won't even know what the difference is.

How about some intellectual honesty here please. Are you HONESTLY telling me that you find NOTHING suspucious in the the fact they announced 'fake discs had been discovered' FOUR DAYS after their parent company posted a huge first quarter loss?!? You really don't expect me to believe that is a coincidence do you?

Its nice that you only announced that Hitachi as the ONLY Japanese chip company that announced a loss. When in fact ALL of the MAJOR chip companies announced losses. On top of that, its only the chip division that announced losses. Its not a suprise that companies are doing bad in a bad enconomy. On top of that Maxell had actually gained profits during this time. So Maxell is going to jeperdize its reputation for such a little profit?

So the only fact that you have is that Maxell's media code was on the discs. Wild allegations of cause and effect do not count as facts.

[Savant]

It doesn't matter when it was manufactured. It only matters when it is distributed.

It matters VERY MUCH when the discs were manufactured. You can make LOADS of discs in one manufacturing session and then (as a distributor) continue to sell the discs. 'New models' of many electronic items are often manufactured a year in advance. The upshot being that they are free to sell them as they choose. If you were a counterfeiter would you continue to sell 'fake' media if you had been 'found out' and people were avoiding it like the plague? There is no profit in that.

That's why it makes no sense that someone would make fake Maxell media. It's too easily spotted since there is no consumer equivalent.

Maxell is far more popular than Ritek and its know for better quality than Ritek. Many people don't even know what Ritek is. Go to your local Best Buy or Staples, ask the sales if they know what Ritek is, most wouldn't know what you are talking about. Mention Maxell, and they'll tell you where you need to go.

This is exacly my point. Where was the supposedly fake Maxell media sold? It wasn't sold in Best Buy or Staples was it? It was sold in the same places that bulk Ritek was sold. That's why it would make more sense to forge Ritek media since they were selling to distributors that dealt with that kind of media. They weren't selling to distributors that serviced the chain stores.

It's for this reason that it would make no sense for a person to counterfeit Maxell media. Had the 'fake' Maxells been duplicates of actual single Maxell (in jewel cases) then I would find Maxell's argument far more convincing.

Its nice that you only announced that Hitachi as the ONLY Japanese chip company that announced a loss. When in fact ALL of the MAJOR chip companies announced losses. On top of that, its only the chip division that announced losses. Its not a suprise that companies are doing bad in a bad enconomy. On top of that Maxell had actually gained profits during this time. So Maxell is going to jeperdize its reputation for such a little profit?

That's the point, they WEREN'T going to put their reputation at risk for profit. That was why they denied making the discs instead of taking responsibilty for it. Read the financials again, Hitachi didn't only post losses in their chip division. "In Digital Media & Consumer Products, segment sales declined 3%", while media sales were healthy, the DIVISION that sells media posted a loss.

You STILL are evading my question though. Do you not find it at all suspect that they posted about these supposed 'fakes' FOUR DAYS after posting their first quarter losses?

So the only fact that you have is that Maxell's media code was on the discs. Wild allegations of cause and effect do not count as facts.

Wild allegations? Hardly. The discs were made with Maxell's media ID code and using a stamper with Maxell's media ID code. Those aren't allegations those are SOLID FACTS, and they are indisputable.

I haven't seen any FACTS from anyone to contradict this. If anything YOU sir are the one posting wild allegations. You allege the discs are fake. You allege that Maxell didn't make them. You allege that Meritline and other distributors knowingly sold the media knowing that it was counterfeit.

How about backing up your arguments with some FACTS insted of rhetoric and conjecture. The latter is becoming tiresome.

Regards,

Savant

[BJ_M]

thread is going nowhere -- take it to PM's

[defense]

@Savant, let me say this. I can see some of what you are saying..but the truth is that you simply don't know enough about media to make the suggestions and speculation you are making. First, as far as the statements made by one of the Maxell reps, it's clear those are very legit. Yes, you can have phony info about anything on the net, but you aren't going to find something like this on the front page of your local newspaper or on the breaking late night news, so where else would you expect to read it? It was an official statement, and call Maxell directly and ask to speak to the name of the issuer of the statement.

If you haven't seen the statement, i'll be glad to post it. Another thing you seem to be unaware of is that Maxell is one of the VERY FEW companies who manufacturer's their own media, and MORE SO, one of the even fewer companies who do NOT allow OUTSOURCING OF ANY OF its MAXELL DVDR media!

This is just ONE reason why Maxell is some of the highest quality media. Maxell is obviously very stringent with the quality of their disks, and that can't be argued if anyone has the least bit of media knowledge.

As far as your continuous statements regarding why "RITEK" disks weren't fabricated...that's pretty simple. First, Ritek disks are very solid. I won't get into why they aren't in the same league with Maxell, but I will say that the reason Maxells media ID was used, and not one of those other companies such as "RITEK" is very simple.

The reason for this is dollar per disk. Take a look at the online sites who sell Maxell, Verbatim and TDK disks. Take a look at their price PER DISK. They must have a nice mark up on those "BRAND" name disks, and I am not fully certain to the cent what it costs for these online sites PER disk for the BRAND disks, but I have a good idea. And regardless of what that number is, it's VERY CLEAR that the reason for phony Maxell and TDK disks are simply "$$$$." Take a look at how much the Ritek disks are going for from these online sites. Look at ANY speed, 1x, 2,x 2.4x, 4x, ..it doesn't matter. Now compare the same type of Ritek at the same speed with a MAXELL OR TDK disk. And you know what you are going to find?

I'll save you the trouble. What you are going to find is the Maxell, and TDK disks are at LEAST TWICE THE PRICE! So basically what i'm saying is..if someone is going to counterfeit something...why not get as much as they can out of it? Let's say you could counterfeit one of two things. $20 bills or $100 bills, which one would you or the counterfeiter choose?

Obviously they would choose the $100 bills. The same is true with the fabricators of the TDK and MAXELL disks. Why would they fabricate a Ritek disk when they'll get much less per disk, then they could if they fabricate "MAXELL" disks which sell for at least twice as much per disk?

And I can assure you that ALL of these ONLINE SITES knew what they were buying. You think the people in marketing are brain dead? Not even close. They know media..that's what they do. When the know MAXELL IS THE ONLY MANUFACTURER OF THEIR MEDIA and it cost them..let's say $1.40 per OFFICIAL MAXELL DISK...and some shady FABRICATORS WITH MASS PRODUCED "PHONY" MAXELL disks come to them and say ...HEY....We will sell you our Maxell disks for .70 a piece...you are only kidding yourself to think these online sites don't know what media they are purchasing.

Meritline absolutely knew what they got and they knew they weren't the ONLY online sites to be selling it..so they could bail themselves out with the "DUHHH...I DIDN'T KNOW" excuse ....if the shit hit the fan like it did.

And you have to keep in mind the vast MAJORITY of people who purchase DVDR media don't have a clue they can't do 1-1 backups of a DVD, let alone know the "REAL ID" Of media. You ask 100 people NOT aware of forums such as this..and who own DVD BURNERS what the manufacturer of their DVD MEDIA IS...and almost all the time they will tell you the name on the top side of the disk. This is another reason these online sites made out good with those PHONY Maxell disks. They knew that many people would just scratch their heads and say..damn..I must of gotten a BAD BATCH OF "MAXELL" disks..oh well..i'll have to chalk that up as a loss..and hope my next batch is better. That's pretty damn sad......even the people who had to go to extremes to get a RMA...that's just a damn shame.

And last but not least..of course major retailers didn't have this phony Maxell media...there's two reasons for that. One, MOST of the Major retailers such as 'BEST BUY' don't carry ANY GENERIC MEDIA. None, zilch, zero....so why would they be carrying Phony Maxell media? And another reason is that Best Buy just like these online sites is very aware of who the distributors are and who they deal with. Most major retailers like Best Buy will ONLY deal with the most repuatable media manufacturer's because they know their reputation is at stake if they don't.

To summarize...Savant...I don't doubt you know beta testing for M$..but you definitely don't have much clue about media. Don't take this the wrong way...but you should stick to your day job for the time being.

[BJ_M]

accually we have found most maxell disks to be only med. quality -- its hit or miss depending on which you get .. some are great , some are not ..

maxell doesnt fab their own media for the most part (just like thier tapes) - see

Here

and

Here

[defense]

@BJ_M ...the people in the first thread were some which purchased the "PHONY" MAXELL disks...that's why their is disparity there. I have not only read, but know from my experience as well as just about every one i've read where a person has used an "OFFICIAL" MAXELL disk...their results have been consistently SUPERIOR.

As far as the second part....I think you misunderstood me...or I worded it wrong...I mean to say that Maxell DOES NOT ALLOW contracting or outsourcing to other media manufacturers to manufactuer their OWN MEDIA. Maxell, however, does manufacturer some other companies media in addition to their own...I happen to have some TDK disks manufactured by MAXELL....and look at the link you posted...names/corps such as "APPLE" have had their disks produced by "MAXELL." What does that say?

Apple isn't gonna allow Crappy Media Manufacturers "CMC" to produce their disks....Maxell is some of the highest quality out there...don't go by the first thread for "unbranded Maxell." Maxell uses the Highest quality dyes and have top notch compatibility and quality with their disks.

[LanEvo7]

It matters VERY MUCH when the discs were manufactured. You can make LOADS of discs in one manufacturing session and then (as a distributor) continue to sell the discs. 'New models' of many electronic items are often manufactured a year in advance. The upshot being that they are free to sell them as they choose. If you were a counterfeiter would you continue to sell 'fake' media if you had been 'found out' and people were avoiding it like the plague? There is no profit in that.

So you are telling me, Maxell manfactured the discs, then tells people not to buy them, continues to distribute the discs, has a lot of profit in it. Then of course their reputation suffers also. Your logic baffles me. Bootleggers on the other hand, will get rid of their inventory anyway they can, even if they've been found out. Because any uncleared inventory is their loss.

This is exacly my point. Where was the supposedly fake Maxell media sold? It wasn't sold in Best Buy or Staples was it? It was sold in the same places that bulk Ritek was sold. That's why it would make more sense to forge Ritek media since they were selling to distributors that dealt with that kind of media. They weren't selling to distributors that serviced the chain stores.
It's for this reason that it would make no sense for a person to counterfeit Maxell media. Had the 'fake' Maxells been duplicates of actual single Maxell (in jewel cases) then I would find Maxell's argument far more convincing.

You are twisting my words. You had stated that Ritek is more popular than Maxell, which is a purely false statement that you will not admit.

These discs were meant to be distributed primarily in Asia where you do not need to order online. They could be sold at their stores, when people come in, what do you think they want, Maxell or Ritek.

You STILL are evading my question though. Do you not find it at
all suspect that they posted about these supposed 'fakes' FOUR DAYS
after posting their first quarter losses?

No, since every other Japanese company is doing bad and fake media has been on a rampant for the last couple months, this could quite well be a coincidence.

Wild allegations? Hardly. The discs were made with Maxell's media
ID code and using a stamper with Maxell's media ID code. Those aren't allegations those are SOLID FACTS, and they are indisputable.

I haven't seen any FACTS from anyone to contradict this. If anything YOU
sir are the one posting wild allegations. You allege the discs are fake. You
allege that Maxell didn't make them. You allege that Meritline and other
distributors knowingly sold the media knowing that it was counterfeit.

That is the ONE AND ONLY FACT you have been running around circles in. It has Maxell's media code printed on it. That is a FACT.

Loss Profits equals Screwing the Customer is NOT a FACT. That is your wild accusations. You have summited no proof what so ever regarding how loss profits and them annoncing that fake media four days after has any connection. Hell, it could have been a week or a month, you would try to link them together to support your conspiracy theory.

I have stated plenty of evidence pointing that these discs aren't made by maxell. You just chose to ignore them.

Take a look at genuine Maxell discs, compare them with these
questionable ones. There is a difference in quality construction, media
dye formula and burning failure rate.

There is has been many past incidences of fake media floating in the
Asian market and this could be just one of them.

Lets take a look at the following:

"Maxell 2x/4x

"Maxell' 2x/4x

"Sony" 2x/4x

"Sony' 2x/4x

Do we see a pattern here? Oh, maybe Sony was running a conspiracy also right? I didn't see Sony post up anything about fake media. Yep, two top Japanese Media Manufacturing companies are running a scam so they could make a MINOR profit.

[BJ_M]

defense - i misunderstood you ... yes , the apple disks (as an example) are some of the finest around , and consistant quality ..

[defense]

defense - i misunderstood you ... yes , the apple disks (as an example) are some of the finest around , and consistant quality ..

I think I just worded it wrong. And yes, Apple are some of the highest quality disks...but there is a reason for that. Apple isn't going to allow inferior production of their disks...so if it isn't Apple producing them..it would be companies like Pioneer or Maxell.

Of course Pioneer isn't manufacturing any DVDR media to my knowledge..but the point is that if they were...they'd be considered top notch. The same with Apple. It could work both ways. Of course it's easier for companies like Sony and Pioneer and Apple to outsource their media. They don't have to pay for labor..or production costs....they simply contract to a quality, reliable company and reap the profits per disk. Wonderful to be a giant like those guys, huh?


It's definitely not gonna be "CMC." Fortunately, there are companies who take pride in their products and make sure they do everything in their power to assure they are the highest of quality. Companies like Maxell and Apple are assuring they keep a solid rep.


If you take a look at all of the "LEGIT" Maxell media posts...EVERY ONE OF THE APPLE "MAXELL" produced posts are all positive. In addition, the majority of the legit "MAXELL" branded official posts are also positive. And i'd be willing to be that the slim number of Official Maxell "negative' posts can be attributed to user error or hardware error or a combination of both. One person said their Maxell disks "deteriorated" after a few months...but they listed their place of purchasing those Maxell disks was some two-bit online site. I wonder what kind of fabrication and DYE that online site used.

And one last things I wanted to mention in this post is that it is VERY EASY to steal a manufacturers media ID. The reason for this is because how many generic media out there have just a 'SILVER' top? Almost all of them. Do Ritek or LD's or Beall's or Ricoh or even "TAIYO YUDEN" disks say the names of those companies ON THE TOP SIDE OF THE DISK?

Nope..they sure don't...my cousin just purchased 100 Taiyo Yuden's....I'm gonna have to sneak some to test. But my point is that the majority of people just have to "believe" they got what they paid for. Fortunately, for amazing sites like this one...people can search and find tools such as DVDINFO which will allow them to know if they have been taken or not.

[BJ_M]

all Ritek's i get (printable) are printed with thier name in the inner circle and laser etched also ...

after using 1000's of them - i swear by them , consistant quality and great compatability ..

i use TAIYO YUDEN cd's ... ever notice they are little thicker than other cd's ? like the older verbatiim datalife cd's that were so good ..

[Savant]

(didn't this thread get locked?)

To summarize...Savant...I don't doubt you know beta testing for M$..but you definitely don't have much clue about media. Don't take this the wrong way...but you should stick to your day job for the time being.

Excuse me but you don't have a clue what I do for a living. I spend at least $1000 on recordable DVDR media a year in the course of my 'job'. What do you spend on DVDR media a year? So how about you keep your childish insults to yourself and stick to the debate at hand please.

As far as your continuous statements regarding why "RITEK" disks weren't fabricated...that's pretty simple. First, Ritek disks are very solid . . . . What you are going to find is the Maxell, and TDK disks are at LEAST TWICE THE PRICE! So basically what i'm saying is..if someone is going to counterfeit something...why not get as much as they can out of it? Let's say you could counterfeit one of two things. $20 bills or $100 bills, which one would you or the counterfeiter choose? Obviously they would choose the $100 bills.

Wrong. You obviously don't know much about counterfeiting. Most currency counterfeiting is done with SMALL values since they are harder to spot. If you are faking currency then you are more likely to get caught with a fake $100 bill since merchants will check $100's. Very few merchants will check 20's since they see them so often. So while each bill won't yeild you as much, the OVERALL outcome is that you end up with better success rate.

That is why they would have been better off to fake Riteks and not Maxells. If they were going to fake Maxells then they should have faked the jewel case versions and sold them to distributors that sold them to stores. That way only 'basic' users would buy the discs and they wouldn't know if it was the disc that was bad or if they screwed up on the burn.

And I can assure you that ALL of these ONLINE SITES knew what they were buying. You think the people in marketing are brain dead? Not even close. They know media..that's what they do. When the know MAXELL IS THE ONLY MANUFACTURER OF THEIR MEDIA and it cost them..let's say $1.40 per OFFICIAL MAXELL DISK...and some shady FABRICATORS WITH MASS PRODUCED "PHONY" MAXELL disks come to them and say ...HEY....We will sell you our Maxell disks for .70 a piece...you are only kidding yourself to think these online sites don't know what media they are purchasing.

Oh please. The whole point is that this is the first time there has ever been Maxell media sold in bulk. Of course the cost will be less than the jewel case Maxell offerings.

If anything your assertation that online sites know what they are buying only validates the fact that the distributors they dealt with were legitimate. Companies like Meritline deal with the SAME distributors on a regular basis. They do that because over time they can get a 'preferred rate' on their large purchases.

As I have said before, you can make all the allegations you like, but the media ID says Maxell. Now if you want to prove that these discs are not what they seem then the onus is on you to do so. My assertation is that Maxell made the discs. Until I see proof to the contrary I have no intention of changing my point of view. If you want to continue to debate this endlessly then that's fine, although I really don't know what that will accomplish.

Regards,

Savant

[flip69]

I have had good luck with Meritline and I have bought Accu's with only very very rare coasters. Meritline now offers many new brands now and I was wondering if there are any better brands for the same money. I use
-R and a sony 500u drive and I do not mind 2X burn speed.

[indolikaa]

I guess it would be asking too much for Maxell to post in this forum and discuss this matter.

[LanEvo7]

I spend at least $1000 on recordable DVDR media a year in the course of my 'job'.

First of all thats not even a lot of money. Assuming you buy the cheapest media that goes for about $0.80 a disc, that is only about 1200 discs per year. I'm primarily a home user and I spent about 3/4 of that amount already.
Second, how does ordering a lot of something suddenly turn you into an expert in the field. There are plenty of people that do inventory and do not have a clue on what they order.

There has been plenty of evidence that has been offered in this thread pointing out that these discs were not made by Maxell. You have choosen to ignore them or dismiss them using frivolous stories about conspiracy inside the company which you have not offered one shread of proof on.

[disturbed1]

I guess it would be asking too much for Maxell to post in this forum and discuss this matter.

Here's the press release


http://www.maxell.co.jp/e/release/20030704.html

[MarcoEsc]

Here's the press release

http://www.maxell.co.jp/e/release/20030704.html

Wow! There you have it. Word straight from Maxell that these discs are FAKES, and that they're pissed about it. And note that the release was dated two months ago.

Seems pretty cut and dried. Meritline sold counterfeit discs, and compounded the problem by calling them Maxells. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they were duped, too.

However, upon learning they had been selling fakes, I would expect a reputable company to contact customers who had been swindled, explain the problem, and offer a replacement. If it's true that they just dropped the "OEM Maxell" claim and continued to sell them under another name, then that's horrible. These fakes should be removed from the market and destroyed, period.

I have no bone to pick with Meritline. I'm neither customer nor competitor. Though I'll admit that I was about to order my first batch of discs from Meritline, and this whole discussion made me go elsewhere.

We have a 7/4 press release from a major manufacturer saying that their media code had been used on counterfeit media. I see no reason for a legit retailer to continue to sell these fakes under ANY name.

Meritline? Any comments?

I'd love to hear that they destroyed the discs and did everyone right. We'd all be well served by another customer-focused company with a good sense of ethics. Suggestions?

[defense]

@ Savant, I tried to break it down to you nicely because you don't know WTF you are talking about. Every comment of yours is FULL SPECULATION..and ignorant at that.

How you got from my post that most would counterfeit lesser values is BEYOND ME. I never said ANYTHING about the difficulty of the two and it was used as an example. I even said if you COULD COUNTERFEIT BOTH..I should of specified for you..BOTH PERFECTLY, then which one would you chose?

The point was that the online sites knew what they were purchasing, because the knew how CHEAP they were getting it. They knew it was PHONY MAXELL, and how bout supporting A FRACTION of your comments?

You can't even understand the basics of "COST" and Profitability....once you can learn the Junior High School basics of that....you'll understand why Maxell AND TDK were chosen as the ID's for FAKES.

Do yourself a favor and stop while your BEHIND. Take a look at
Disturbed's link to the OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE from Maxell.

Oh wait..that's on MAXELL'S OFFICIAL SITE....someone must of HACKED INTO THE SITE MONTHS AGO..AND MAXELL HASN'T NOTICED A PHONY PRESS RELEASE. WAKE UP.....GET REAL.....Your posts are as Phony as that fake Maxell media.

Oh, and if that isn't enough..just read the press article where Maxell explains that they are one of the "WORLD" leaders in DVD Media...so how does that make your comment of people not knowing Maxell DVD media sound? Your right..why would ANYONE want to purchase media from a known HIGH QUALITY MEDIA GIANT like Maxell?


Stop before you make yourself sound worse. Stick to the Beta Testing....if anything related to Windows Beta testing is part of your job..then you suck at your day job too.

[LanEvo7]

I'm pretty sure that most of us can agree that this discs are not by Maxell.

My theory on this whole fiasco:

We have to consider that the manufacturer of these discs were mainly targetting the Asian market. Their main target was never the US since DVD burning isn't really ultra popular yet, and people like buying their discs at the local best buy, etc. In Asia it is more popular to burn dvds and most people(at least not in China or Hong Kong, I can't say for other countries because I haven't been there) do not like to pay huge prices for brand name. They don't mind no-name brands, and these were to be sold on the street, not as mail order.

I don't think these fake disc manufacturers really stole the media code of Maxell or Sony or TDK for the name. I think they stole it because the media code can burn the disc at 2x or 4x regardless of drive/firmware. It would make no sense to steal the media code and then label the differently(i.e. MINI as I posted one ebay auction) or not label them at all if you wanted to forge the discs from that company.

Now if you can accept that the above situation MIGHT be possible continue to read on, if not, stop here.

When these USA retailers like Meritline, All Media Outlet, various Ebay sellers, were offered these 2x discs at a low price, they took a look at it. It looks like regular OEM discs and they ran DVD Info on it, surprise surpirse, it has a media code of a popular big name brand company. Now figuring people like big names at a lowered price, they labelled it Maxell since it did have the maxell media code on it. The same situation happened with TDK and Sony with some people on ebay.

Anyway, seeing as how people in this forum buy bulk from media companies, and also has some knowledge of DVD, they sold it as "Maxell OEM" discs hoping people would see such a low price with such a credible company as Maxell. They were right, people bought large quantities believing that these were Maxells. When people got them, they noticed bad construction and high failure rates when compared to authentic maxells in the stores, they began questioning as this incident did happen before with TDK. One smart guy sends the disc to Maxell for verification, and Maxell states they are fake. News starts to spread and Maxell posts the Warning on their site. Uh Oh, bad news for sellers. To rid themselves of inventory, the various sellers, change the name and lowered the price to get themselves out of hot water.

Now this is only what I think happened. This is PURE SPECULATION by me and only me. So don't go and quote any of this as facts.

[Savant]

defense, I won't be replying to your post. It's rude and insolent, which is why you have been reported to the moderators. If you have to stoop to insults in a debate then you shouldn't debate. That's all I'm saying to you on the matter.

MarcoEsc wrote:

Wow! There you have it. Word straight from Maxell that these discs are FAKES, and that they're pissed about it. And note that the release was dated two months ago.

I've repeatedly mentioned that Maxell did indeed post a statement on it, and if you read my posts I have found it highly suspect since they released that statement FOUR DAYS after their parent company posted a loss, even though the suspected fakes were out for months when they issued that release.

The point is that just because they say something, does it mean that it is automatically true? Are you saying that companies NEVER lie? Com'on, you really don't expect me to believe that do you?

LanEvo7 wrote:

I don't think these fake disc manufacturers really stole the media code of Maxell or Sony or TDK for the name. I think they stole it because the media code can burn the disc at 2x or 4x regardless of drive/firmware. . . . Now if you can accept that the above situation MIGHT be possible continue to read on, if not, stop here.

MIGHT this be the reason? Who knows. Right now it's all speculation. All we know is that the discs say Maxell and Maxell says they didn't make them. So depending on what side of the fence you are on you will lean towards one of the two possible truths.

-If you believe the media code then Maxell is lying.
-If you believe Maxell's statement then the discs are fake

As for why the discs were faked that's not really the big issue here. I think it is more ARE they fake and not WHY they were fakes, since asking why automatically assumes the latter.

If you want to discuss this on a purely hypothetical basis, then sure, it's quite possible they chose Maxell since it tends to burn at 2x on a number of players. So do a pile of other media, including CMC. Why not put out fake CMC media instead? If the fakes were so bad the fake CMC media would have fit right in.

Had Maxell been the ONLY media ID that worked at high speed then your argumemnt would be more compelling. However, most people who are concerned about buring at fast speeds will install a hacked firmware so they can burn on anything.

Possible? Sure. Probable? Meh.

Like I was saying before, I think we should all just agree to disagree and let this thread dir peacefully. I don't see anyone changing their mind on this issue.

Regards,

Savant

[LanEvo7]

Savant, you continue to wallow in ignorance stating that these discs are made by maxell when there is a whole load of information pointing the finger away from Maxell. Dismissing all of the proof as one big conspiracy by Maxell to gain a MINOR profit without any evidience to back it up is absurd.

[Savant]

LanEvo7 wrote:

Dismissing all of the proof as one big conspiracy by Maxell to gain a MINOR profit without any evidience to back it up is absurd.

Proof? What proof? That's the problem here, there IS no proof that conclusively proves Maxell didn't make the discs. In fact there is no 'proof' whatsoever other than a denial statement by Maxell.

One statement from Maxell is NOT proof. It's only WORDS. If you have proof I'd be happy to review it. Right now the only PROOF we have is that there is a Maxell media ID on the discs. THAT dear sir is a 'proof'. If you have something other than simple words from Maxell then I'd be happy to reevaluate my position. Heck, I'd welcome ANYTHING in the proof department. Info on lawsuits against the distributor that sold the media, statements on what law enforcement agencies are involved, ANYTHING solid that beyond a simple "We didn't do it" from Maxell would be welcome.

I haven't ignored any proof since thee hasn't BEEN any proof to ignore.

Anyway, like I said, let's just agree to disagree please. There's no use arguing over this when it is painfully obvious that neither of us has any intention of changing our point of view.

Regards,

Savant

[Lobe]

Savant, why don't you ask Meritline themselves if they were made by Maxell? The answer won't be "yes, they were made by Maxell" they will only dodge the question and NEVER answer it one way or the other. Try it. How's that for customer service? you really think they're Maxell? Even Meritline knows they aren't. Meritline???

[LanEvo7]

Explain all this then:

1) Maxell's Full Page statement on their website stating in full detail about actions being pursued.

2) Compare these questionable Maxells to authentic Maxells. There is a difference in quality of construction, color of the dye, and the media's success rate.

3) If Maxell did distribute the discs, why would they release a statement to tell buyers to be aware of the discs, and then CONTINUE distributing newer batches AFTER they've made that statement public?

4) Why would Maxell put brand their discs with MINI, Cubix and various other brands if they had distributed them?

5) Why did Meritline and other companies change the name of their discs as soon as word spread about fake maxells? Not only that, they LOWERED the price. If they were truely Maxells, they wouldn't need to rename the disc. Just like if you have an issue with Princo, they aren't going to change the name to something else.

6) Look at this:

"Maxell 2x/4x

"Maxell' 2x/4x

"Sony" 2x/4x

"Sony' 2x/4x

So what you are telling me is Sony and Maxell teamed up to make these discs, and distributed them under a different disc name right?

Media code on the discs does not automatically tell where the disc came from. There has been past incidences where Sony's and TDK's codes have been stolen.

Stating the Maxell didn't post up anything about lawsuits, etc, is like saying crime doesn't happen unless its reported. The law enforcement regarding piracy in Asia is very weak. Its not exactly easy to find out who did what.

Regarding Microsoft being able to find it and so should Maxell. Microsoft found close to 0% of the pirates in the country. I'd give them the benifit of the doubt and say 1%. Considering software pirates of Microsoft products were going on for over five years, you can see the law enforcement regarding piracy's view. Pirating of media codes is relatively new and you want someone in jail already.

[Savant]

Explain all this then:
2) Compare these questionable Maxells to authentic Maxells. There is a difference in quality of construction, color of the dye, and the media's success rate.

The comparison is irrelevant since the Maxells you speak of are NOT sold in bulk. You can't compare single jewel case discs with bulk pack disks. Many manufacturers use different methods to make their bulk discs. Maxell could have been experimenting with a new manufacturing method. However, the media ID did say Maxell, which is the main indicator of a disc's origin.

3) If Maxell did distribute the discs, why would they release a statement to tell buyers to be aware of the discs, and then CONTINUE distributing newer batches AFTER they've made that statement public?

Once the discs are made they are no longer 'new'. If they discs are still being distributed that doesn't mean they are still being MADE. It's quote possible Maxell dumped a large volume of discs on the market and they are still being sold.

4) Why would Maxell put brand their discs with MINI, Cubix and various other brands if they had distributed them?

PLENTY of manufacturers make discs with other brand names. CMC makes discs for Verbatim, Longten makes the HQ line, At least 3 different ('legitimate') manufacturers make madia for Sony. It's quite common for one manufacturer to make media for another brand.

5) Why did Meritline and other companies change the name of their discs as soon as word spread about fake maxells? Not only that, they LOWERED the price.

Simple supply and demand. When the rumours about the discs surfaced people didn't buy as much. In a case like this the demand drops along with the price. It's also why some stores could charge above market value for Riteks when they were in short supply.

6) Look at this: [links to eBay auctions where 'questionable' media is being sold] So what you are telling me is Sony and Maxell teamed up to make these discs, and distributed them under a different disc name right?

We covered this already. Many manufacturers make media under different brands. I never suggested any 'teaming up'. Those are your words not mine.

Stating the Maxell didn't post up anything about lawsuits, etc, is like saying crime doesn't happen unless its reported. The law enforcement regarding piracy in Asia is very weak. Its not exactly easy to find out who did what.

As I stated, why did Maxell wait MONTHS to make a statement after finding out about the questionable media? If you were Maxell and 'fakes' were being sold wouldn't you issue a statement immediately? Why wait over 2 months to issue a statement and why wait until AFTER your first quarter losses were posted.?

That seems to be yet another issue you are keen to avoid. Any explanation for why Maxell would hear about 'fakes' in April and not issue a statement until July? If they were such 'obvious' fakes as you claim why not issue a statement right away? Why wait?

1) Maxell's Full Page statement on their website stating in full detail about actions being pursued.

As I said, I accept it as what it is. WORDS. As for whether there is any truth to this statement, that's up for debate. I make a habit of NOT assuming things are true unless there is evidence to support it. Why did Maxell NOT respond to reports of fakes the DAY they were discovered?!? Reports of supposed 'fakes' were made in April but Maxell didn't make a statement until July and even then they only made the statement after their parent company reported huge first quarter losses 4 days prior to that. If they knew these were fake discs, why wait months before making a statement?

Has no one been reading the news lately? Every few months we hear word of how some company screwed up and instead of accepting responsibility they deny it and start shredding the evidence. I find it hard to understand how people can blindly believe whatever a company says when there is no shred of evidence to support it. Do people actually think that companies never LIE?

Cigarettes don't kill...?
Drug companies don't artifically inflate prices by stifling competition?

Com'on folks, wake up please.

I think Staples was mentioned earlier in this thread... Were you aware the FTC fined them $850,000 in May of this year because they LIED to customers? (perish the thought!)

Equifax lied to customers and then when customers called to complain their calls were blocked or they were put on hold for extreme lengths of time. Equifax was fined $250,000 in July.

Citigroup shelled out over 200 million in September 2002 after they were found to by using 'deceptive practices'. (in other words, LYIING to customers)

WorldCom lied.
Enron lied.

Why bother even HAVING a Federal Trade Commission if companies never lie? A company says "I didn't do it"...? Well then, no need for an investigation. If the folks at a large company like WorldCom say they aren't lying then we should believe them right?

Wrong.

You're DAMN right big companies lie. They will lie and lie repeatedly right to your face if it is in their OWN best interest. They consider it the cost of corporate business. If they get caught they pay the fine and write it off as a 'business expense', or they claim bankruptcy and walk away.

Unfortunately big business have big lawyers who provide them with info on how to avoid being caught. So while some big companies get caught, most are free to mislead consumers as they please.

People need to be more cynical. People need to ASK QUESTIONS instead of just blindly believing everything a company says. If you don't then you condemn yourself to being repeatedly ripped off by companies that know they can say and do anything and have you believe it without question.

Regards,

Savant