Beware Meritline

[hrdc69]

This forum is supposed to exist so users can help each other in a variety of ways. Savant is acting in a very irresponsible manner by trying to blow off the entire fake Maxell issue by saying its no-one's fault, as the industry is way too complicated. True he makes the following points about the industry in general which are quite valid.

There are too many variables in the burning equation to place blame on any particular media.

There is no way to really figure out what consitutes a dud.

Who determines the failure rate?

Hacked firmware is the root cause of many burning problems.

He summed it all up by saying "its not as cut and dried as its made out to be". Sorry he is wrong as it IS as cut and dried out as its made to be. Anyone with a lick of common sense and the ability to read the hundreds of posts all over the web about this issue would realize its very cut and dried.

Why Savant would go to such lengths to shift the blame away from Meritline makes me wonder about his motives? It could be he has some sort of relationship with the firm, but whatever his motives he is doing the entire forum a disservice by trying to shift blame from Meritline and heaping the blame on the confused state of the industry.

These fake Maxells were just plain bad with failure rates approaching 100% in my case. From the HUNDREDS of reports on this forum and other forums and the newsgroups, it seems failure rates were at least 75%. I own my own video business with 6 computers and 8 DVD burners. I do not use hacked firmware, and even though all of my computers are fairly new or brand new - I do expect the occasional failure.

From the start I knew these discs were bad, as they failed on every burner I had. The "failures" were different, some would refuse to start recording at all, some would record halfway through and then fail. Others would burn all the way through and then have problems playing back. A few would just lock up the computer, and I would have to unplug everything and reboot to get started again.

I am sure Savant will rush in here and state he used hundreds of the fake Maxells and they all worked for him, and if true he is very lucky. He also tries to shift blame from the fake Maxells by saying many different brands have given problems in the past and uses the Princo discs as a example. Yes many uses had problems with Princo including me, but the Princos were not remeotely as bad as these fake Maxells. These fakes are in a league by themselves, the only other thing that is remotely similiar are the fake TDK's. But even there from what I have read those fake TDK's performed a bit better than the fake Maxells.

My original post was not to re-open the issue of the fake Maxells, as its a well established fact the Maxell fakes were some of the worse discs to ever hit the scene. I find it comical that anyone would even try to still defend them like Savant does, but I am sure he has other motives in doing that .

My complaint is with Meritline, as its completely irresponsible for them to sell the fakes, and then give everyone a hassle about getting a refund and refusing to refund postage fees and charging a 15% restocking fee to boot!! Whats far worse and irresponsible is the fact they continued to sell these discs under another name (true 2x) AFTER they became aware of the fakes and stopped selling them, and were giving refunds on the fakes.

If you know a item is bad, you should not rename it and continue to sell it just to get rid of your inventory. You should either throw them away or send back to your supplier. Even though Meritline did give refunds minus restocking fees, they never answered the Maxell question? They seem to avoid it at all costs. Even when they gave me a refund it was under their general policy of giving a refund to anything they sold minus restocking fees. Even Maxell has addressed the issue saying someone was faking their media, but Meritline has been mum.

Naturally I don't ever expect them to address the issue of them renaming the fakes to "true 2x" and continuing to sell them. I did order a few of the "true 2x's" as the price seemed right and if they worked out I was ready to order more. It was obvious as soon as I opened the "true2x" package that they were the same as the fakes. I even had a few of the fake Maxells around, and they were a perfect match down to the dye and markings. They even had the same failure rate. Since I had only ordered a few of the true 2x's, it wasn't worth my time to call and hassle them for a refund.

In my opinion this matter of renaming the fakes to "true 2x" and continuing to sell them should be a criminal matter and referred to the local district attorney. That probably won't happen, but at the very least this should be a warning to everyone on here about the ethics of Meritline. Lets take this a step further, and assume the owners of Meritline also operate a restaurant or grocery store in Manhattan.

When the power finally came back on after the recent blackout, all restaurants and grocery stores had to throw out their perishable food items as due to the length of the blackout the food had spoiled. I am sure lots of the food still looked and tasted good as the blackout wasn't that long in nature - but legally once a certain amount of hours had gone by the food was required to be thrown out.

If Meritline was operating a restaurant or food store would they have put the bad food back into the freezer and resold it? If the food looked and tasted fresh, then maybe no one would notice it. There is no difference between knowingly reselling bad media and reselling bad food. The only real difference is that the food was good to begin with, not the case with the fake DVD's. Someone could die from eating food that had gone bad, and no one would ever die from a fake DVD not burning, so I would hope no restaurant or food store pulled that stunt.

My point is that Meritline really showed their true colors when they rebadged and continued to sell the fake media. On that basis alone everyone on here should avoid them. I for one would never trust them with anything, even if they offered free name brand media with free shipping. I would refuse that "free" offer as I would figure somewhere in the equation the weasels were going to screw me. True Meritline has been good on ocasions in the past, even though they have poor reseller ratings. Prior to this incident I have had nothing but good experiences with them. History is full of companies that were great, but went downhill fast.

Back to the main question however which is that did Meritline knowingly knowing sell fake Maxell media, or find out about it later after everyone started complaining? Only they know for sure, but their actions after it became widespread knowledge do not look good for them. They refused to admit the issue (and still do). They would only issue a partial refund minus restocking fees, and those refunds were issued under their general policy of giving refunds. They then renamed the media and continued to sell it under another name. To me that sounds like they knew exactly what was going on from the start, but then again thats only my opinion.

There are only a few factories making DVD media around the world, so the supplier and vendor list has to be pretty small. A big player like Meritline should know EVERY vendor. Since they also sell REAL Maxell branded media, they obviously have a connection and account with Maxell - or a direct Maxell supplier. I hardly doubt this fake media came directly from Maxell, probably another vendor so that should have been a warning right there to Meritline. Why didn't they contact Maxell to verify this was indeed Maxell media? With such a small list of players and vendors, it seems hard to believe that Masell could have been taken advantage of - especially since they had the ability to contact Maxell directly.

Meritline has done itself a HUGE publicity disservice by selling this fake media, refusing to directly acknowledge the issue, make people fight for refunds and then charge restocking fees AND then renaming the bad media and continuing to resell it.

What they need to do is come on here and address this issue. Meritline has come on this board in the past under the screen name "Meritline" so they do have the ability to post here . It could be that some low level manager was behind all this, and not the principals of Meritline. Whatever the case, Meritline needs to completely expain this issue, and if someone needs to be fired then so be it. Everyone who returned the media should be also given a refund of the restocking fees and postage both ways. If Meritline cared at all about customer goodwill, they should offer everyone who was taken in by this scam a store credit for their trouble.

The people who were scammed into buying the "true2x" rebadged fake Maxell media shoudl be a special case, as if I were Meritline I would go the "extra mile" for them - even more than the people who just were taken in the original Maxell scam.

Its my opinion that Meritline will never acknowledge the issue, and the only response will be from Meritline shills like Savant or others who will try to shift blame for the issue by saying how complicated the industry is etc.

[Savant]

hrdc69, before I reply let me just mention that personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum. In future I would suggest you attack the words and not the writer. (see forum rules if you have questions on this) Further personal attacks will be reported to forum moderators.

Now, as for your message, I'm not going to bother posting a lot of quotes to spare the readers a long read.

Why Savant would go to such lengths to shift the blame away from Meritline makes me wonder about his motives? It could be he has some sort of relationship with the firm, but whatever his motives he is doing the entire forum a disservice by trying to shift blame from Meritline and heaping the blame on the confused state of the industry.

First off, YOU are indeed the one doing the disservice here by trying to mislead the readers into thinking I have some stake in Meritline. I don't even live in the US, so such accusations are intellectually dishonest. Why you would try and lead people to believe that is beyond me.

Onto the problem:

There was a 'batch' of Maxells that were sold by a NUMBER of stores. (not just Meritline, as noted above) Some people have suggested these were 'fake' discs and somehow Meritline KNEW about their questionable authenticity before they sold them. To that I say 'prove it'.

First off, the origin of the media. Who says they were not made by Maxell? I've seen third hand posts by people who suggest they have 'talked to' Maxell, but I haven't seen ANYTHING that proves the discs were indeed not made by Maxell.

Let's say that reports posted about Maxell denying that they made the discs are true. Let's also say that the PROPER individual at Maxell was contacted and not just a PR representative who would deny ANY allegation that could/would question Maxell's integrity.

OK, given this, could it be that they simply are denying making the media even though they DID made the media? How do we PROVE that they didn't make this media? Without finding a company that DOES admit making this 'Maxell' media, the only evidence that I would accept would be a signed affidavit from a Maxell executive. Until I see proof then these are nothing more than baseless allegations and conjecture.

However, for sake of argument let's assume that the discs are 'fake' as you allege. Putting aside concerns of 'I paid for Maxell and I wanted Maxell', are there any real problems here? Let's assume for a moment that the faulty discs were genuine Maxell and you bought them as such. What next? You still have problems with them and you still returned them. Would the situation be ANY different than it is now? You still would not be happy with the media and you still would have returned them. Right? Does the name on the discs have any impact on the ACTUAL (and NOT perceived) disc quality? Of course not.

OK, let's take this one step further. Let's assume that these discs are 'fake' as you allege, but instead of being inferior quality, they are the best quality EVER. People are burning them and claim they are better than Apple and Pioneer media combined. No failures and they play on absolutely every DVD player known to man. Best disc ever. Given a situation like this, would you care that they were fake or demand a refund once you found out? Heh, yeah I thought not. Is that not hypocritical of someone to only care about the authenticity of a disc if it doesn't work for them?

Next, the failure rate of these discs is in question. While I have heard conflicting reports, I will admit that some people have expressed having problems with these discs. However, how is that different from ANY other media? Back when Princos were new MANY people had problems with them but I've burned hundreds of them with only a handful of coasters. On the other and I recently bought some BeAlls (which most people consider 'quality' media) and *I* had nearly a 100% failure rate. Does this mean that BeAll discs are flawed and fakes? As I said above...

Who DETERMINES the failure rate?
-Using what burner?
-Using what firmware?
-Using hacked firmware?
-Using what athoring software?
-Using what burning software?
-Using what blank media?
-Using what DVD player?

Next, the issue of those outlets that SOLD the Maxell media in question. First off, MERITLINE WAS NOT THE ONLY OUTLET THAT SOLD THIS MEDIA. It's been noted before that other stores sold this media, which means a distributor was selling this media. Who knows who THAT distributor bought the media from? They may have purchased the media from Maxell and Maxell is paying the distributor (in the form of deep discounts on future purchases) to cover it up. Reputation is everything right? Can we PROVE that Maxell didn't make them?

Why Savant would go to such lengths to shift the blame away from Meritline

Why are YOU going to such great lengths to target Meritline ALONE and not all outlets that sold the media. One could easily say that you are unfairly targeting Meritline, and one could also wonder if you might indeed be a Meritline competitor who is trying to damage Meritline's reputation. I have yet to see you criticize any of the other outlets that have sold this media. That does indeed make you suspect in my eyes.

However, for the sake of argument, let's proceed with your complaint against Meritline. You state:

My complaint is with Meritline, as its completely irresponsible for them to sell the fakes, and then give everyone a hassle about getting a refund and refusing to refund postage fees and charging a 15% restocking fee to boot!!

I'm sorry but I have ZERO sympathy for a person if they don't read a store's policy before ordering. As clearly stated in their Return Policy a 15% restocking fee may apply. If you are not willing to accept those terms then you should NOT HAVE ORDERED from them. PERIOD. No ifs ands or buts.

That goes for ANY store. Ignorance is not an excuse. You seem like a smart fellow to me, you should know well enough to check a store's policy before you place an order with them. To do otherwise is irresponsible in my eyes, and you should not blame the store for it. Had Meritline not CLEARLY posted their return policy, THEN I would have sided with you on the 15% restocking fee. However, since it was posted, that's your responsibility.

I've actually returned a batch of DVDs to Meritline before, (the BeAlls I spoke of above) and I found that when I followed the return guidelines I didn't have a problem at all.

You seem to think that they should have pulled the item from the shelf. Why? Yes *YOU* say it was bad, but should they believe you or anyone else for that matter? Can you imagine how many people have probably returned DVD media over the past couple years? I'm sure there have been LOADS.

So are you suggesting that just because a person returns something that any excuse they give for the return should be trusted implicitly? Heh, I don't think so... Did you know that BY US LAW no company has to have a return policy at all? A return policy is done at the discretion of the store owner. The only law there is on return policies is that they have to have a return policy posted prominently. Be it "All sales final' or otherwise.

You say you 'told' them that the discs were 'fake'. Did you offer any proof of this? Do you really expect them to take your word on such a serious allegation? If I was working there I wouldn't take anyone's word on this kind of issue, I would need PROOF.

Back to the main question however which is that did Meritline knowingly knowing sell fake Maxell media, or find out about it later after everyone started complaining? Only they know for sure, but their actions after it became widespread knowledge do not look good for them. They refused to admit the issue (and still do). They would only issue a partial refund minus restocking fees, and those refunds were issued under their general policy of giving refunds. They then renamed the media and continued to sell it under another name. To me that sounds like they knew exactly what was going on from the start, but then again thats{sic} only my opinion.

As I have said, unless you can prove what you allege, Meritline is under no obligation to take your or anyone's 'word' for it. I'm sure they called their distributor and asked about the discs, and they were probably assured that the discs were legit. So the onus is on YOU (on anyone so inclined) to prove that the discs are not what they claim to be.

BTW: You asked why I am siding with Meritline on this? Two reasons. One, I am a customer of Meritline who has ordered thousands of dollars of merchandise with them and have been happy with my dealings with them. I've also worked as a General Manager for a national company that did about 10 million dollars a year in sales. (not in this industry though) I know what it is like dealing with disgruntled customers, and I know how customers will do or say ANYTHING to rip off a company if it is in their own interest. I've heard every lie in the book in regards to people making 'returns'. I'm sure Meritline hears the same lies that I have heard. As such, I don't blame them for being cautious and sticking to their return policy.

However, I also know that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. When I was working as GM there were many times customer complaints were 'escalated' to me. How those people dealt with me DIRECTLY effected how I handled their concerns. If they were discourteous then I wouldn't do them any favours. I would only deal with them to the extent of our policies. People who were polite and flexible received extra consideration.

There are only a few factories making DVD media around the world, so the supplier and vendor list has to be pretty small. A big player like Meritline should know EVERY vendor.

There is a HUGE difference between the manufacturers that actually MAKE the media and the distributors that SELL the media to stores. While there is a limited number of manufacturing plants, there are a HUGE number of distributors and product offerings. The DVD MEDIA list (see link on left) has OVER 300 entries for DVD media alone! (not to mention CD-R media) The list grows daily and manufacturers likely produce new offerings weekly.

Companies like Meritline have been trying to answer the loud call of people who want low cost DVD media in a world where DVD media is still in its infancy and where drive speeds have increased faster than the ability of media to record at those speeds.

All this to satisfy many people whose only use of blank DVDs (by their own admission) are to 'make copies of DVDs they rent or borrow from friends', or to 'burn copies of movies they download off the internet'. If that's not hypocrisy then I don't know what is.

What they need to do is come on here and address this issue.

I disagree. You spoke of common sense earlier, if anything people need to start USING common sense before they purchase DVD media.

To summarize:

-Never assume. Ever. Just because a DVD has a certain name or entry in the DVD info doesn't mean that disc is what it says it is. That applies for ALL media, regardless of the brand. Until we get firms that make their own media exclusively in their own plants then you can never be sure what you are getting. Just because it says 'Verbatim' on the outside doesn't mean you won't get CMC on the inside. This has NOTHING to do with 'fake' media since a company is well within their rights to brand any media they buy. If Verbatim decides to buy from Princo and rebrand the discs, there is nothing wrong with that.

-When you order by mail, shipping is non-refundable. This goes for almost every web based store. Shipping is a SERVICE, if you pay for shipping you pay for that service. If the item is shipped from the store to you then the shipper has kept their end of the deal and should be paid. Expecting a refund of shipping costs from stores that offer items at low mark-up isn't realistic. They can't offer those low prices by giving out shipping credits. You can't have it both ways. Either you accept that they have cheap prices but no shipping credit, or you pay more to buy from a store that will give a shipping credit.

-Don't expect to buy 'gold' at 'paper' prices. If you are buying cheap media, then don't expect miracles from it. While many less expensive media offerings are quite reliable, if you need true reliability you should stick to one of the big name manufacturers that offer guarantees on their media above and beyond that of the store.

-Always buy a SMALL number of discs when you are buying media you haven't used before. Meritline is one of the only stores I know of where you can actualy buy sample packs that are EXPLICITLY DESIGNED for people to test the discs out. That way you pay a small price but get the peace of mind that once you order a larger quantity that the media will perform as you expect it to.

-Read the store's policies BEFORE you make a purchase. This goes for ANY purchase, not just from Meritline. It is irresponsible for a person to ignore store policy and then complain when they have problems. So save yourself the trouble and know the store policy BEFORE you buy.

I'll close here restating my assertion that this isn't as cut as dried as you make it attempt to make it out to be. Should you disagree then that's your opinion, not mine.

Regards,

Savant

[next]

Simply wait for the rebates.

It happened with CDR's

It will happen with DVD's

It's too easy.

The shipping and handling costs of online retailers will preclude them.

It will only get better with local retail outlets.

Wait for the rebates. Even better the instant rebates.

[next]

hrdc69, before I reply let me just mention that personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum. In future I would suggest you attack the words and not the writer. (see forum rules if you have questions on this) Further personal attacks will be reported to forum moderators.

Now, as for your message, I'm not going to bother posting a lot of quotes to spare the readers a long read.

Why Savant would go to such lengths to shift the blame away from Meritline makes me wonder about his motives? It could be he has some sort of relationship with the firm, but whatever his motives he is doing the entire forum a disservice by trying to shift blame from Meritline and heaping the blame on the confused state of the industry.

First off, YOU are indeed the one doing the disservice here by trying to mislead the readers into thinking I have some stake in Meritline. I don't even live in the US, so such accusations are intellectually dishonest. Why you would try and lead people to believe that is beyond me.

Onto the problem:

There was a 'batch' of Maxells that were sold by a NUMBER of stores. (not just Meritline, as noted above) Some people have suggested these were 'fake' discs and somehow Meritline KNEW about their questionable authenticity before they sold them. To that I say 'prove it'.

First off, the origin of the media. Who says they were not made by Maxell? I've seen third hand posts by people who suggest they have 'talked to' Maxell, but I haven't seen ANYTHING that proves the discs were indeed not made by Maxell.

Let's say that reports posted about Maxell denying that they made the discs are true. Let's also say that the PROPER individual at Maxell was contacted and not just a PR representative who would deny ANY allegation that could/would question Maxell's integrity.

OK, given this, could it be that they simply are denying making the media even though they DID made the media? How do we PROVE that they didn't make this media? Without finding a company that DOES admit making this 'Maxell' media, the only evidence that I would accept would be a signed affidavit from a Maxell executive. Until I see proof then these are nothing more than baseless allegations and conjecture.

However, for sake of argument let's assume that the discs are 'fake' as you allege. Putting aside concerns of 'I paid for Maxell and I wanted Maxell', are there any real problems here? Let's assume for a moment that the faulty discs were genuine Maxell and you bought them as such. What next? You still have problems with them and you still returned them. Would the situation be ANY different than it is now? You still would not be happy with the media and you still would have returned them. Right? Does the name on the discs have any impact on the ACTUAL (and NOT perceived) disc quality? Of course not.

OK, let's take this one step further. Let's assume that these discs are 'fake' as you allege, but instead of being inferior quality, they are the best quality EVER. People are burning them and claim they are better than Apple and Pioneer media combined. No failures and they play on absolutely every DVD player known to man. Best disc ever. Given a situation like this, would you care that they were fake or demand a refund once you found out? Heh, yeah I thought not. Is that not hypocritical of someone to only care about the authenticity of a disc if it doesn't work for them?

Next, the failure rate of these discs is in question. While I have heard conflicting reports, I will admit that some people have expressed having problems with these discs. However, how is that different from ANY other media? Back when Princos were new MANY people had problems with them but I've burned hundreds of them with only a handful of coasters. On the other and I recently bought some BeAlls (which most people consider 'quality' media) and *I* had nearly a 100% failure rate. Does this mean that BeAll discs are flawed and fakes? As I said above...

Who DETERMINES the failure rate?
-Using what burner?
-Using what firmware?
-Using hacked firmware?
-Using what athoring software?
-Using what burning software?
-Using what blank media?
-Using what DVD player?

Next, the issue of those outlets that SOLD the Maxell media in question. First off, MERITLINE WAS NOT THE ONLY OUTLET THAT SOLD THIS MEDIA. It's been noted before that other stores sold this media, which means a distributor was selling this media. Who knows who THAT distributor bought the media from? They may have purchased the media from Maxell and Maxell is paying the distributor (in the form of deep discounts on future purchases) to cover it up. Reputation is everything right? Can we PROVE that Maxell didn't make them?

Why Savant would go to such lengths to shift the blame away from Meritline

Why are YOU going to such great lengths to target Meritline ALONE and not all outlets that sold the media. One could easily say that you are unfairly targeting Meritline, and one could also wonder if you might indeed be a Meritline competitor who is trying to damage Meritline's reputation. I have yet to see you criticize any of the other outlets that have sold this media. That does indeed make you suspect in my eyes.

However, for the sake of argument, let's proceed with your complaint against Meritline. You state:

My complaint is with Meritline, as its completely irresponsible for them to sell the fakes, and then give everyone a hassle about getting a refund and refusing to refund postage fees and charging a 15% restocking fee to boot!!

I'm sorry but I have ZERO sympathy for a person if they don't read a store's policy before ordering. As clearly stated in their Return Policy a 15% restocking fee may apply. If you are not willing to accept those terms then you should NOT HAVE ORDERED from them. PERIOD. No ifs ands or buts.

That goes for ANY store. Ignorance is not an excuse. You seem like a smart fellow to me, you should know well enough to check a store's policy before you place an order with them. To do otherwise is irresponsible in my eyes, and you should not blame the store for it. Had Meritline not CLEARLY posted their return policy, THEN I would have sided with you on the 15% restocking fee. However, since it was posted, that's your responsibility.

I've actually returned a batch of DVDs to Meritline before, (the BeAlls I spoke of above) and I found that when I followed the return guidelines I didn't have a problem at all.

You seem to think that they should have pulled the item from the shelf. Why? Yes *YOU* say it was bad, but should they believe you or anyone else for that matter? Can you imagine how many people have probably returned DVD media over the past couple years? I'm sure there have been LOADS.

So are you suggesting that just because a person returns something that any excuse they give for the return should be trusted implicitly? Heh, I don't think so... Did you know that BY US LAW no company has to have a return policy at all? A return policy is done at the discretion of the store owner. The only law there is on return policies is that they have to have a return policy posted prominently. Be it "All sales final' or otherwise.

You say you 'told' them that the discs were 'fake'. Did you offer any proof of this? Do you really expect them to take your word on such a serious allegation? If I was working there I wouldn't take anyone's word on this kind of issue, I would need PROOF.

Back to the main question however which is that did Meritline knowingly knowing sell fake Maxell media, or find out about it later after everyone started complaining? Only they know for sure, but their actions after it became widespread knowledge do not look good for them. They refused to admit the issue (and still do). They would only issue a partial refund minus restocking fees, and those refunds were issued under their general policy of giving refunds. They then renamed the media and continued to sell it under another name. To me that sounds like they knew exactly what was going on from the start, but then again thats{sic} only my opinion.

As I have said, unless you can prove what you allege, Meritline is under no obligation to take your or anyone's 'word' for it. I'm sure they called their distributor and asked about the discs, and they were probably assured that the discs were legit. So the onus is on YOU (on anyone so inclined) to prove that the discs are not what they claim to be.

BTW: You asked why I am siding with Meritline on this? Two reasons. One, I am a customer of Meritline who has ordered thousands of dollars of merchandise with them and have been happy with my dealings with them. I've also worked as a General Manager for a national company that did about 10 million dollars a year in sales. (not in this industry though) I know what it is like dealing with disgruntled customers, and I know how customers will do or say ANYTHING to rip off a company if it is in their own interest. I've heard every lie in the book in regards to people making 'returns'. I'm sure Meritline hears the same lies that I have heard. As such, I don't blame them for being cautious and sticking to their return policy.

However, I also know that you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. When I was working as GM there were many times customer complaints were 'escalated' to me. How those people dealt with me DIRECTLY effected how I handled their concerns. If they were discourteous then I wouldn't do them any favours. I would only deal with them to the extent of our policies. People who were polite and flexible received extra consideration.

There are only a few factories making DVD media around the world, so the supplier and vendor list has to be pretty small. A big player like Meritline should know EVERY vendor.

There is a HUGE difference between the manufacturers that actually MAKE the media and the distributors that SELL the media to stores. While there is a limited number of manufacturing plants, there are a HUGE number of distributors and product offerings. The DVD MEDIA list (see link on left) has OVER 300 entries for DVD media alone! (not to mention CD-R media) The list grows daily and manufacturers likely produce new offerings weekly.

Companies like Meritline have been trying to answer the loud call of people who want low cost DVD media in a world where DVD media is still in its infancy and where drive speeds have increased faster than the ability of media to record at those speeds.

All this to satisfy many people whose only use of blank DVDs (by their own admission) are to 'make copies of DVDs they rent or borrow from friends', or to 'burn copies of movies they download off the internet'. If that's not hypocrisy then I don't know what is.

What they need to do is come on here and address this issue.

I disagree. You spoke of common sense earlier, if anything people need to start USING common sense before they purchase DVD media.

To summarize:

-Never assume. Ever. Just because a DVD has a certain name or entry in the DVD info doesn't mean that disc is what it says it is. That applies for ALL media, regardless of the brand. Until we get firms that make their own media exclusively in their own plants then you can never be sure what you are getting. Just because it says 'Verbatim' on the outside doesn't mean you won't get CMC on the inside. This has NOTHING to do with 'fake' media since a company is well within their rights to brand any media they buy. If Verbatim decides to buy from Princo and rebrand the discs, there is nothing wrong with that.

-When you order by mail, shipping is non-refundable. This goes for almost every web based store. Shipping is a SERVICE, if you pay for shipping you pay for that service. If the item is shipped from the store to you then the shipper has kept their end of the deal and should be paid. Expecting a refund of shipping costs from stores that offer items at low mark-up isn't realistic. They can't offer those low prices by giving out shipping credits. You can't have it both ways. Either you accept that they have cheap prices but no shipping credit, or you pay more to buy from a store that will give a shipping credit.

-Don't expect to buy 'gold' at 'paper' prices. If you are buying cheap media, then don't expect miracles from it. While many less expensive media offerings are quite reliable, if you need true reliability you should stick to one of the big name manufacturers that offer guarantees on their media above and beyond that of the store.

-Always buy a SMALL number of discs when you are buying media you haven't used before. Meritline is one of the only stores I know of where you can actualy buy sample packs that are EXPLICITLY DESIGNED for people to test the discs out. That way you pay a small price but get the peace of mind that once you order a larger quantity that the media will perform as you expect it to.

-Read the store's policies BEFORE you make a purchase. This goes for ANY purchase, not just from Meritline. It is irresponsible for a person to ignore store policy and then complain when they have problems. So save yourself the trouble and know the store policy BEFORE you buy.

I'll close here restating my assertion that this isn't as cut as dried as you make it attempt to make it out to be. Should you disagree then that's your opinion, not mine.

Regards,

Savant

So much work and much appreciated.

But after the new year it will not matter.

Cheap quality disc's will be at the local Walmart.

They get it!

[hrdc69]

Regardless of Savants posts about how complicated the industry is, I think anyone who has eyes and can read knows what the story is. The bottom line is that Meritline has refused to acknowledge the probem and
REBADGED the fake discs and continued to sell them under another name (true2x) No amount of misdirecting by Savant or anyone else can hide that fact.

Savant seems to indicate that Maxell itself may have sold these discs, and says there was never any proof the discs were fake. Thats completely different from what Maxell admitted in a email sent to customers where it warns people of the FAKE discs. The email indicated that the discs were sold by third parties distributors other than Maxell.

To respond to a few of his other points:

" MERITLINE WAS NOT THE ONLY OUTLET THAT SOLD THIS MEDIA. It's been noted before that other stores sold this media, which means a distributor was selling this media"

To the best of my knowledge Meritline and its sister companies were the only ones selling this. For example I never saw Rima.com selling the fakes.

Does the name on the discs have any impact on the ACTUAL (and NOT perceived) disc quality? Of course not.

That has to be the craziest statement I have read on here. Of course the name brand has a direct impact on the perceived disc quality. There are certain companies known to make garbage discs and other companies such as Tayo Yuden that make the best. In between there are a lot of companies in the middle so to speak. Some companies such as FUJI cntract out to different factories, but they are always first quality factories such as TY and Ricoh. Before this latest stink happened, Maxell was known for high quality discs as they never had subcontracted to factories that are known to produce marginal discs.

OK, let's take this one step further. Let's assume that these discs are 'fake' as you allege, but instead of being inferior quality, they are the best quality EVER. People are burning them and claim they are better than Apple and Pioneer media combined. No failures and they play on absolutely every DVD player known to man. Best disc ever. Given a situation like this, would you care that they were fake or demand a refund once you found out? Heh, yeah I thought not. Is that not hypocritical of someone to only care about the authenticity of a disc if it doesn't work for them?

Another crazy statement, as Savant is twisting my words again and insulting the inteligence of everyone on this forum by suggesting people would be unhappy with top quality DVD's. When people bought the fakes which were labeled "unbranded Maxell 2x media" they were relying on the name brand of Maxell to get a top quality disc. If the disc was top quality as people expected, then case closed. Savant does bring up a interesting question by asking what would happen if a knock off or copy was better quality than the original. However that has nothing to do with the case here, as clearly these fakes were not top quality.

Next, the failure rate of these discs is in question. While I have heard conflicting reports, I will admit that some people have expressed having problems with these discs. However, how is that different from ANY other media?

The only person that seems confused by this issue is you. Hundreds of posts all over the web indicate it was a universal problem going far above and beyond problems with other media like the Princos. I had my problems with the Princos, but the media code was not faked on them so there was no obvious attempt at fraud. Besides the failure rate was much lower on the Princos versus the fake Maxells. These discs were just plain bad, no getting around that. Obviously the cheapst materials were used to make them, with no quality control thus ensuring the highest profit to the makers. These fakes should not even be put in the same class as the Princos or any other DVD's made by a legit company.

Next, the issue of those outlets that SOLD the Maxell media in question. First off, MERITLINE WAS NOT THE ONLY OUTLET THAT SOLD THIS MEDIA. It's been noted before that other stores sold this media, which means a distributor was selling this media.

As I stated before, Meritline and its sister companies WERE the only ones I saw selling this media. Its possible other companies were taken in by this scam, but if so they quickly stopped selling it once problems became public knowledge. Still I never saw other companies besides Meritline and its sister companies selling the media. Rima.com is another huge company that sells media, I wonder why they never sold the fakes? It could be that they asked a few hard questions of whatever distributor offered them the deal?

Who knows who THAT distributor bought the media from? They may have purchased the media from Maxell and Maxell is paying the distributor (in the form of deep discounts on future purchases) to cover it up. Reputation is everything right? Can we PROVE that Maxell didn't make them?

Thats the age old question, can you prove a negative? If someone asks
"Have you stopped beating your wife", what can you say? Either answering yes or no still looks bad. Yes, its possible Maxell made the bad media but highly unlikely. Since the media was of such poor quality Maxell would have realized the huge negative publicity that would have resulted, so I hardly think they did it and are covering up unless they have some sort of death wish.

Why are YOU going to such great lengths to target Meritline ALONE and not all outlets that sold the media. One could easily say that you are unfairly targeting Meritline, and one could also wonder if you might indeed be a Meritline competitor who is trying to damage Meritline's reputation. I have yet to see you criticize any of the other outlets that have sold this media. That does indeed make you suspect in my eyes.

As stated earlier, I have yet to see another company other than Meritline and its sister companies that actually sold the fakes. My feelings about Meritline are not because they sold the fakes, as its possible they were scammed by a distributor. That mistake could happen to any company and I certainly would't hold that against Meritline. Its what Meritline did after this scam became public knowledge that gives me problems. Not acknowleding the issue, making people fight for their refunds and then charging restocking fees is not right. For them to then rename the fakes and continue to sell them is downright criminal in my opinion.

The latter point about them renaming the fakes and continuing to sell them is what really makes me see red, and why I take up so much time writing these posts. Its funny but in all of Savants lengthy reply to my posts, the one issue he ignores is the one about Meritline renaming the fakes as "true2x" and continuing to sell them.

As I have said, unless you can prove what you allege, Meritline is under no obligation to take your or anyone's 'word' for it. I'm sure they called their distributor and asked about the discs, and they were probably assured that the discs were legit. So the onus is on YOU (on anyone so inclined) to prove that the discs are not what they claim to be.

Assuming Meritline had no prior knowledge of this scam, you are correct as when the complaints started to come in they had every right to be cautious and not take any particular persons word for things. However after time went by, and hundreds of posts appeared all over the Web about this issue, then it went beyone Meritline taking any one persons word for things. For heavens sakes Maxell even sent out emails alerting people to the fact there were fake Maxell discs with fake Media codes out there. At this point the onus was not on Meritlines customers to prove anything, as it was a accepted fact there were fake Maxell discs out there being sold by Meritline. Meritlines response at that point was to continue to stonewall, and then they renamed the fakes to "true2x" and continued to sell them.

I know how customers will do or say ANYTHING to rip off a company if it is in their own interest. I've heard every lie in the book in regards to people making 'returns'. I'm sure Meritline hears the same lies that I have heard. As such, I don't blame them for being cautious and sticking to their return policy.

Sure lets now blame the customers in all this, even after Maxell has publically acknowledged the problem lets pretend its the lying customers are causing the bad publicity. Since no one will now buy the fake Maxells due to the lying customers, lets just rename the fakes and continue to sell them. Way to go Meritline!!!

All this to satisfy many people whose only use of blank DVDs (by their own admission) are to 'make copies of DVDs they rent or borrow from friends', or to 'burn copies of movies they download off the internet'. If that's not hypocrisy then I don't know what is.

I guess Savant is lumping everyone who buys DVD's in the category of people who copy copyrighted material. By thet logic all of us DVD buyers are criminals, so we deserve getting screwed over by companies selling fake media. Using that logic, everyone who dires a car is a criminal as criminals do use cars to further their illegal actions.

Never assume. Ever. Just because a DVD has a certain name or entry in the DVD info doesn't mean that disc is what it says it is. That applies for ALL media, regardless of the brand. Until we get firms that make their own media exclusively in their own plants then you can never be sure what you are getting. Just because it says 'Verbatim' on the outside doesn't mean you won't get CMC on the inside. This has NOTHING to do with 'fake' media since a company is well within their rights to brand any media they buy. If Verbatim decides to buy from Princo and rebrand the discs, there is nothing wrong with that.

Very good advice, but once again it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Yes a company is well within their rights to brand any media they buy, but not to put a fake brand name on it they did not have the authorization to do. Maxell did not authorize or make these discs, and came out in public and said so. However the main issue here is with Meritline as once this scam became public knowledge and was acknowledged by Maxell itself - Meritline acted in a very deceptive manner and deceived its buyers by renaming the fakes and continuing to sell them.

Lets take this a step further, if it became public knowledge that General Motors had made a defective motor obviously they would recall the motors and put new ones in people cars, or offer them a refund on the car to maintain public goodwill. If GM was following Meritlines method of dealing with such problems, they would refuse to admit the issue and not replace the motors free of charge. They would charge the customers to replace the motors and then continue to sell the motors by renaming them.

If Savant was running GM, he would probably accuse the customers of lying about the problem, and say they are probably using their cars for illegal purposes. Since its a well known fact that cars are used for illegal purposes by some people, lets just stretch that fact and assume everyone is using their cars for illegal purposes. If thats the case, then people deserve getting bad motors since they are criminals. Sure thats a comical stretch, but no more so than when Savant said since everyone uses DVD's to copy copyrighted material then they deserve whatever bad media is out there.

To summ things up, once again this is a very cut and dried issue. The fact there were fake Maxell discs out there with failure rates approaching 100% is a well established fact regardless of how some may want to complicate the issue. My problem is not so much with Meritline selling these in the first place, but by their actions after it became public knowledge. Making people fight for refunds, charging postage and restocking fees was not right.

But far far worse than that was their decision to continue this scam by renaming the fake media and continuing to sell it. Those actions showed they care nothing about their customers, and only view them as suckers. If any other company pulled these stunts, I would be very angry with them too. However other than Meritline and its sister companies, I never saw these fakes offered anywhere else.

[Savant]

To the best of my knowledge Meritline and its sister companies were the only ones selling this. For example I never saw Rima.com selling the fakes.

hrdc69, while you continue to try and perpetuate these mistruths, why not read in this thread ABOVE and note that one user said:

It was not just Meritline that was scammed. I ordered these Maxell’s from allmediaoutlet.

No matter how you slice it, allmediaoutlet has NO connection to Meritline. They are located in different cities. Supermediastore is also not connected to Meritline although in the past they used to buy their stock from Meritline. I even did a search on Google and found some stores still selling these 'unbranded Maxell' media.

This alone shatters much of your entire argument and it even moreso leads me to believe you have ulterior motives in trying to further your own personal agenda which likely involves you having some connection to Meritline competitors. An 'average joe' wouldn't go to such lengths to twist the truth as you have.

Either that or it comes down to you being pissed off because you were forced to play by the rules. They enforced their return policy, you didn't like it. Too bad. Don't buy from ANY store unless you are willing to abide by their store policy.

Does the name on the discs have any impact on the ACTUAL (and NOT perceived) disc quality? Of course not.

That has to be the craziest statement I have read on here. Of course the name brand has a direct impact on the perceived disc quality.

Please READ before you post. Read my statement again and note what I put in bold. My point was NOT about perceived disc quality but ACTUAL disc quality. The name on the outside of the disc has no correlation to the ACTUAL (NOT PERCEIVED) quality of the disc. Just because it does or does not have a certain name on it does NOT mean the disc will be any good. The manufacturing process is what determines the quality of the disc, not the name stamped on it.

Another crazy statement, as Savant is twisting my words again and insulting the intelligence of everyone on this forum by suggesting people would be unhappy with top quality DVD's.

Instead of being evasive, why not answer the question. If Maxell had posted notice that the discs were fake BUT people using them found them to be the best discs ever, WOULD YOU CARE THEY WERE FAKE AND WOULD YOU RETURN THEM? If your answer is no then you are a hypocrite. Most people could care less what the name is on the disc so long as the discs work well.

If you polled the forum and asked people would they care about brand names if the discs they bought worked well you would find the vast majority would NOT care. All they care about is being able to buy cheap media that works well. People would buy a disc called "Crapco" if it performed well.

However after time went by, and hundreds of posts appeared all over the Web about this issue

Did a Google search for "fake Maxell DVDR" and got 6 hits. A search of the forum here yielded only 26 hits, most in this thread. Hmmm, hyperbole anyone?

As I stated before, Meritline and its sister companies WERE the only ones I saw selling this media.

You need to learn to read more. As noted above there is a post in THIS THREAD from someone who bought this media from a non-Meritline company. So stop being intellectually dishonest and accept the truth. This was not an issue of only Meritline selling the media. Any further attempts by you to perpetuate this inaccuracy will only damage your reputation further.

Can we PROVE that Maxell didn't make them?

Yes, its possible Maxell made the bad media but highly unlikely. Since the media was of such poor quality Maxell would have realized the huge negative publicity that would have resulted, so I hardly think they did it and are covering up unless they have some sort of death wish.

Again, I KNOW you are a smart individual so I know you don't really believe that a company wouldn't cover up something if it wasn't in their best interest. You're damn right Maxell could have covered this up. As you even said yourself, the negative publicity would have adversely affected future sales. So it is quite possible that they did indeed make the media and are lying about it to protect themselves. Why? ...because they can get away with it.

The discs have a Maxell ID code and so that is an indication that Maxell had them made. The onus is on YOU or anyone else to prove that the code was faked. Since you are making the allegation then it is up to you to provide evidence to back up your claim.

Let's say you apply for a loan and find out your credit rating has been trashed. You look into it and find out that someone has stolen your identity. So now you call credit card companies and say "Oh, by the way, that wasn't me who spent all that money so stop asking me to pay and delete the record from my credit history." Now AFTER they stop laughing, do you know what they say to you?

PROVE IT.

If you suspect foul play, the onus is on YOU to prove it. That means going to the police and reporting the incident and also swearing an affidavit that can be used to make your case. Your 'word' is not good enough to them, and Maxell's word is not good enough to me.

My belief is that Maxell is denying their role in making this media because of the negative impact it would have on their sales. If a forger was going to make fake discs, why choose the Maxell brand? They aren't realy well known for bulk DVDR. If I was a forger and I wanted to assure a good response to my ruse I would choose an ID code for Ritek G04's since they are much better known and there have been shortages lately. So if I made my fake batch of G04's and sent them to market they would be snapped up and by the time the truth comes out there is no way to trace them back.

Also, we all know that there is a finite number of plants that manufacture this media, and some plants manufacture for many different companies. Do you really think a manufacturer would risk fraud charges by faking an ID code on a disc when a distributor could EASILY make up a name and sell it as such? There are LOADS of names we haven't heard of before DVD media came out, and there is no reason a company couldn't just make up a name to sell the media as. If a forger REALLY wanted people to believe they were Maxell media then they would have went the whole distance and created fake packaging as well.

That didn't happen.

Yuno what *I* think happened? I think this media was indeed made for Maxell as an initial foray into the large scale DVD-R market. While they have been selling DVD-Rs prior to this, they had been sticking to small volume singles in jewel cases. I haven't seen any offerings by Maxell to buy in bulk other than the supposed fakes. They obviously are still trying to break into the bulk DVDR market.

So what I think happened is that Maxell tried to use a cheaper process so that they could produce a cheaper DVDR and compete against the other offerings. A 50-pack that costs 3 times as much as the nearest priced competitor won't do anything for them since they will get no sales.

As such, they likely tried this batch of media with the specific interest to test its performance on the general market. Worst case scenario if the discs bomb out they deny everything and claim that someone 'faked' the ID code.

The statement I read that was supposedly from Maxell says they were going to take action against those who did this. So where is this 'action'? This event happened in June and no word on lawsuits? If was Maxell I would have sued those responsible immediately since it would be the only way to clear the Maxell name.

NOTHING HAS HAPPENED.

For an issue as serious as someone supposedly forging Maxell media codes they have done NOTHING against those who they suggest did it and they have done nothing prove that they didn't make the discs.

Doesn't that seem the least bit suspicious to you? It seems damn suspicious to me.

If you want to call these discs fakes, then I'll need more than some third hand statement that supposedly points the finger elsewhere. The media code is Maxell and it is up to YOU to prove that they are not what they seem.

Show me a copy of a signed affidavit by a senior executive at Maxell where they swear that they were not responsible for the disc. Or show me a statement from a company that does take responsibility for the discs.

Until then there is NO PROOF that these discs are not Maxell discs, and your complaints are baseless.

Regards,

Savant

[LanEvo7]

The name on the outside of the disc has no correlation to the ACTUAL (NOT PERCEIVED) quality of the disc.

Well, if you use that ideology, you are correct. In fact, the name on the outside of anything has no correlation to the quality of the product.

So according to your ideology, if you went out and bought a pair of Nike sneakers, then discovered it was fake, its not the dealers fault. Just because it says Nike doesn't mean the sneakers is good quality. As long as you can't prove that Nike didn't make it, the fault is of the consumers.

[Savant]

Not at all. Your missing my point. This has NOTHING to do with anything being 'fake'.

If you buy a Verbatim DVDR does that automatically mean the disc will be good? They supposedly are a superior media manufacturer but does the simple ACT of placing their name on the disc mean that it is without flaws?

The name on the outside of the disc has no correlation to the ACTUAL (NOT PERCEIVED) quality of the disc.

So it doesn't matter WHO makes a disc, you could have a problem with it. In such a case that means you need to return the product to the store you brought it from. Fake or not a person may buy media that doesn't work for them. The name on the disc will mean nothing if it doesn't work. You'll still end up returning it right?

Names mean nothing after the sale.

Regards,

Savant

[LanEvo7]

It has everything with it being fake. Thats what this post is about, the "fake" maxell media. The reason people pay an extra price is for the name Maxell. Its because they assume its better quality. Just as if you pay for a pair of Nike, you assume its better quality compared to the local no name brand. Does it mean that ALL Nikes are good, no. Now why is this? Because both Nike and Maxell have built a reputation regarding its products to allow it to charge a higher price. People that have tried their products have had good results with them.

Now say some off brand sneaker company takes steals Nike's design and Nike's symbol, then slaps it onto theirs. There are plenty fake Nike sneakers out there and they all "wearable". None of them will break down immediately. So if it works then its ok right? According to you, it doesn't matter if the Nike sneakers were real or not, the person will return it. You have to consider that if the product was authentic, the customer might not have returned it. Nobody buys a product to return it.

[Savant]

No, you are still missing my point. This has NOTHING to do with fakes. This is the first time I have heard such an allegation in regard to DVDR media. As such this is the first time people have returned media under the guise that it was 'fake'. So what about all the other DVDR media that has been returned over the years? It was returned for a REASON right? Was the fact this media was 'genuine' make any difference when it came to the person returning it? Nope. All they knew was that the media didn't work for them and they wanted a refund. It COULD have actually been 'fake', we don't know that right? However the name on the package didn't make the person any more likely to keep the media did it?

You seem to be as hung up on this 'fake' rumour as the other poster is. Ask yourself what evidence there is to prove the media was fake before you jump to conclusions. Maxell is making people look like fools by denying this without offering any evidence to substanciate their claims.

Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Regards,

Savant

[LanEvo7]

This is the first time I have heard such an allegation in regard to DVDR media. As such this is the first time people have returned media under the guise that it was 'fake'.

Well obviously you haven't been reading much. There was fake TDKs floating around a couple mouths ago. They were made by Princo and eventually people found out. Some returned it, others just kept it. The difference is people found out it was by princo because of the telltale white plastic top. This time, nobody knows who made them.

You seem to be as hung up on this 'fake' rumour as the other poster is. Ask yourself what evidence there is to prove the media was fake before you jump to conclusions. Maxell is making people look like fools by denying this without offering any evidence to substanciate their claims.

Rumor? Maxell has confirmed it. Do you want the Discovery Channel to do a story on it before you would believe it.


If you had actually bought a pair of Nike sneakers that you think is fake, because of the quality, the design, whatever, and you mailed it to nike, then they say is fake, do you believe them? What evidence is there to prove that its fake besides Nike saying that its fake?

That is basically what your logic is saying.

[Northstar]

It seems to me to have a lot to do with these disks being fake and sold as disks with a quality name behind them, and then being sold as 'true2x disks after the fact well thats just downright disshonest, and it does make me wonder at the mentality of such companies, do they think you are just going to say to yourself 'ah well i got stung and lost out on $100 or whatever, i'll just leave it at that and not bother getting a refund', surely they know their customers will be complaining and asking for refunds, and then getting themselfs a bad name in the process, why they do it is beyond comprehension.

I look at it this way, if i was buying a brand name and knowing my computer and burner are all in working order, i'd expect them all to pretty much burn flawlessley, but buying a brand you assume is quality and you have 100% failure... well need i say more.

Im sorry hrdc69 does make a compelling argument on the issue here, and im sure if it was you savant you'd be on your soapbox too, as it is you have had no problems so have nothing to shout about.

I too would rant and rave about being taken for a ride by an online company, i have had no experience with Meritline being a brit myself, but if what hrdc69 says is true (and it rings true to me or im an idiot) then im sure you'd be just as upset as hrdc69.

[spiderman2k1]

My friend bought some cheep DVD-R from Meritline and ever time you burned a movie it would crash at the end of the burn. This was the Meritline brand and they sucked> Meritline should not have sold them online they new those DVD-R are bad

[Savant]

LanEvo7 wrote:

Rumor? Maxell has confirmed it.

They 'confirmed' it? heh. and I should believe this because.........?!?

Yeah and we should take the word of the execs at Enron too right? Of course we should believe Exxon when it said that it wasn't responsible for that oil spill too? Yes of course all companies should be believed implicitly because they 'say so' right?

Oh please.

You can't convince me that anyone is that naive.

What evidence is there to prove that its fake besides [a company] saying that its fake?

LOTS. There are certainly ways that the media could be traced back to the plant that made it. Once that is done they can find out who PAID to have the media manufactured. At that point they track down the person who paid for the order.

Of course if Maxell was the one that paid for the order, you won't see them doing any of that since it would only implicate them further.

I've seen nothing but a few comments that have NO NAME attached which suggest these discs are fake. How about a signed affidavit to start. Then I will be far more likely to believe it.

Anything else is conjecture.

Regards,

Savant

[BASDSucks]

Just a quick question, Does this also apply to media purchased at lets say a target or a best buy?

[Nelson37]

The name IS important, regardless of quality. Here's why. If you ordered, and paid for, Maxell media, and then received something that was NOT Maxell media, you have been DEFRAUDED. Now I do not know if this is actually the case or not (the media actually being fake, that is) but when you notify your credit card company of such a FRAUDALENT (use that word often) transaction, you are fully justified in canceling all charges. If the company wants their product back, they must send to you a UPS pickup ticket or similar shipping credit, you the consumer are under NO OBLIGATION to undertake any expense whatsoever to get the product back to the shipper in the case of a FRAUDALENT transaction. Re-stocking fees are NOT applicable in such cases.

The practice of charging the card long before shipping the order is often, though not always, the mark of the shyster, the fraud, the rip-off artist. It is definitely the mark of a cash-poor company. While I understand and sympathize with this problem, it is Meritline's problem, not mine. I for one will UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES order from this company while this policy is in place.

Just for the record, it is my understanding that the term "oriental" is indeed considered offensive by most Asians.

[Savant]

I never suggested that a person shouldn't get what they paid for. My point is that people only care if they get what they pay for should they have a PROBLEM with it. As I said, would anyone have cared if the media was excellent?

However, as for the issue with credit cards the orginal poster did pay by credit crad, but he didn't get a refund from his credit card company. He seems like a smart fellow so I would tend to assume he knew he could charge back purchases. However, what happens when you contact the credit card company? You need to give a REASON for them to change back the transaction. (in other words "because I said so" doesn't count)

If you are going to allege that the media is fake, then you need to PROVE IT. Otherwise they will not charge back the transaction.

Again and again we come back to the same thing. No one has PROVEN that these discs were indeed fake.

Until someone does prove it any arguments based on that premise are flawed.

Regards,

Savant

[hrdc69]

If you had actually bought a pair of Nike sneakers that you think is fake, because of the quality, the design, whatever, and you mailed it to nike, then they say is fake, do you believe them? What evidence is there to prove that its fake besides Nike saying that its fake?

That is basically what your logic is saying.

Yes his logic is ludricious as are the rest of Savants observations. He has to be a bored troll just itching for a fight - any fight. I for one won't even bother replying to his posts any longer as its useless. My main point on here was to bring up how shamefully Meritline has acted in all this, capped off by their policy of renaming the fake media and continuing to sell it. For that reason alone I would never order from them again under any circumstances - and that goes for all of the sister companies of Meritline too.

[Savant]

You can sling all the insults you like, but it doesn't change the facts.

Until you PROVE that the media was fake then your words mean absolutley nothing. So I suggest to you...

Put up or shut up. Put your money where your mouth is. If you can PROVE the discs are fake, then please do so. If not, then stop your whining. It only makes you look foolish.

Regards,

Savant

[pacmania_2001]

Keep it civil people.

Last thing you want is a yellow card next to your name.

[stiltman]

Keep it civil people.

Last thing you want is a yellow card next to your name.

Yep!.....

[AlienDust]

There is one big problem with this argument, and that is that Savant and LanEvo7 are arugeing over two different things. LanEvo7's (and many others) point is that Meritline should incur the costs of a transaction in which the buyer was not sent the product that was advertised and purchased.

Savant is not even commenting on who should incur the costs in such a transaction, because he is saying that what many of you are regarding as given facts, MAY not be facts. This particular fact being that Meritline was selling FAKE Maxells. His point is that Maxell COULD have manufactured discs that were of poor quality and distributed them to be sold in bulk (this would explain why various retailers were selling them, not just meritline and its sister companies..) He is saying that Maxell MAY have lied and said that they did not produce the discs of poor quality, as to not damage there reputation. His reasoning that the discs, IF made by Maxell, were not up to normal standards, is that they MAY have used a different production process, as to enable them to produce a higher quantity of discs at a cheaper rate in order to compete with other bulk manufacturers. If this is this the case, then Meritline was NOT selling FAKE Maxells, and therefore owe the customer nothing. I know that Maxell has "confirmed" that they were fake, but again, Savant's point is that Maxell could be the ones lying.

Now back to LanEvo7's point. IF Meritline knew that the Maxells were fake, they (Meritline) should refund the customer and incur all costs. Savant isn't argueing that Meritline shouldn't incur the costs, he is just saying that if the discs aren't fake, then it isn't their responsibility.

As far as what Savant is saying about consumers not caring about a refund on a FAKE product if it is equal to or superior the product of which it was passed off as: I personally purchased a 100 pack of the so called FAKE Maxells off of Ebay. I have burned about 60 of them at 2x without a coaster. Even if I did have confirmed proof that these discs are indeed FAKE I would not ask for a refund because they are equal to the product that I paid for (real 2x Maxells), and I would consider them as an equal substitute. However if I had PROOF that they were fake, and they were inferior to Maxells, I would then want a refund, because I would not accept them as a substitute.

As far as Meritline selling discs that they know are bad: If they know the discs are bad, as others have said, I believe that it is wrong of them to continue selling the discs (Wether they are fake or not). They should go to their supplier (wether it be Maxell or not) and ask for a refund themselves. If they cannot resolve this matter, they should not pass their loss on to their customers. If I purchased crap discs from a company and the company would not give me a refund (wether or not it was their responsibility) I would not sell them to someone else in order to pass the loss from myself to them.

Just my perspective on this topic.

[BJ_M]

just ordered another 500 riteks from mertiline last week , international shipment ... perfect order from them once again , good communication also ..

i'm sure every company has a few bad experiances , but i'm a little suspicious of the meritline bashing here .... specially from people who only have posted once or in this thread as example .. i may be wrong also .
I just know several people who order from them and have no problem and good fast service. As is the case with several other on-line retailers ...

[LanEvo7]

As far as Meritline selling discs that they know are bad: If they know the discs are bad, as others have said, I believe that it is wrong of them to continue selling the discs (Wether they are fake or not). They should go to their supplier (wether it be Maxell or not) and ask for a refund themselves. If they cannot resolve this matter, they should not pass their loss on to their customers. If I purchased crap discs from a company and the company would not give me a refund (wether or not it was their responsibility) I would not sell them to someone else in order to pass the loss from myself to them.

That was my second point if you had read one of my posts way back. They knew that there was a high failure rate among the discs. I don't think Meritline is all at fault when they sold their discs as Maxell 2x in the beginning, because indeed they could have been mislead also. I think they are all at fault when they renamed "True 2x" to get rid of their inventory. Instead of misleading the customer, regardless of whether the maxells were fake or not, they should have stopped selling them. You stated that you burned 60 out of 100 with no problems. That may not be as high as some other people, but its a 40% failure rate. That is high. If they wanted to rid their inventory of it, they should have posted some sort of disclaimer stating that the discs were originally the "questionable Maxells" or something. Because we all know, True 2x isn't True 2x if it fails 40%-75% of the time burning at 2x. To me, that is false advertising. Meritline doesn't want to admit they are at least somewhat at fault. Every company makes mistakes once it a while and should admit there was a mistake.

There is no third party company that is going to research and prove the Maxells are fake unless Maxell pays them to, because it doesn't affect them. Why would Maxell pay a third party company to test if the discs were real when they have their own labs to do that. Then again if Maxell had paid the company, it wouldn't really be third party, because Maxell could have bribed them to say whatever Maxell wants. There is a consipiracy going on in Maxell, then I guess plenty of companies in the world are doing that too. From Maxell and TDK to Nike and Louis Vuitton. These "authentic" Maxell discs must be some sort of way that Maxell is trying to scam the customer.

[hrdc69]

Until you PROVE that the media was fake then your words mean absolutley nothing. So I suggest to you...

Put up or shut up. Put your money where your mouth is. If you can PROVE the discs are fake, then please do so. If not, then stop your whining. It only makes you look foolish.

Whether or not these discs were fakes is really besides the point. Its a well proven fact these discs were bad with high failure rates far above and beyond anything else out there. My main beef with Meritline is that
besides charging restocking fees for these discs. they turned around and renamed them and continued to sell them. There is no excuse for this.

I would bash any other company that did that, but to the best of my knowledge Meritline is the only one that engaged in this practice of renaming discs and continuing to defraud the end user. As regards to proof the discs were fake, look no further than Maxell who confirmed it.

I don't know what sort of proof would be accectable to someone like Savant who seems to be defending these fake discs and Meritline. Maxell has said there are fakes around, and he says they are probably lying and made the fakes themselves. Savant also accuses consumers of lying and using excuses to come up with reasons for returns. So I guess for Savant, there will never be proof as everyone will be accused of lying.

Last year I bought a $125 Polo shirt at a major retailer. After the first washing it started to almost come apart. I looked at the seams and buttons, compared it to other Polo shirts I had bought and it was obvious it was a cheap knock-off copy. I went back to the retailer and the sales clerk was very snooty saying the shirt couldn't possible have come from that store even though I had the receipt. He suggested I must have got confused and switched a cheap Polo with the real one I had bought.

I next went to the manager, he said he had received a mail from Polo alerting retailers to the fake Polos out there. He then went back to the mens dept with me, and we found a lot of at least 10 more of the same knock-off Polos. He immediately pulled them from the floor, gave me a refund and also gave me a store credit for $125.

I could have had a different outcome of course. I could have been accused of lying and told that it was my abuse that caused the shirt to fall apart. If I pointed out the flaws in the design and workmanship, and even showed them a real Polo to compare - I might have been treated on a lecture about how complicated the clothing industry is and how its possible to get different quality shirts based on different factories. Its not a cut and dried issue I would be told.

If I had somehow known about the Polo memo alerting retailers to fakes, it would have been dismissed by saying Polo was probably lying to cover up a bad production run. I would be given a refund, but minus a restocking fee. The last thing I would notice when leaving the store are the fake shirts being loaded into a truck to be sold in another store where no fuss had been raised about their origin.

[Savant]

AlienDust wrote:

Savant is not even commenting on who should incur the costs in such a transaction, because he is saying that what many of you are regarding as given facts, MAY not be facts. This particular fact being that Meritline was selling FAKE Maxells. His point is that Maxell COULD have manufactured discs that were of poor quality and distributed them to be sold in bulk (this would explain why various retailers were selling them, not just meritline and its sister companies..) He is saying that Maxell MAY have lied and said that they did not produce the discs of poor quality, as to not damage there reputation. His reasoning that the discs, IF made by Maxell, were not up to normal standards, is that they MAY have used a different production process, as to enable them to produce a higher quantity of discs at a cheaper rate in order to compete with other bulk manufacturers. If this is this the case, then Meritline was NOT selling FAKE Maxells, and therefore owe the customer nothing. I know that Maxell has "confirmed" that they were fake, but again, Savant's point is that Maxell could be the ones lying.

I just wanted to say, THANK YOU! Finally, someone has actually shown that they understand the point I am trying to get across. What was even more remarkable that you showed a complete understanding of what I had to say WITHOUT taking sides. Well done.

This is what I have been trying to say all along, and finally I can tell that at least one person understands what I am trying to say.

LanEvo7 wrote:

[Meritline] knew that there was a high failure rate among the discs.

Really? I think that is debatable. As you have seen, the poster above has used this media without incident, that links back to what I said before, just because media does or does not work for a few people does not make it inferior. If it did we would expect that Princos would be off the market by now.

You stated that you burned 60 out of 100 with no problems. That may not be as high as some other people, but its a 40% failure rate.

I believe you have misread his comments. He said:

I personally purchased a 100 pack of the so called FAKE Maxells off of eBay. I have burned about 60 of them at 2x without a coaster.

I take this to mean that he has burned 60 of them and he has 40 blank discs left that he has not burned. In that case it means a 0% failure rate. If he had a 40% failure rate, I think he would be much more critical of the media.

As far as Meritline selling discs that they know are bad . . .

Let me stop you there. This is something I have asked about repeatedly and no one will give me a straight answer.

Who determines what constitutes 'bad' media? Who determines the failure rate and using what criteria?
-Using what burner?
-Using what firmware?
-Using 'hacked' firmware?
-Using what authoring software?
-Using what burning software?
-Using what blank media?
-Using what DVD player?

There are so many variables, which doesn't even take into account there is no industry standard by which DVD-R (or DVD+R) media is supported on set top DVD players.

How many people have to have had problems with a particular media before we consider it 'bad'? 1, 10, 100, 1000...?

There are too many unanswered questions here.

There is no third party company that is going to research and prove the Maxells are fake unless Maxell pays them to, because it doesn't affect them.

It's not up to a third party to prove the discs are fake, it's up to MAXELL to prove the disc are fake. Right now the only proof we have of the origin of the media is the media ID code. That media ID code says Maxell, and if Maxell says that code was faked then the onus is on MAXELL to prove it.


hrdc69 wrote:

Whether or not these discs were fakes is really besides the point. Its a well proven fact these discs were bad with high failure rates far above and beyond anything else out there.

I disagree. It is NOT a "well proven fact" at all. The only thing that has been proven in this thread is that YOU and a couple other people have had problems with the Maxell media (or questionable origin) sold some time ago. Nothing has been proven that these discs had a higher failure rate than any other disc. Princos have a high failure rate for SOME PEOPLE but they are still being sold worldwide. As I said before, who determines the failure rate and using what criteria?

I would bash any other company that did that, but to the best of my knowledge Meritline is the only one that engaged in this practice of renaming discs and continuing to defraud the end user.

Hate to burst your bubble but a search of the internet and eBay will yield you plenty of people/places that are still selling this media. As for 'renaming' discs, when the discs are unbranded you can call then anything you like as long as it doesn't involve a trademark. Calling a disc "True 2x" is not deceptive at all since it does not say a disc was or was not made by any given company. All it says is that the disc is supposed to be able to record at 2x speed. As we have noted in this thread, at least one user HAS successfully recorded on those discs at that speed so I see nothing wrong with the name they used. Had they started calling the discs 'Verbatim' or something like that THEN it would have been a problem.

I next went to the manager, he said he had received a mail from Polo alerting retailers to the fake Polos out there. He then went back to the mens dept with me, and we found a lot of at least 10 more of the same knock-off Polos. He immediately pulled them from the floor, gave me a refund and also gave me a store credit for $125.

That's easy to do when you have a point of reference. Since the shirts are duplicates of product that already exists, it is easy to compare and tell the real from the fake.

Since these were the first batch of bulk discs that have been made by Maxell, there is no point of reference. We have no Maxell bulk discs to compare these to. Yet another reason I find this fishy. People who make fakes normally pick a popular brand to fake. Maxell is anything but a popular brand.

As regards to proof the discs were fake, look no further than Maxell who confirmed it.

I always shake my head when I see comments like this. You are a corporate spin doctors best friend. An end user who is easily sated by a few words that have nothing to back it up. Maxell confirmed NOTHING. All that they said was that they 'allege' the diss are fakes. They have provided NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to back up their claims.

The only thing that Maxell has confirmed is that they are trying to cover up a corporate blunder. Let's look at the FACTS here. Every point below represents a FACT. If you want to dispute the origin of the discs, please use FACTS to support your argument. No conjecture please.

-The discs were made with a media ID code that identified Maxell. As I have stated before, if someone wanted to produce 'fake' discs they would likely have chosen a better known brand like Ritek since it would assure brisk sales. Choosing a name like Maxell is a big risk since most people have never purchased bulk Maxell discs and they would not have bought a large quantity of these discs since they were unproven. Has the supposed 'forgers' wanted to assure brisk sales, they would have chosen an ID code for Ritek G04's and then people would have snapped the discs up en masse. The discs were made with a Maxell media code and to date no one has provided any evidence to prove that the code was faked.

-The distributors sold the discs as Maxell discs. If the distributors didn't sell the discs as Maxell then the retailers likely wouldn't have sold them as Maxell either. Instead they would have called them something generic like 'True 2x' or some other name that was non-indicative of the disc's origin. Since the distributors sold the discs as Maxell, then they likely bought them from a representative who was selling media for Maxell. Distributors usually deal with the manufacturers directly.

-The discs did perform as described for some people. As has been noted, at least one person has had no problem using the discs as they were intended. As such, any suggestions that ALL the discs were bad are false.

-Some people had problems with the discs. Yes I will certainly agree that some people had problems with the discs. The key here is the word SOME. We have no numbers on exactly how many people have had problems, and we have no comparison of the percentage of those who had problems to those who have had problems with other media. To suggest this media was/is worse than all other media we need references to make the comparisons.

-Maxell has supposedly issued a statement that the discs are fake. I say supposedly since the only statement I have seen was in text on the internet. Anyone could have written it. I have not seen a scan of a letter on Maxell letterhead which makes any statement in this regard. While I am willing to concede that Maxell has made a statement, the fact that no one at Maxell was willing to put their name on it does make one reticent to believe the sincerity of such a statement.

I don't know what sort of proof would be acceptable to someone like Savant who seems to be defending these fake discs

I'm not defending the discs at all. I am saying that there is no evidence to support the statement that they are fakes. Show me ONE link to a Maxell website that has a statement from Maxell saying the discs are fake.

You want to convince me? OK, here are some things that would help to convince me that these discs are not what they seem.

-A statement from a Maxell executive, on Maxell letterhead, from Maxell's head office, which states unequivocally that they were not responsible for the media. Alternately a SIGNED statement on a Maxell corporate website would be acceptable.

-Records or copies of letters from Maxell to media distributors that indicates that there was fake Maxell media going around and that they should not sell such media as it is not legitimate. This letter should have been issued BEFORE any statement to the public since Maxell's first responsibility SHOULD have been to prevent the further sale of such media.

-If you wish to implicate any stores in this matter, I would want to see copies of letters from distributors to stores that notified them of the questionable media.

-If Maxell REALLY wanted to clear their name, then they would actually have a company executive swear an affidavit in which they state unconditionally that they were not responsible for the media in question.

-An investigation to be launched by Maxell that would attempt to trace the origin of the media. Once that investigation started the public would be informed and they would be continually informed of their progress. (again, notice on a corporate website would be aceptable)

-Notice that Maxell had found who was responsible for the fakes, and details on who it was and what Maxell was doing to protect their reputation. Usually this would mean a lawsuit against those responsible.

ANY of the above would be welcome, but I have seen NONE of it. I haven't even seen a letter where a Maxell employee actually puts their signature on a paper that says the discs are fake. What are they afraid of? If the discs ARE fake, there is no problem. However if they DID make the discs and someone DID sign a paper stating that they were not fakes then they could be charged with fraud.

Maxell has done surprisingly little when you consider their reputation is on the line. Honestly, don't you find that the least bit suspicious?

Regards,

Savant

[LanEvo7]

That's easy to do when you have a point of reference. Since the shirts are duplicates of product that already exists, it is easy to compare and tell the real from the fake.

You can compare these questionable maxells with the authentic ones. See that little link that says DVD Media? Click on media code and compare all the authentic Maxells MXL RG01....(Maxell, Apple, TDK, etc) with the no name brands(bulk, cubix, etc). There is a MUCH more complaints regarding the questionable Maxell as compared to the authentic ones. This is with all different burners and all different users. Nope, this is just more conspiracy from Maxell right?

Bottom line is a pack of good discs will work with just about every burner out there with a low failure rate. Take any good brand, TDK, Authentic Maxell, Taiyo Yuden, and the extremely popular bulk brand Ritek. You will see that most people are happy with them. You not need a speical burner with a special firmware to burn it correctly. Take a brand like Princo or CMC, some people get ok results with them, others get 40%-100% failure rate.

As I have stated before, if someone wanted to produce 'fake' discs they would likely have chosen a better known brand like Ritek since it would assure brisk sales. Choosing a name like Maxell is a big risk since most people have never purchased bulk Maxell discs and they would not have bought a large quantity of these discs since they were unproven. Has the supposed 'forgers' wanted to assure brisk sales, they would have chosen an ID code for Ritek G04's and then people would have snapped the discs up en masse.

LOL, Ask any of the people here who have burned large variety of DVD media, I'm sure the majority of them will take Maxell over Ritek. Sorry to inform you, but Maxell is a big name and a popular brand in Media. They make discs for TDK, Apple, and a bunch of other companys. There are more people that have used a big name like Maxell since they are in the retail market than a basically OEM disc manufacturer like Ritek. Most people do not buy their media online.

-Records or copies of letters from Maxell to media distributors that indicates that there was fake Maxell media going around and that they should not sell such media as it is not legitimate. This letter should have been issued BEFORE any statement to the public since Maxell's first responsibility SHOULD have been to prevent the further sale of such media.

You act like you should be able to access all of a companies records and files. Why do they need to show you what they have sent out? They did post a quite lengthy text stating there is non-authentic maxell media out there. It says they are talking to the dealers and such. Obviously Meritline and other companies changed the name of the Maxell to True 2x because of something. Must be more conspiracy right?

Maxell has done surprisingly little when you consider their reputation is on the line. Honestly, don't you find that the least bit suspicious?

First of all, how do you know they aren't doing anything behind the scenes? This didn't happen that long ago so don't expect an answer overnight. If you had actually read maxell's lengthy response, it does say they are trying to stamp the discs out. They also notify what to look out for and telling buyers what NOT to buy. If they really did make the discs, why are they doing this?

Secondly, it might not be economical to stamp out all the plants manufacturing the discs. Since most people have accepted that these "bulk" maxells are not from maxell, it might not be in their economic best interest to go and hunt down all the plants making this. Does Nike or Polo go and hunt down every sweatshop that is copying their products? No, because people can accept the fact the something is not authentic if the company says it isn't.

[Savant]

First of all, how do you know they aren't doing anything behind the scenes? This didn't happen that long ago so don't expect an answer overnight. If you had actually read maxell's lengthy response, it does say they are trying to stamp the discs out.

HOW? That's my point. If I was Maxell and I wanted to get fake discs off the market I would buy up (or offer in trade) the remaining 'fake' stocks at any stores to prevent there continued sale. Posting an UNSIGNED message about supposed 'fake' discs seems highly suspect. Why doesn't anyone at Maxell put his or her name on it? What are they afraid of?

I'll tell you what they are afraid of, they are afraid that if the truth is found out that whoever puts their name on a denial will be in hot water.

If they really did make the discs, why are they doing this?

OMG, are you serious? That has to be the most obvious aspect of this debate. They did it to avoid the fallout from making and distributing sub-par discs. Why get burned for making these discs when they can make up a story about 'fakes' and have people like you believe it without question.

Right now I've only seen excuses. Sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone could make up a story like this about supposed 'fake' discs when they screw up in manufacturing. Instead of admitting they made the poor quality discs and getting them off the market Maxell instead sold them to cut their losses and then made up this story about 'fakes'.

If you want to be fatuous then that's your business. If a company like Maxell wants me to believe a story like this, I'll need more than unsigned excuses. Show me PROOF. Show me arrests of counterfeiters. Show me deatils about investigations. Show me ANYTHING.

Until then, I won't be sucked in by a company who is only trying to protect their bottom line.

Regards,

Savant.

[LanEvo7]

OMG, are you serious? That has to be the most obvious aspect of this debate. They did it to avoid the fallout from making and distributing sub-par discs. Why get burned for making these discs when they can make up a story about 'fakes' and have people like you believe it without question

Then why are they still making these questionable Maxells then? They are obviously still in production somewhere. There are new batches of "Maxell" discs that have recently appeared. These were new and have appeared after Maxell made its statement about a month ago. It would make no sense to tell consumers what to look out for and what not to buy, then turn right around and distribute the discs to more dealers.

HOW? That's my point. If I was Maxell and I wanted to get fake discs off the market I would buy up (or offer in trade) the remaining 'fake' stocks at any stores to prevent there continued sale. Posting an UNSIGNED message about supposed 'fake' discs seems highly suspect. Why doesn't anyone at Maxell put his or her name on it? What are they afraid of?

How? How many people do you think actually cares about some fake dvd-rs that are on the market? Do you want a live update every other day like when the US was attacking Iraq? Why should they buy up all the fakes? If every company buys up all the stock everytime a there is a fake, they'd go out of business. Imaging Nike, LV or North Face buying up all the bootlegs they found, is that economical?

If you want to be fatuous then that's your business.

You are just being ignorant. The point you continue to run around on is Maxell didn't prove that they are fake with a full investigative report, etc. There are many points that you choose to ignore pointing out that these Maxells are not authentic. You main explaination of it is because Maxell is trying unload inventory without even the slightest, your favorite word, PROOF.

[Northstar]

There are many bogus named disks out there, i dont see all those companies running around proving they arent their disks and having full investigations as to who made them.

They generaly just say 'we didnt make them' and then its up to you 'the customer' to use a bit common sense.

I think the whole point of this 'discussion' rests on Meritline knowingly changed the name of a product knowing they were 'bad' and carried on selling them under a 'true 2x' name.

You have to ask yourself one vital queston 'why did they change the name?', according to you mr savant they were fine so why bother changing the name, as they were selling pretty well as Maxell and they werent having any problems with customers except for mr hrdc69 and a 'few' other people (so you said).

It dosent make any sense to change the name of a disk with a quality name like Maxell to some crappy name like 'True 2x' and expect to sell more of them under that name.

In my honest opinion hrdc69 does feel like he has had a rough ride with Meritline, and rightly so, when he explained his buisness could go under if they dont release his funds (all fake i know) but if that were a true situation then all i can say is 'shame on Meritline'.

Im not bashing you savant, but i do err on the side of hrdc69's explination.

This is just my opinion on the matter and its not meant to offend you or anyone else for that matter, and in all honesty this thread is going on and on with no real ending in site... even though its an interesting read

So i think everyone here should have a group hug a let bygones be bygones