Formac V.S. ADSTech

[TheConfuzed1]

Aside from Formac's tuner, Which one is better... Formac TVR... or ADSTech Instant DVD for Mac?

Does anyone know of a site that compares them both?

[Falcon500]

Macworld have reviewed both of them just not at the same time....The products you are referring to, capture completely different formats.

http://www.macworld.com/2003/06/reviews/usbinstantdvd

http://www.macworld.com/2003/04/reviews/formacstudiodvtv/

The ADS product will capture Mpeg 1 and Mpeg 2 at the bit rates below.
Video Bit rate:*
* MPEG-1********* .5 Mb/sec ? 5 Mb/sec.
* MPEG-2:******** 1.5 Mb/sec to 6 Mb/sec.

Where the Formac product only captures in the DV format (25Mb/sec). The difference in file size is below (from the ADS site)...

Video Bit Rates of DV and Mpeg 2:
*DV =3.6 MB/Sec.
MPEG-2 *= 4, 5 or 6 Mb/sec.
1 Hour of DV = 13.3 GB
1 Hour of MPEG-2 @ 4 Mb/sec. = 2.0 GB

I guess it comes down to what you want to do with the captured video and how do you want to store it.

[TheConfuzed1]

Macworld have reviewed both of them just not at the same time....The products you are referring to, capture completely different formats.

Here is a quote from another forum, from another user, who owns the Formac encoder:

It records in either DV or Quicktime. Your choice. After you have recorded in your choice, you can export it to mpeg2, QT, or DV. It's designed to open in iMovie (haven't tried it yet). It requires OS X (fine by me). You must use the Formac software -which is Awesome.

I guess it comes down to what you want to do with the captured video and how do you want to store it.

I want to "rip, mix, and burn" custom DVD's to give to family members to use in their home DVD players. I want to be able to convert older tapes to video that can be edited, preferable by iMovie, and put it all together.

Basically, I'm looking for a feature/quality comparison. I want the most bang for my buck.

Thanks for the links. The reviews did give some insight, but not much more than that unfortunately.

[MichaelLAX]

I want to "rip, mix, and burn" custom DVD's to give to family members to use in their home DVD players. I want to be able to convert older tapes to video that can be edited, preferable by iMovie, and put it all together.

I assume that the 2nd sentence describes the functions you refer to in the first sentence.

I have no experience with the Formac box, but much experience with the ADS Instant DVD for Mac. The key is whether or not you will be doing substantial editing of your home videos or just primarily converting them to DVD.

If you are doing substantial editing, or fancy type effects, such as fades, dissolves, etc. then you want a digitizer that will output in DV format such as the Formac box. Then you would use an editing program to achieve your results (Final Cut, maybe iMovie -- I do not use it), and then author a DVD which would first transcode it to MPEG2 and then create and burn the DVD.

In my case, I am transferring my home movie video collection to DVD with minor "trims" from the source tapes (removing unwanted material, but not changing the order).

In this case the ADS box is the way to go. It outputs right to MPEG-2 in realtime (which requires much less HD space than DV) and then includes an "MPEG Cutter" in its PixeDV software (the software that does the digitizing) to perform the trims. You then use their CaptyDVD software to import the MPEG2 files and then author, compile and burn a DVD. There is no 90 min limit as in iDVD (I have sucessfuly created 6+ hour DVDs utilizing MPEG-1 files).

I also use the ADS package to create DVDs from those 12" LaserDiscs in my collection of movies that are not available commercially on DVD (with excellent results).

I also use the CaptyDVD software to create DVDs from MPEG2 files that I transfer out of my ReplayTV of DirecTV programming that I want to archive.

[TheConfuzed1]

One project that I have in mind is that I would like to be able to use the footage from my Sony video camera to create an iMovie. I would like to also be able to add some stuff from VHS cassettes, such as ultrasound video, etc.

Another potential use that I would like is to be able to archive television episodes. I know with the Formac's TV tuner, that would be convenient, but I won't let that interfere too much with my decision as I can just as easily record with a VCR.

These two things are probably what I would use it for most often.

[MichaelLAX]

One project that I have in mind is that I would like to be able to use the footage from my Sony video camera to create an iMovie. I would like to also be able to add some stuff from VHS cassettes, such as ultrasound video, etc.

I am not sure what you mean by "ultrasound video." There was a competitor to Dolby called "Ultra Stereo" for motion picture production. Maybe that is what you mean.

One inexpensive way to achieve this project is to just reshoot the VHS footage onto the Sony from your largest TV screen and feed the audio into your camera directly. Since both are 30 fps there should not be any flicker. Then both content will be in DV and you can use iMovie to edit.

Another potential use that I would like is to be able to archive television episodes. I know with the Formac's TV tuner, that would be convenient, but I won't let that interfere too much with my decision as I can just as easily record with a VCR.

This is my most important use, so I was willing to put a bit more money into this solution. The ADS Instant DVD box easily connects to every output I have thrown at it: DirecTiVo (S-Video), Pioneer LaserDisk player, Stereo HiFi VHS.

As I mentioned earlier, for the easiest "archiving" of TV programming, I purchased the ReplayTV 5060 from Costco recently for $250 (less a Costco rebate of $50) which allows for a S-Video connection directly to my DirecTV RCA receiver (a receiver I have in addition to the TiVo unit). I record all the programming I can "eat." And for those that I want to archive, I have the ReplayTV connected to my Powerbook G4 by ethernet.

I just use the DVArchive software package to move the MPEG-2 files over to the Mac (I record in Medium quality mode; Standard quality is not good enough for me and High quality results in files that are too big to fit on one DVD for 2 hours and I do not see much improvement in High quality over Medium for most movies; maybe sports).

I then use CaptyDVD (which came with my ADS Instant DVD package, but is available for sale by La Cie separately) to author, compile and burn a DVD. More and more, I just leave in the commercials on episodic TV, and just use the chapter points to set the points where the commercials end. This process is much faster than using PixeDV to trim out the commercials first.

In this way, I feel I have the best of both worlds...


__________________________________________________ __
you can tune a piano, but you can't tuna fish!

[djsteve1]

I am not sure what you mean by "ultrasound video." There was a competitor to Dolby called "Ultra Stereo" for motion picture production. Maybe that is what you mean.

I'm pretty sure he means an ultrasound video of a baby in the womb

I can add a few more suggestions for equipment. From what I gather, you want to:

(1) import and edit DV material from a digital camcorder
(2) import and edit analog video content from a VCR, older camcorder, etc.
(3) be able to use video from both sources above in a single project
(4) write the final result to a DVD

Assuming that you already have access to iMovie/iDVD, the only missing piece is an external "DV Bridge". This is a device that has analog video/audio inputs on one side and a digital DV output on the other. It connects to your Mac and appears to iMovie (and other editing software) as a DV camera. There are several on the market, including the Formac. I own another (the Hollywood Dazzle DV, http://www.dazzle.com/products/hw_bridge.html) which has worked well for me but has gotten mixed reviews by others. Another good candidate is the Canopus ADVC-100 http://www.canopus.com/US/products/advc-100/pt_advc-100.asp which is very highly praised for its high quality conversions.

Like MichaelLax mentioned, you will want to import in DV format if you plan to do any editing other than simple "cut and splice", which from what I gather from your description is the case. Although it initially consumes more space on your hard drive, you are free to adjust/add audio, create fades, effects, etc. between all of your footage before committing to MPEG-2 format for DVD. Once you are happy with your results, you can export to iDVD and erase the original DV footage to make room for the next project.

Hope that helps!

[TheConfuzed1]

I am not sure what you mean by "ultrasound video." There was a competitor to Dolby called "Ultra Stereo" for motion picture production. Maybe that is what you mean.

I'm pretty sure he means an ultrasound video of a baby in the womb

Exactly. Sorry that I wasn't specific. I want to put together a DVD project of my two kids that I can give my family. But that is only one such project that I have in mind at the moment. Most of what I will be doing involves archival of TV episodes, converting older videos to DVD, etc.

I can add a few more suggestions for equipment. From what I gather, you want to:

(1) import and edit DV material from a digital camcorder
(2) import and edit analog video content from a VCR, older camcorder, etc.
(3) be able to use video from both sources above in a single project
(4) write the final result to a DVD

Yes.

...Hope that helps!

Yes, it does help. I won't pretend to understand everything about this, as I am new to the arena, but I am eager to learn. I've read some of the reviews of the Dazzle DVBridge and Canopus products, and I think I've narrowed it down to either the ADSTech Instant DVD or the Formac TVR. Basically what I'm wondering is whether or not there is anything that either of them will do that they other will not. I want the most bang for the buck at the highest quality possible. But I do not want to buy more than one device. Thank you.

[Falcon500]

Here's how I see it if it helps....You want to edit in iMovie: iMovie will only edit DV format video. So if you buy the ADS instant DVD that imports in Mpeg 2 (or 1) you then have to convert this to DV to be imported by imovie. As already mentioned before by MichaelLAX instant DVD's software can only handle basic editing so this is a major downfall with what you describe you want to do with your imported video.

The next problem is that the Formac solution imports in DV format ready for editing in imovie only it has no transcoding ability from DV to mpeg 2 (DVD format) via software or hardware. So this is where you would need iDVD and a superdrive. Do you have this already??? If not then you could buy the Pixela CaptyDVD software to do this task....All this will take time to encode ready for DVD where the instand DVD module has the video ready to go....I think your best option is the Formac Solution but this would still depend if you have iDVD to work with imovie...?

[TheConfuzed1]

I have an 867 MGZ Quicksilver G4 that came stock with a superdrive. According to Apple, it shipped with iDVD, but the odd thing is, I don't have it. Maybe it's on the install discs. I'll have to check. I'm not at home at the moment, so I'll have to do that later. I do want to be able to edit the video, but it doesn't necessarily have to be iMovie that does the editing. If the software that comes with the device is at least as good as iMovie, that should be okay. I am aware however, that in the future, iMovie will most likely have better support, so I am weighing that as well. I just want to make sure I make the right decision the first time around. If the other devices are better, than I'm open to that too (Dazzle, Canopus, etc). But I want full DVD quality, resolution, and features. So far, from what I've read, the ADSTech Instant DVD and the Formac TVR are the best choices available. If I am wrong, I am not opposed to being educated. If they turn out to be about the same, then I will probably go with the Formac, as it comes with a tuner.

[WiseWeasel]

I have a Dazzle Hollywood DV Bridge and have not been very happy with it. It managed to fry one of the FireWire ports on my G4 tower, so that it can't be used anymore. The video is rather dark, quality isn't the best. Also, it seems to freeze all my FireWire ports and peripherals from time to time when I leave it plugged in, needing to be unplugged and plugged back in with varying success, and is generally unreliable. I am considering Ebaying my Dazzle and going with a Canopus ADVC 100 DV bridge, available at harmony computers here: http://www.shopharmony.com/default.asp?file1=/secure/products.asp?ItemID=CNP72100 for $269 shipped, the best price I could find. That would be my suggestion, and steer clear of Dazzle products, as their support is abysmal. You will need iMovie and iDVD (or DVD Studio Pro) to do what you want. You can convert the DV to full quality MPEG2 for DVD with iDVD, DVDSP or other encoders, and will probably get better quality than the hardware real-time encoders in the direct to DVD products. The DV is captured at the same resolution as DVDs, and so quality will be very good, however it takes a lot of HD space (like 30GB for a 2 hour movie) to store. If you want to edit the footage, DV is definitely your only realistic option. Go for the Canopus! (I have no relation to them) If you want a TV tuner and can afford a bit extra, the Formac would probably be a good choice as well.

[MichaelLAX]

You can convert the DV to full quality MPEG2 for DVD with iDVD, DVDSP or other encoders, and will probably get better quality than the hardware real-time encoders in the direct to DVD products.

I am curious what you base this comment on (re: "probably" get better quality from DV than real-time MPEG-2 encoding); especially since DV will require time consuming conversion to MPEG-2...

I have no DV experience (other than watching my daughter edit her 1080i HD movie in FCP); my experience is all ADS Instant DVD for Mac.

[WiseWeasel]

I say this because the software ones can spend the time to get optimal compression/quality, whereas real-time hardware ones will make sacrifices in optimization in order to compress the video in real-time. DV capturing is not processor intensive, since the compression is minimal, however it is very bandwidth intensive for that reason. As long as you have a good hard drive to capture to, full quality DV should not be a problem. Software encoders are always better, though they do take more time, unless you have a very powerful processor, moreso than the one in the capture device, believe you me. For example, the quality/compression of the set-top DVD recorders are much worse than what you can get capturing DV and converting to MPEG2 on the computer. The Instant DVD products sacrifice optimal quality and filesize for real-time encoding. Also, since he mentioned he wanted to do some editing, the DV solutions are best for him. If you want convenience, don't need to edit, and don't care too much about cramming the most video possible on a DVD at the best quality possible, then the MPEG2 capture devices are what you'd want.

[MichaelLAX]

I say this because the software ones can spend the time to get optimal compression/quality, whereas real-time hardware ones will make sacrifices in optimization in order to compress the video in real-time... If you want convenience, don't need to edit, and don't care too much about cramming the most video possible on a DVD at the best quality possible, then the MPEG2 capture devices are what you'd want.

Interesting point...

We both understand that on the editing point, DV is the only way to go (although the ADS product comes with software that does GOP "trimming" which for many of us is all the editing that is needed -- cutting out commercials).

I am not sure if your point about the quality of DV vs. realtime MPEG-2 is correct at the consumer level. Firstly, the ADS product contains its own processor, whose sole purpose is to optimize the creation of MPEG-2.

Secondly, its software contains many "non-default" settings to tweak how the digitization is to be done. Unfortunately, most of these settings are not described in the manual, leaving it to trial and error to figure out how to best use these settings.

For example, with some of my 20+ year old VHS tapes, recorded at LP, I have needed to tweak these settings to keep the digitization from breaking down into unacceptable artifacts.

There are also settings, which are described in the manual, which help optimize quality vs. file size, so that indeed you can optimize how much content will fit on a DVD with the best quality.

While in theory, your point about DV creation and then software transcoding to MPEG-2, will create the best possible quality (and, of course, is probably what is done on the professional level), my point is that until we see a side by side comparision, the extra time required by DV/transcoding may not be justified by the perceived increase in quality.

[WiseWeasel]

The problem is that the MPEG2 capture devices will always be limited by the fact that they must do their task in real-time, where the software running on the computer can take all the time it needs to get optimal quality/compression. Also, the dedicated processors in the Instant DVD products are not as powerful as the CPU of a modern computer, no matter how specialized it is for the task. New top-of-the-line Macs will also encode in real-time, and will have better compression. The one included in iDVD is not the best, and can only fit 1.5 hours/DVD in the only compression setting it allows, but the QT MPEG2 encoder shipped with DVD Studio Pro, or even the free mpeg2enc will give much better results. With mpeg2enc, you can easily fit about 2.5 - 3 hours of video in excellent, unpixelated full resolution quality on a single DVD-R, along with the accompanying 192 kbit stereo AC3 soundtrack. If you are concerned about quality and compression, the hardware products can't hold a candle to the software options.

[MichaelLAX]

Weeze:

I think you are confusing two issues here: digitization and transcoding.

There is no doubt that if you are starting with digital programming as your source material (such as the DV output from a Digital Camcorder), that using software to transcode the material to MPEG-2 for use in a DVD is to be prefered.

But the original question posed here is the digitization of original analog source material.

By its very nature, at least at the consumer level, digitization will always be a "realtime" process, no matter what the output: DV or MPEG-2. And given the fact that the original source material is analog "older tapes," the lack of quality of the original will be continue to be present in the digital form, no matter which format is chosen.

So practically speaking, whatever additional visual quality can be achieved in software vs. hardware will probably be lost on Confused's project anyway. In such case convenience of realtime MPEG-2 digitization becomes a prime factor.

That being said, if he wants traditional editing and the ability to continue to use iMovie, his only choice at this time is digitization to DV.

If he is willing to accept GOP trimming and utilize Pixela's MPEG Cutter in the PixeDV software, then the ADS Instant DVD for Mac has tremendous time advantages.

After all this is a "family project."

[TheConfuzed1]

Oh my, look what I've started here. I honestly am not looking for anything super elaborate. I mostly just want to crop clips and maybe put them in whatever order I want with some possible transitions between them. This is what I would be using iMovie for.

One thing is for sure though... The Dazzle is definitely out. I'll probably read a few more reviews. If I can't find any real advantage of the ADS unit over the Formac, I'll probably go with the Formac.

[MichaelLAX]

I mostly just want to crop clips and maybe put them in whatever order I want with some possible transitions between them. This is what I would be using iMovie for.

In this case you will need DV source files and the ADS USB Instant DVD for Mac is out...

[rumplestiltskin]

"top of the line Macs" will -not- encode in real-time; try 6-8 hours per hour of footage for mpeg2 (2.5Mbps). I own a Mac and have attempted the transcoding. I guess you might get a better quality though, if you have the time to wait.

As far as the processors in the Instant DVD box being "not as powerful as the CPU of a modern computer", show me one CPU that will encode mpeg2 in real-time. Just ain't gonna happen without handing off the chore to a dedicated encoder chip (just like the one in the Instant DVD box).

I'm not trying to start a flame here, ('') really!; just setting the record straight. As much as I love my Mac, I use a cheesy PIII/466 to capture analog with the Instant DVD box (the $90 unit from Tiger Direct) and have experienced great results. I can use the Compaq for the grunt hog it is and keep my Mac working on more productive projects.

Ciao!

The problem is that the MPEG2 capture devices will always be limited by the fact that they must do their task in real-time, where the software running on the computer can take all the time it needs to get optimal quality/compression. Also, the dedicated processors in the Instant DVD products are not as powerful as the CPU of a modern computer, no matter how specialized it is for the task. New top-of-the-line Macs will also encode in real-time, and will have better compression. The one included in iDVD is not the best, and can only fit 1.5 hours/DVD in the only compression setting it allows, but the QT MPEG2 encoder shipped with DVD Studio Pro, or even the free mpeg2enc will give much better results. With mpeg2enc, you can easily fit about 2.5 - 3 hours of video in excellent, unpixelated full resolution quality on a single DVD-R, along with the accompanying 192 kbit stereo AC3 soundtrack. If you are concerned about quality and compression, the hardware products can't hold a candle to the software options.

[WiseWeasel]

MichealLAX: No, I haven't confused capping and transcoding. The instant dvd products do both at once, whereas the dv capping devices do dv capturing, which is not cpu intensive, and gets great quality if it is a good quality device, and your HD is fast enough to keep up. The MPEG 2 encoding compresses the source material, and there is some quality lost in that step. Less of that quality is lost if you do that on the computer w/ a good software encoder.
rumplestiltskin: My lowly 466 MHz G4 mac with 640 MB RAM compresses DV to MPEG 2 using the QT MPEG 2 encoder shipped with DVD Studio Pro (Altivec enabled) in about 2x playrate, as in 2 hours to encode 1 hour of footage at 3 Mbps. I'm sure a dual 1.4 GHz one can do it in real-time or faster. You must be using mpeg2enc or something to encode, which isn't altivec enabled, but does give better compression for a given quality. But the nice thing about doing it on a computer is that you have the choice of encoder and settings to use. One man's 'great results' are another's 'barely acceptable', i suppose, YMMV (that's taking into consideration the compression as well as the picture quality).

[MichaelLAX]

Oh my, look what I've started here.

I think all that needs to be said about the subject has been said; maybe even twice!

I will now click off of this topic and move on... Best of luck, Confused.

[rumplestiltskin]

I think when you drop the bitrate to SVCD mode (which is evidently not what you were talking about - sorry) of 2.5MBps, the compression necessary for this zooms the rate up. I had also forgotten about the DVDSP QT encoder but, again, I had in mind the "complete" split-encode-multiplex process for SVCD "ready-to-image". As you say, YMMV (and I say, IMHO *grin*). Bottom line is that we have these choices and trade-offs...which is a lot better than not having them, eh?

Just to give you an idea of the interconnectivity/interoperability of all this "stuff"...I do my editing in iMovie (soon switching to FCE) and, when I'm done, I connect my Mac to my DV-Camcorder, then connect the analog cable from the camcorder to the Instant DVD box which is connected to my PC. I play my movie through this rat's nest of cables and capture the finished movie as mpeg2 for SVCD in real time.

Take care,
Barry

MichealLAX: No, I haven't confused capping and transcoding. The instant dvd products do both at once, whereas the dv capping devices do dv capturing, which is not cpu intensive, and gets great quality if it is a good quality device, and your HD is fast enough to keep up. The MPEG 2 encoding compresses the source material, and there is some quality lost in that step. Less of that quality is lost if you do that on the computer w/ a good software encoder.
rumplestiltskin: My lowly 466 MHz G4 mac with 640 MB RAM compresses DV to MPEG 2 using the QT MPEG 2 encoder shipped with DVD Studio Pro (Altivec enabled) in about 2x playrate, as in 2 hours to encode 1 hour of footage at 3 Mbps. I'm sure a dual 1.4 GHz one can do it in real-time or faster. You must be using mpeg2enc or something to encode, which isn't altivec enabled, but does give better compression for a given quality. But the nice thing about doing it on a computer is that you have the choice of encoder and settings to use. One man's 'great results' are another's 'barely acceptable', i suppose, YMMV (that's taking into consideration the compression as well as the picture quality).

[TheConfuzed1]

Oh my, look what I've started here.

I think all that needs to be said about the subject has been said; maybe even twice!

I will now click off of this topic and move on... Best of luck, Confused.

Thanks. From what I've read here, it seems that the Formac unit is the best one for the job. Thanks again. I was going to buy the ADSTech unit, and I am glad that I was able to get the information that I needed here.

[TheConfuzed1]

My order has been placed. The Formac will be here Friday. Thanks again for your help!

[lastjedimaster]

Ive had a formac tv/dv for the last couple of years and I dont think you wll be disapointed. It does every thing and more with all the connnections avalible both video and audio there isnt much you cant plugin in to it.

Being DV is the reason I got it cause you can always lower the quality of the source, but if you use a realtime MPEG box you can never incresese the quality.

In the past Ive not been happy with Formac the company as their service was very poor and software was just plain shit. But of recent they have inproved a lot and the new tvr 3 software is not bad. You can cut and edit your dv diffectly from the software although limited and can export out using quicktime codex or Devideon MPEG compresser.
Formac customer service has also improverd with recent firmware updates for older boxes to be compatible with the new software, in the past they would have just said to bad buy a new one.

You are not just limited to the formac software either as it is a dv source you can use lots of different software, where as the MPEG boxes are limited by the hardware.
You can capture the source directly into fcp as its a firewire connection which makes it a pro sollution rather than a tech toy. Obviously once in fcp you can do anything you want with it. You can also play it back out to tape so to record your new edited movie something you cant do with the MPEG boxes. I have a SVHS video recorder so quality is still good and this means I can creat a bit more space on my hard drive if needed by archiving it back to tape.

In conclusion its been a worth while purchase and something that I could not do with out,

[kkant]

Being DV is the reason I got it cause you can always lower the quality of the source, but if you use a realtime MPEG box you can never incresese the quality.

This is not quite the right way of looking at it, if your goal is to make DVDs. Each conversion contributes to the degradation of quality, even if each successive step moves to a higher compression (i.e. uncompressed -> DV -> mpeg). In fact, if you capture as DV (with the Formac) and then output to mpeg for your DVD, the artifacts induced by the DV capture will be magnified in the mpeg output. Capturing directly to mpeg (uncompressed -> mpeg) will be higher quality, as the DV artifacts will not be there. So if you don't need to do anything more than cut-editing and chapter-marking, the ADS box is better.

However, if you need to do fancy editing or whatever, you have to go DV first and sacrifice some quality. Ideally, you should capture everything uncompressed and do your editing on the uncompressed files, but that gets to be expensive.

[MichaelLAX]

You can also play it back out to tape so to record your new edited movie something you cant do with the MPEG boxes.

Not accurate: The ADS box allows you to output your MPEG-1/2 files (even those that have been "trimmed") back to tape.

[KaiCherry]

My Two Cents:

Pixela's Box its the best consumer external MPEG2 box out there. The video is *much* less noisy than the ADS unit.

-K

[kkant]

Pixela's Box its the best consumer external MPEG2 box out there. The video is *much* less noisy than the ADS unit.

Cool. Any way we can get this in the US?

The new ADS box, the Instant DVD 2.0, looks like it has similar specs to the Pixela box. Perhaps they use the same chipset. unfortunately it doesn't look like the 2.0 ADS box is out for the Mac yet (prolly cause we don't have USB2 in any shipping machines).