PAL DV to SVCD conversion... better quality possible?

[elsinga]

Hi!

What I want is to make it easy to view my own DV-cam PAL home movies. Now I edit them and export them to VHS tape, but all the (re)winding is painfull. And I don;t want to use my DV-cam for viewing/winding, since that wears them out fast. I also have no DVD-writer (yet?), so I can only use CD's. I choose to go the SVCD route.

After reading/searching on the above topic here, I used the following method to burn my home movies on SVCD:
- import the movie from DV-cam with ///Fast.Forward (since I have a Fast DV.now firewire card)
- edit the movie in Adobe Premiere 6
- export the movie to AVI (but not uncompressed, since that fills up the harddisk way too fast! I have to look up the codec I used, if anyone would like to know... but it's a win2k standard one, since MS DV or FAST DV didn't import into TMPGenc)
- use TMPGenc Plus to create an SVCD with the SVCD PAL template and with Highest Quality, CBR 2520 (or 2-pass VBR 1200/2350/2520, not much difference in quality or filesize, but VBR takes 3 times longer to convert)
- burn the SVCD with Nero 5.5.x
- play the SVCD on my JVC XV-N30 DVD player connected to my Philips 28pw8505 100Hz 16:9 tv via RGB

This method creates SVCD's that don't have too much MPEG artifacts with fast movement, but I see quite a lot of artifacts around edges or on detailed shots (trees as an example)... far more than were on the DV tape (screencaps on request). And more then on the PAL SVCD test-CD from vcdhelp.com...

I know SVCD can't beat the (uncompressed) 25Mb/s datarate of DV-tape, but I like to get as close to DV quality as possible.

I tried using non-standard SVCD's (since I'm not very interrested in compatability, just on playing on my own setup):
- 720x576 resolution at cbr 2520, still the same edge thing and more MPEG artifacts (hey, the same datarate and higher resolution... what else to expect...)
- CBR > 2520, over 3000 CBR makes the JVC skip data, since it can't read it anymore...
- VBR >2520, fast movement makes the JVC skip data (because then the datarate gets to high...)

I also tried CVD, sacrifising resolution over compression, but the result was worse than the SVCD.

Since my home video's rarely are over 15 minutes, I'm thinking of trying a mini-DVD, but the compatability section here states my JVC can't read them and my >2520 datarate tries makes me assume it won't work.

My questions:
- can I improve the quality of my DV to SVCD conversion to the level of that of the PAL SVCD test CD? If so, how?
- is re-importing my movies from DV-tape with DV-io better than with Fast.Forward? Does it create DV material that TMPGenc can use (still had no time to try... sorry to sound lazy her )
- is it normal to have artifacts around edges on SVCD, like around shoulders?
- does the codec used for the export in Premiere make a (large) difference? What codec can I used best for import into TMPGenc Plus?
- any other suggestions?

[DJRumpy]

Regarding your rewind issue, any VHS owner will tell you this one. Get a rewinder. They cost only a few dollars, and they are well worth the investment, and wear and tear saved on your equipment.

As you already know, bumping the resolution up, without increasing the bitrate will get you nothing. Since it would appear you player doesn't support xVCD/SVCD, you need to consider other alternatives. The multipass mode in TMPGenc will take twice as long, but the output will look better. How much video (what length in hours/minutes/seconds) are you trying to fit on one disc? The VBR settings your using don't give the encoder much bitrange to work with ( 1200/2350/2520 ). Try setting your MIN to 0, or 300. Set your AVG setting according to how much your tying to fit onto one disc. The closer your average is to your MIN, or your MAX, the less variance the encoder will have to do your encodes. Your only giving the encoder barely over 1000kb/sec range to work with on VBR. Lowering the MIN value will give it a much broader range to work with. You should also consider using a different Matrix. Someone posted a Cam specific matrix (search the forum for it with 'cam' and 'matrix' as keywords..you should find it without too much work).

I'm suprised the CVD output looked so much worse than the SVCD. It may have been a hair softer, but you should have seen less artifacts around the edges of items. It should also have less artifacts in high motion scenes, since the bitrate demands are lower for CVD, than for SVCD.

If your DV is Type-1? You can try converting it to Type-2 (you never mentioned what happend when you tried to open them directly in TMPGenc). This may help with importing it into TMPGenc. You can always convert it to Type-2, and open the AVI with VirtualDub, and then frameserve it to TMPGenc. These converters are in the TOOS section (freeware).

Also, make sure you using a good motion detection setting in TMPGenc. You'll need it for Cam sources.

[elsinga]

Regarding your rewind issue, any VHS owner will tell you this one. Get a rewinder. They cost only a few dollars, and they are well worth the investment, and wear and tear saved on your equipment.

Yeah, but you get the hassle of inserting it into the VCR every x seconds to see if you are "there" yet... since my visitors always want to see somthing not at the beginning of the tape.

As you already know, bumping the resolution up, without increasing the bitrate will get you nothing. Since it would appear you player doesn't support xVCD/SVCD, you need to consider other alternatives.

Oh, it does XSCVD no problem. Only the datarate is a problem for the drive.

The multipass mode in TMPGenc will take twice as long, but the output will look better.

Better than CBR? I always (well, since a few weeks...) thought that CBR is best and that the 2-pass is to do GOOD VBR.

How much video (what length in hours/minutes/seconds) are you trying to fit on one disc? The VBR settings your using don't give the encoder much bitrange to work with ( 1200/2350/2520 ). Try setting your MIN to 0, or 300. Set your AVG setting according to how much your tying to fit onto one disc. The closer your average is to your MIN, or your MAX, the less variance the encoder will have to do your encodes. Your only giving the encoder barely over 1000kb/sec range to work with on VBR. Lowering the MIN value will give it a much broader range to work with.

Maximum of half an hour, so CBR 2520 is always okay. But I keep the 0/calculted average/2520 hint in mind if I need to go oever 40 minutes.

You should also consider using a different Matrix. Someone posted a Cam specific matrix (search the forum for it with 'cam' and 'matrix' as keywords..you should find it without too much work).

Already looked that one up as a result of the search. Will try the vb1 (mb1?) matrix soon.

I'm suprised the CVD output looked so much worse than the SVCD. It may have been a hair softer, but you should have seen less artifacts around the edges of items. It should also have less artifacts in high motion scenes, since the bitrate demands are lower for CVD, than for SVCD.

Could be I didn;t use Highest Quality for the CVD, will retry that one.

If your DV is Type-1? You can try converting it to Type-2 (you never mentioned what happend when you tried to open them directly in TMPGenc). This may help with importing it into TMPGenc. You can always convert it to Type-2, and open the AVI with VirtualDub, and then frameserve it to TMPGenc. These converters are in the TOOS section (freeware).

My DV probably is type 1, so I will also try exporting as DV AVI and converting to type 2.

Also, make sure you using a good motion detection setting in TMPGenc. You'll need it for Cam sources.

I used the Highest Quality, or am I now talking about a differnt thing here?

Thnaks for the help so far!

[DJRumpy]

Better than CBR? I always (well, since a few weeks...) thought that CBR is best and that the 2-pass is to do GOOD VBR.

Given a mix of easy and difficult scenes, VBR will always produce better results than CBR. It's also pretty much assumed than any typical video will have easy (low motion), and difficult scenes (high motion/fades), as it would be pretty boring to stare at a scene containing no motion for an hour or two (think On Golden Pond on valium).

Movies are almost always a mix of motion. If they weren't, they'd be like photographs. This is the same reason pretty much every store bought Movie DVD uses VBR. The output looks better, given that your VBR settings are correct.

Even setting your VBR so it acted like CBR (min/avg/max all the same), you'd still get a better encode than Single-Pass CBR, simply due to the encoders foreknowledge of what it has to encode. It gets this from the first pass. It is better able to handle scene changes, and fades, since it knows about them in advance.

[elsinga]

Better than CBR? I always (well, since a few weeks...) thought that CBR is best and that the 2-pass is to do GOOD VBR.

Given a mix of easy and difficult scenes, VBR will always produce better results than CBR. It's also pretty much assumed than any typical video will have easy (low motion), and difficult scenes (high motion/fades), as it would be pretty boring to stare at a scene containing no motion for an hour or two (think On Golden Pond on valium).

Okay, but I thought VBR is only for cutting down on the filesize... since it will not go beyond my CBR datarate.

Movies are almost always a mix of motion. If they weren't, they'd be like photographs. This is the same reason pretty much every store bought Movie DVD uses VBR. The output looks better, given that your VBR settings are correct.

Even setting your VBR so it acted like CBR (min/avg/max all the same), you'd still get a better encode than Single-Pass CBR, simply due to the encoders foreknowledge of what it has to encode. It gets this from the first pass. It is better able to handle scene changes, and fades, since it knows about them in advance.

Ah! So it not only uses the knowledge of past frames, also future frames? That would be a good thing to know, encoding-wise.

BTW: I tried CVD in high Quality and the image indeed has less artifacts and is a bit more blurry. The SVCD version in sharper (most noticable in titles) but has more artifacts. Now I'll go for CVD VBR (2520/2520/2520 for a start, LOL!)

[elsinga]

You should also consider using a different Matrix. Someone posted a Cam specific matrix (search the forum for it with 'cam' and 'matrix' as keywords..you should find it without too much work).

I found one for CCE... not for TMPGenc... any chance of a pointer?

[DJRumpy]

That's the one. Just put those numbers into the TMPGenc settings. The matrix is the same for either encoder.


Intrablock
8,13,13,17,17,21,21,28,
13,13,17,17,19,21,23,30,
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,34,
13,17,19,19,21,23,28,48,
17,19,19,19,23,28,34,48,
19,19,23,25,28,32,34,48,
19,21,23,25,28,32,34,48,
21,21,25,25,28,32,34,48

Non-Intrablock
8,11,11,15,15,17,17,24,
11,11,15,15,17,17,21,24,
13,15,15,17,21,21,26,34,
13,17,15,17,21,21,26,48,
17,21,21,23,21,30,34,48,
17,21,21,23,28,30,34,48,
19,19,25,26,28,30,48,48,
19,19,25,26,28,30,48,48

[elsinga]

Thanks, will try that tomorrow evening!

[edit] TMPGenc is running now, while I'm at work... [/edit]

BTW: I was using the FAST AV Master MJPEG codec until now, now exporting using MS DV PAL... when I'm home I'll try to convert the type and put TMPGenc at work again...

[elsinga]

Okay, the results!

The new matrix above didn't improve the picture quality in any way for me. The same for the Huffy lossless codec (and that sure does eat away your diskspace fast!).

So I'm now quite sure the best possible quality for me is:
- capture DV and edit in Premiere like usual
- export as MS AVI with FAST AV Master MJPEG codec
- convert to CVD with TMPGenc with VBR 0/2350/2520 with the default matrix
- burn as SVCD with Nero

It has less MPEG artifacts (around edges and with motion) than any of the attempts I did, while being perfectly alright for home viewing. It has better than VHS quality, is easier to play and I get about 40 minutes on one CD-R.

Now if I only could convince the misses into buying a DVD-RW....

[DJRumpy]

You should be able to stick far more video than 40 minutes using CVD. You can lower your average, espeically with CVD, using VBR.

[elsinga]

Good! My computer is now at home converting 2 clips with TMPGenc (running 3 instances of TMPGenc during the night was not the success I hoped... one errored out and the other two were insanely slow...). Tonight capturing one more hour of clips, exporting them and convert them.

I will of course put the final results here, minutes per cdr that is. I will for now keep the 2350 average, since it is all hand-filmed DV footage (which has lots of movement and requires higher bitrates).

[DJRumpy]

Handheld cam is one of the hardest to encode. Make sure you leave it interlaced, and ensure TMPGenc sets the bottom field first. Try the second slowest motion detection setting (or the slowest if you don't mind the wait).

[elsinga]

I must check the bottom field setting (but I'm pretty sure it is bottom field first) and I'm using the slowest motion detection setting (encoding is done in batch overnight). Interlaced is standard.

So far I'm pretty happy with the process, this weekend I'm going to burn a handfull of CD-R's as CVD with my movies. That will be the real test, showing them to the family.

Thanks for all the help!