TMPGenc or CCE 2.50??

[Sefy]

Here's what I think about this whole "quality" issues, one thinks CCE is better and the other thinks TMPGEnc is better, the one that thinks CCE is better will give a sample to the other one, and he will tell him that quality stinks!

Why ? cause everyone looks at quality differently! there are those who like to stuff their face in the monitor and find anything that they can consider defect and then gloatly say: see, that microscopic pixel over this unseen dot is crap!

Personaly, I saw no difference whatsoever between CCE and TMPGEnc while doing a VCD encoding of the same movie, but maybe that's cause I don't try and FIND the defects or microscopic frame by frame differences.

For crying out loud, it's a movie! what's the big deal ? if you want super high quality, buy the DVD for crying out loud

[SatStorm]

It is more of a personal taste overall.

Personally, I prefer the TMPGenc blockiness from CCE's smokito noise.
Maybe because I use to, from the DVB transmissions. Who knows...

And I belong to that stupid Gui part people. I don't have the time to learn avisyth. I have to learn a ton new programs everymonth. Expecially now which I have to learn to author DVDs (I bought my own, finally...). Work, have a girlfriend an bills and then ask me IF you have time for hobbies...
Also, after so many years, I know the solution for all the picture quality problems/ problems in generall. It is called: MORE BITRATE. DVD allow this, so practical speaking, I prefer to rise about 500kb/s the average bitrate, than to try to master any technick to win 5 min of video per CD.
From this point, TMPGenc and CCE are equal. Rise the bitrate and that's it.
The differences can be really seen on extreme situations. With DVD, those extreme situations are past...

[Sefy]

I'm with you on that! with all the programs i've put on my guide, I got no patience to learn how to use AVIsynth and all the fine tweaking and tuning of every single application.

What can I say, i'm also one of those lazy people who prefer a good GUI

[rob1]

I've gotta chime in for any newbies reading this (being a relative newbie myself). I am completely computer illiterate. I still have trouble with email. Seriously. And I find CCE Basic much easier to use than TMPGenc because there aren't many options to play with. You open the file, set the bitrate and push a button. It took me less than 30 minutes to figure out how to tweek things, save as a template and run batch encodes. It's virtually idiot proof, which is a big part of why I liked it.

But yea- no filters. So I took DJRumpy's advice (a while back- for which I never said 'thanks'- so 'thanks) and tried out avisynth. It took me half a day to figure out- and remember, I'm an idiot when it comes to this stuff. But hey- I can write a text file. I wrote this one:

LoadPlugin("C:\Documents and Settings\Robin\Desktop\soft downloads\avisynth\plugins\UnDot.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Documents and Settings\Robin\Desktop\soft downloads\avisynth\plugins\Bordercontrol.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Documents and Settings\Robin\Desktop\soft downloads\avisynth\plugins\BicublinResize.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Documents and Settings\Robin\Desktop\soft downloads\avisynth\plugins\PeachSmoother.dll")
AVISource("e:\02.avi").FixBrokenChromaUpsampling()
clip1=Trim(12164,12928)
clip2=Trim(12931,13552)
clip1++clip2
SeparateFields()
e = SelectEven().UnDot().PeachSmoother().Tweak(sat=1.4 )
o = SelectOdd().UnDot().PeachSmoother().Tweak(sat=1.4)
Interleave(e,o)
Weave()
BicubicResize(352,480)
BorderControl(YBB=8,YTB=8)
undot()

I use it every time- filters noise nicely, clips out my commercials and resizes. Seriously- how hard is that? Save it as a text file with an .avs extension, load it into cce and you have the filter capabilities of TMPGenc and the speed of cce- and personally I can't tell enough of a quality difference to matter. I'm just saying- don't let cce and avisynth scare you off because they're hard to use because if I can figure it out in a couple of hours ANYBODY can do it. The only reason it gets complicated is because there are so MANY options as you get into things more it will make your head spin (sits patiently waiting for someone to tell me how my core script is crap...). But it really isn't difficult!

All that said- the differences between CCE and TMPGenc probably come close to equaling out and both seem to be good choices to me.

[DJRumpy]

Rob1, just as an FYI, if you put those Plugin DLL's into your plugin directory, you don't have to specifically load them using LoadPlugin(""). By default, it's in your AVISynth program directory, but you can change it in RegEdit (\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\AVISYNTH\PLUGINDIR

Just put in any valid path, and drop your DLL's into that directory. Any DLL or .AVS script functions there will be loaded automatically.

[energy80s]

I have never used CCE as I find it too complicated to get anything done with it. And all this AVI Synth rubbish is just a distraction. TMPG lets you SEE what effect any given setting will have on the finished output immediately - text files don't. It's just a pity that TMPG wouldn't encode faster as i don't believe in leaving a computer running overnight so usually end up bringing it into work to render some projects (currently running off the last of Raiders of the Lost Ark while I'm writing this and alledgedly working!!) but other than that I am very happy with it. Then again I use version 2.56 as I have seen nothing but problems with later versions of the software - in fact this holds true for most applications, never use the latest version if an older one works OK! At the end of the day the original source material will govern just how good the final result will be, irrespective of what encoder is used, and with DVDR's now becoming the method of storage for our projects, bitrates and file sizes are no longer critical so it's much easier to get great picture quality no matter which encoder you have.

[DJRumpy]

TMPG lets you SEE what effect any given setting will have on the finished output immediately - text files don't.

Off course they do. You just drop your .AVS onto Media Player (or whatever you use), or just double-click it if you've associated .AVS with Media Player. It will be played as if it was an AVI, with any and all modifications you've put into your script rendered in realtime. This is actually better than TMPGenc's tiny preview window in my opinion, as you can see the actual output played back in the proper output resolution, and with all of your modifications, not just a specific filter. If your squemish about such things, you should try the GUI handlers for AVISynth. They take all of the pain out of learning it.

[energy80s]

What's a .avs file? I know that in TMPG I can see exactly how my cropped or filtered picture looks as I am working on it. From what I know of CCE it doesn't work like this.

[DJRumpy]

The .AVS file is the text file containing the AVISynth script commands. Once AVISynth is installed, it can be 'played', just as if it was an AVI in any avi compatible player. It can also be dropped onto any encoder that accepts frameserved input. It will be treated just like an avi in those cases too.

[adam]

AVS files are the scripts that Avisynth works with. Its just a text file, but saved with an .avs extension. If you open it in media player or just about any other software player than it will play just as if it were an mpg or an avi file. You can view any changes you have made in your script in this way.

Or you can simply load your AVS script into your encoder and preview it there. CCE offers a nice big preview screen where you can see the effects of all your filters and modifications.

There is also an avisynth filter called AVSMon which displays a preview of the movie and its resulting quality as it encodes, ala the preview window in TMPGenc.

What I think most people don't realize about avisynth is that for most things you only need maybe one or two commands, and you can just use the same script for all the same conversions. For many scripts, the only thing that changes is the path to your source. If you are not inclined to learn avisynth than just use something like FitCD. Load the d2v and it exports a very well written avisynth script.

You really don't have to know anything about avisynth scripting to use avisynth. There are several different types of programs which do it all for you. Or if you really hate avisynth, than you can frameserve to CCE through VFAPI or even Virtual Dub if you just want a frameserver in a gui interphase. Of course you do lose alot of speed with these methods if you have a YUV source, but it will still be faster than most other encoders.

And I keep saying this. If you like TMPGenc's interphase but want CCE's speed than just FRAMESERVE from TMPGenc to CCE. Sure TMPGenc's filters are going to slow you down by alot, but the boost in raw encoding speed is still very sizeable.

[DJRumpy]

And I keep saying this. If you like TMPGenc's interphase but want CCE's speed than just FRAMESERVE from TMPGenc to CCE. Sure TMPGenc's filters are going to slow you down by alot, but the boost in raw encoding speed is still very sizeable.

LOL. I haven't seen you post that, but I may have overlooked it. Simplicity at it's best. Get the best of both worlds (or at least a good chunk of em...).

[energy80s]

But why bother using two programmes when one will do? (ie. TMPG) I'm not a fan of frameserving either and see it as a workaround for poorly designed software. At least with TMPG you just load the file (should it be avi, MPEG1, MPEG2, JPG, WAV or whatever) and away you go. Another programme I have a severe gripe with is VCD Easy (which has to be an Oxymoron if ever there was one!!) as it's one of the most unfriendly programmes out there ... but that's another story!!

To be honest, if there was a hardware box that just connected between various sources and produced the proper (selected) output - DVD, VCD, DV, Quicktime, RealMedia, WMV, I wouldn't bother with a PC at all!

[adam]

But why bother using two programmes when one will do? (ie. TMPG)

Because its always faster, and in the eyes of many people its higher quality as well. Instead of hitting Start in TMPGenc, you just save your project file instead. Then you load the project file in VFAPI converter and it creates a small avi file. Then you load this in CCE. You spend an extra 5 seconds with the frameserving and you knock maybe 5 hours off your encoding time. For most people, that is definitely a fair trade. And to be totally honest with you, in my opinion, for every filter in TMPGenc there are at least 3 better versions of it that can be used through avisynth. Even when I encode with TMPGenc, I still do all my filtering through avisynth.

Or, you can simply use avisynth with CCE, its really very simple. Create a script once, which takes maybe 5 mins, and then use that script everytime for that type of source. So now you get faster encoding and it actually takes much less time to setup than TMPGenc.

CCE is a professional level software encoder. Professional film transfers use preprocessing. That's just the way it is. If you want the easy route use TMPGenc. If you want a faster method then you'll have to learn to use CCE or Mainconcept, and once you do you will see that its actually even easier to use than TMPGenc. If you want the highest quality method, then try them all and see which one looks best to you, and if you happen to prefer TMPGenc's output than you will just have to live with the slow speed.

Its just sad though that most of the people who bash CCE simply choose not to bother learning how to use it. That's not directed at anyone in particular, it just seems to happen way too often on this forum.

[SatStorm]

It's not only because people don't bother learning how to use it. It is also because CCE was (not is) expensive and even if you learn how to use it, you had to be illegal to own it. Now with CCE Basic, a newbie have more legal choices. For older users, the decisions had already been taken, so you can't change them. Even if you try to be openminded (like I try to be), I trust and use only the product I had the first success. I never had success on my own using the demo of CCE 2.5. I had from my very fist try success with TMPGenc. So, my personal opinion is that TMPGenc is easier for me. Who knows why... Because of the education I had? Because of the logic I learned by the school? I don't know.

But because I'm open minded, , I "learned" how to use CCE and you adam also point me some things for testing it correct, so I can say that CCE is better. But it is not SO better. We talking about a 5% here. And you know the funny part? Even if I know that CCE is better myself, I continue using TMPGenc and only TMPGenc.
Maybe TMPGenc is like your girlfriend. If you stuck with it, you can't seperate easy. Expecially if you are not teen. Anyway.

Also, there are the usual issues: CCE is better for full CCIR resolutions and progressive material. TMPGenc is at least equal for lower resolutions and for interlace material - like the DVB transmissions which are almost the only source I use - let's say that there are times which TMPGenc can make it better.

This is a stupid really subject: The short answer is CCE is the best, TMPGenc follows close. Why we have to talk all the time for it?


I also suspect something, a little theory of mine but I need a poll to see if it is real or just in my mind...
Do a poll like this:

I was good in mathematics and I use CCE
I was stupid in mathematics and I use CCE
I was good in mathematics and I TMPGenc
I was stupid in mathematics and I use TMPGenc

I want to see the results. Maybe, because of the differences of our education system and the way we learn to think by it, for americans/ australians/ british CCE looks simplier than TMPGenc.
As I know, in US mathematics is the base of anything. In my country is just another lesson. I finished school with an average of mathematics of 9 from 20, lower than the base. Yep, I didn't like math. But I'm in electronics and also second chif editor to a technology magazine with great success here. So, in my language, I have also good writing skills.
But If I was in US, and because of the education system you have there, who knows what and where I would be today. Maybe a worker in a farm....

[txpharoah]

...but maybe that's cause I don't try and FIND the defects or microscopic frame by frame differences.For crying out loud, it's a movie! what's the big deal ? if you want super high quality, buy the DVD for crying out loud...

Yeah. But the horrible outcome of working in a pro-video-use industry is that you CANNOT not see the errors. I hate it. I sometimes wish I'd NEVER started to work with video. It's hard to even enjoy tv anymore. I'll get annoyed at the simplest interlace errors during a baseball game or at the bad chroma conversion on anime. Sync issues on the networks bother me, and glitches on pressed discs are the worst (especially when you rent it and have to drive back to Blockbuster to return the defect, hoping they have a replacement on the shelf still). I'd rather be as 'dumb' as a casual watcher, forgetting all my knowledge and quality peeves.

[energy80s]

Its just sad though that most of the people who bash CCE simply choose not to bother learning how to use it. That's not directed at anyone in particular, it just seems to happen way too often on this forum.

Very true. That's why I don't bash the end result of CCE just the user interface and procedures required to get to the end result. CCE isn't alone in this, many programmes are very poorly executed, and as there is now such a choice of programmes one can easily avoid the "less friendly" ones without missing out on the whole experience. TMPG is a mighty fine encoder no matter what price range you compare it to, so as we say in the BBC ... D.F.R. (Do F**king Rightly!)

[Dizug]

How would you FRAMESERVE in TMPGenc. Can someone guide me through this process. I am kinda new to this and still learning.

[adam]

If you mean frameserve from TMPGenc, look at my previous post. You just make all your settings and then save a project file. File/save project. Then load this project file in VFAPI converter. It will create a small avi file which can be loaded into any program that accepts avi files. Then just encode in the encoder as normal. All of your settings in TMPGenc will be processed before the frames get to the encoder, where they are actually encoded to your output format.

If you mean frameserve to TMPGenc, then you will have to be more specific. There are several ways to frameserve.

[Dizug]

"Then you load the project file in VFAPI converter and it creates a small avi file. Then you load this in CCE. You spend an extra 5 seconds with the frameserving and you knock maybe 5 hours off your encoding time."


This is what you wrote on your previous post. I was wondering if you could lead me through the steps after you load the project file into CCE[/quote]

[vhelp]

@ energy80s..

Actually, I prefer to use vdub as my MAIN framerer to TMPG. Why ??

Well, because I do all kinds of test validations BEFORE it reaches TMPG.
If I need to do any filtering, or checkout a frame or two or more or
whatever, I can do it first (and faster) in vdub.

Also, if I'm performing IVTC, I much prefer AVIsynth's w/ decomb.dll
as my main IVTC, and feed that into vdub, and THEN, have my last and
final look at the .avi file before I send it off to TMPG for encode. As far as
I can tell, there is no slow up either.. even w/ three frameserving mechanics
going on.

Personly, I don't know why anyone WOULD want to just shove an .avi file
down TMPG's throut w/ out giving it a once over in vdub or something.
Looking at it in TMPG isn't enough.

You know.. I think I have an explanation as to why lots of people do not
like to feed such files via frameserving and whatnots because they don't
have a better method of "control" and "speed" of handling the .avi file and
verify it for any defects or issues of whatever.. and that's why they don't
have the patiants for it, and instead, just through it into TMPG and encode.

My method is simple (though criptic at first) and as such, I never have any
issues w/ first bringing in my captured clips into:
* vdub -> tmpg or
* avisynth -> vdub -> tmpg

But, once you figure out the method, you never go back, and it's second
nature to you.

-vhelp

[adam]

Dizug

You load the project file that TMPGenc creates into VFAPI converter, not CCE. The program should be in the tools section to your left. VFAPI converter creates an avi file. Just load this avi into CCE, make whatever settings you want, and encode to mpeg.

Are you just asking how to encode in CCE? If so read the manual first, and then I'd be happy to answer any questions you have about the various settings, but most of them pretty much work like any other encoder on the market.

[kwag]

What's a .avs file?

It's something like this:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3483

That let's you create all of this on one CD-R

www.kvcd.net/704x480-showoff.mpg
www.kvcd.net/small-adaptive-sampler.mpg
www.kvcd.net/red-planed-action-704x480.mpg
www.kvcd.net/red-planet-704x480.mpg
www.kvcd.net/red-planet-extreme-704x480.mpg

Have fun

[vhelp]

@ Kwag..

and I thought you was in bed. hehe..
-vhelp

[txpharoah]

You load the project file that TMPGenc creates into VFAPI converter, not CCE. The program should be in the tools section to your left. VFAPI converter creates an avi file. Just load this avi into CCE, make whatever settings you want, and encode to mpeg.

I'd never even considered this before. But upon trying to load a TPR into the VFAPI converter, it fails. Nothing but an OK box and a red exclamation. It won't let me load the TPR, and it's a perfectly valid TMPGenc project.

I have a feeling I'm missing something simple, but I'm not finding anything to read or having success on my own.

Any suggestions adam?

[vhelp]

@ txpharoah..

yes.. *.tpr, i've gone this before w/ CCE. You might have to fiddle inside
TMPG's menu, Options/Enviornment/VFAPI Plug-in and change the order
of one or two items and try again.

-vhelp

[txpharoah]

@ txpharoah.. yes.. *.tpr, i've gone this before w/ CCE. You might have to fiddle inside TMPG's menu, Options/Enviornment/VFAPI Plug-in and change the order of one or two items and try again. -vhelp

Took a screen cap of my settings (to not forget the original order), played musical chairs with them, no success at any combination, and have now put them back. Running a TMPGenc conversion in the background, need to finish the project at hand, but would be willing to try the "use-TMPGenc-but-encode-with-CCE-for-better-speed" method.

I'm still sure I'm missing something, but it's either something I don't know or something so easy that I'm being careless and forgetting.

As far as other encoders, using the AVS scripts with LSX is kinda buggy (encoding with a lack of colors), and ProCoder is not doing too well with 352x480 MPEG2 source (it refuses to see the source as 4:3, so the output is mis-shaped). I'd love to figure these things all out on my own, but work calls, and I've got to finish, no matter the speed or method. So any suggestions on anything is fine, especially the CCE/TMPGenc crossover.

[adam]

Any suggestions adam?

No not really, I've done it tons of times with no problems. So you hit "Add Job" and load the TPR file and the new little box doesn't pop up?

[vhelp]

@ txpharoah..

hmm... I'll have to play with this one to be sure that it works for me. I
still have CCE on my system (version ??) and, although I don't use it, it's
just around for purposes like these, ta help others (or myselfe) out if I
can, etc.

Audio suggestion...
Did you remember to leave out the audio. This is always a big issue w/
my setup. I always have (had) to leave out the audio, though in most
tipicle scenarios, I have the [x] audio box checked and un-checked. But,
I'm talking about the "prior to" feeding it into CCE.

Also suggest...
As a final step, try feeding CCE w/ different types of .AVI codec'ed compresions..
ie, BTYUV, MJPEG, HUFFY, RGB, YV12 etc. Do various captures. I found in
past experience, going through this same step, and finally getting it to work
w/ minimum fuss. Prolem is, I can't remember

But, I'll try and do some test runs on my end, in hopes that what ever my
successes are on MY end, you'll undoubtfully experience the same on YOURS.

See you in a bit, less someone else find the answers before I hehe..

-vhelp

[Sefy]

@txpharoah, since you work in the video industry, then i'm guessing even a DVD wouldn't be that high quality for you, especialy since it is encoded as well

[SatStorm]

Well, here in europe with DVB transmissions, we learn to live with bad quality. Take this example



This is a simply frame of a source. (704 X 576 DVB).
Believe it or not, this file can be encoded much better with TMPGenc than CCE!