DVD Pal to DVD NTSC

[Xesdeeni]

@FulciLives

Well I have a stand alone DVD player (the Cyberhome CH-DVD 500) that can play back a PAL DVD and convert it to NTSC and it apparently does it on-the-fly and in a way so that the video matches the original audio.

I can't speak for your DVD player, but I've studied mine, and I think I know how it is being done:

1. First, every other field is discarded, giving 288 lines of image. This is evident because the vertical resolution of the resulting NTSC image is sub-par. Also, there is no "shimmer" in the result, so the same field information appears to be discarded at all times.
2. The 288 lines are fed through the DVD player's letterbox scaler. This scaler is designed to take 480 or 240 lines and create 360 lines, so it is a 3/4 downscaler (with interpolation for 240 line sources). This turns the 288 lines into 432 lines. This is evident because the resulting NTSC image is slightly squashed and doesn't cover the entire screen, top to bottom.
3. The playback is slowed down from 25 to 23.976 fps. I'm pretty sure about this because there is no "bump" as would be visible if the 25 fps were telecined directly. I also think the time displayed on the front of the player just runs slower. I haven't hand-timed this, but I believe I will find that the actual running time won't match the displayed time.
4. The audio is pitch shifted upward to compensate for the slowdown. The DVD player has karaoke capability and can pitch shift the audio up and down. I believe this is the case because I don't notice any pitch difference from when I play the DVD on the computer. I haven't listened for slightly slower timing, though.

So if a stand alone DVD player can somehow convert the PAL video to NTSC video to match the original audio ... well ... you would think there would be a software encoding method that could do the same. How do to that though is a mystery to me...

You can certainly do the same conversion with AVISynth, with the exception of the audio pitch shift compensation. However, I would prefer not to throw out one field during the conversion. When you throw out the field, you effectively have 25 progressive fps, even if the source was originally interlaced. But if you keep both fields, you have to deal with both possibilities (progressive or interlaced).

I think the two best approaches for progressive are to slow to 23.976 fps and telecine (with the appropriate audio conversion), or to telecine directly from the 25 fps. It was the latter technique that I was wondering if you'd tried. For interlaced, I think the technique I've posted using a smart deinterlacer works incredibly well.

However right now I'm running TMPGEnc ... got the bug again ... to convert a PAL movie to NTSC ... so I don't want to run too much at once as this computer is SLOW and TMPGEnc will be running for like another 24 hours or so hehehe. I'm looking at about 37 hours encode time here to convert a 16x9 PAL DVD to a 16x9 NTSC DVD using 2-pass VBR encoding ... I'm way past upgrade time but haven't the money...

Getting Cinema Craft Basic would probably halve your rendering time for only $58, which is probably cheaper than the hardware upgrade

So a "true" PAL to NTSC conversion will restore the original 24fps rate so a PAL DVD with a running time of 115 minutes will be 120 minutes when converted to NTSC...

I guess I'm being pedantic here, but I'm not sure I agree with your assertion. Certainly a cinema film will be sped from 24 to 25 fps when converted to PAL. But there are a number of PAL sources that are natively 25 fps and should not be slowed down. Obviously video, which will more than likely also be interlaced, was shot at 25 fps and shouldn't be slowed down when converting to NTSC. But also, much European footage is shot on film cameras that have been modifed to capture 25 fps on film. Directors object to even the 4% speed change (http://216.239.39.100/search?q=cache:a-7E0W9DUkoJ:www.artistsrights.org/cf/news/detail...ng_en&ie=UTF-8) so this is a technique they've used for direct-to-video, especially for outside shots, before the availability of higher quality portable video cameras. So "a 'true' PAL to NTSC conversion" would take into account the original source. I'm probably quibbling here because I haven't converted a PAL movie to NTSC very often, but I've converted a number of PAL television shows (video) to NTSC (I just LOVE British comedies!).

Xesdeeni

[FulciLives]

Hello

I can't speak for your DVD player, but I've studied mine, and I think I know how it is being done ...

That sounds like the ESS chip (at least I think that is the name of it). This is the chip used in most APEX/DAEWOO/SAMPO players and it always screws up the aspect ratio when doing PAL to NTSC conversion. If the original is 4:3 (full screen or widescreen) it will squash the image making everyone look too short and fat but if the original is 16x9 enhanced then it does the opposite and stretches the picture so that everyone is too tall and thin.

The Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 uses a different chip and retains the original aspect ratio when doing the conversion. The JVC and Malata players also retain the OAR although they use a different chip than the Cyberhome (and again not the same as the APEX/DAEWOO/SAMPO units).

I think the two best approaches for progressive are to slow to 23.976 fps and telecine (with the appropriate audio conversion), or to telecine directly from the 25 fps. It was the latter technique that I was wondering if you'd tried. For interlaced, I think the technique I've posted using a smart deinterlacer works incredibly well.

When you say "It was the lattre technique that I was wondering if you'd tried" I am not sure exactly what technique you are talking about. Is this on your website? Is it the same as the process of going from 25i to 29.97i as per your website?

Getting Cinema Craft Basic would probably halve your rendering time for only $58, which is probably cheaper than the hardware upgrade

My TMPGEnc encode finally finished and it ended up "only" taking 29hours and 44 seconds. I can live with it for now. The quality was rather good but I used MP2 sound and I am currently using BeSweet to convert the original AC-3 to AC-3 (doing the frame rate thing). I originally did an AC-3 to WAV (dong the frame rate thing) then I would feed the WAV into TMPGEnc when doing the video so I could immediately see after TEST CLIPS if the video and sound were in synch. When I did the final encode I still fed the WAV into TEMPGEnc but selected seperate outputs (a m2v and a mp2). I guess that is a waste but at least I know I have room on the DVD-R for the AC-3 now since my calculations took into effect not just video but also audio (even if it was based on a mp2 audio track I am replacing with an ac3 audio track).

I haven't tried your method of converting an interlaced PAL source to 29.97fps NTSC but the trailer to the movie I just converted is interlaced (whereas the movie was progressive) so I might try thta now as I think I will have room left on the DVD-R to include the trailer.

I think my AC-3 is just about done ... over and out!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[DJRumpy]

Xesdeeni, I haven't seen you post in a while... 8)

Just as an fyi, the frame rate conversion in BeSweet does a timestretch. I will compress, or expand your audio to meet the new framerate. It does not speed up, or slow down your audio (ala AssumeFPS in AVISynth). This avoids the change in pitch. It also takes a hit in quality, although I've never noticed it.

Xesdeeni, the Farscape episodes used a 25fps to 29fps conversion. Created a weird telecine pattern, which was somewhat difficult to undo. I'd rather work on telecined 23.976 fps

Sometimes you just have to listed to a PAL, or NTSC file to see if the audio has been timestretched, or slowed down/sped up. As for the true PAL source film, and vice versa, if the authors were that worried about it, they should have shot in both framerates, although that would be expensive. Otherwise, I don't think they have no room to complain if they want their 'art' viewed in NTSC, and PAL land.

As for the conversion techniques. I find the easiest way to verify PAL material (progressive or interlaced), is to save it as a DVD2AVI project file, and open it with an AVISynth script in VirtualDub.

Last but not least, be careful of the aspect ratio reading in DVD2AVI. I've run across many old 'widescreen' versions of old DVD movies that were actually encoded in 4:3 letterboxed, but sold as widescreen. Sometimes you just have to verify that what you see is what you get. Since I've got my widescreen TV, these are a dead giveaway. You can always crop the 4:3 letterboxing off to restore it to true 16:9.

[FulciLives]

Hello

@Xesdeeni

I tried to convert the trailer on the PAL DVD but unlike the movie the trailer appears to be interlaced. So after doing the DVD2AVI thing I created the following AVS script:

#
# Created with Gordian Knot
#
# http://gknot.doom9.org
#
#  PLUGINS
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\mpeg2dec3.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\SmoothDeinterlacer.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\decomb.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\Convolution3d.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\FluxSmooth.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\TomsMoComp.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\VSFilter.dll")
#LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\GORDIA~1\SimpleResize.dll")
#
#  SOURCE
mpeg2source("D:\SLEEPLESS\Trailer\movie.d2v")
#
#  CROPPING
#crop(0,0,720,576)
#
SmoothDeinterlace(doublerate=true)
LanczosResize(720,480)
ConvertFPS(59.94)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2)
Weave()
ConvertToRGB()
#
#  TRIM
#trim(startframe,endframe)
#
#  IVTC
#Telecide(guide=1).Decimate(5)
#  or use
#IVTC(44,11,95)
#GreedyHMA(1,0,4,0,0,0,0,0)
#
#  DEINTERLACING (1)
#FieldDeinterlace()
#FieldDeinterlace(blend=false)
#TomsMoComp(1,5,1)
#
#  DEINTERLACING (2)
#SeparateFields().SelectEven()
#  or maybe
#Bob().SelectEven()
#  or maybe
#GreedyHMA(1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0)
#
#
#  SUBTITLES
#VobSub("FileName")
#
#  RESIZING
#LanczosResize(640,464)
#
#  DENOISING: choose one combination (or none)
#  1) little noise
#Temporalsoften(2,3,3,mode=2,scenechange=6)
#mergechroma(blur(1.3))
#FluxSmooth(5,7)
#
#  2) medium noise
#Temporalsoften(3,5,5,mode=2,scenechange=10)
#Convolution3d("moviehq") 
#FluxSmooth(7,7)
#
#  3) heavy noise
#Temporalsoften(4,8,8,mode=2,scenechange=10)
#Convolution3d("movielq") 
#FluxSmooth(10,15)
#
#  BORDERS
#AddBorders(left,top,right,bottom)
#
#  COMPRESSIBILITY CHECK
#  !!!!Snip Size now has to be 14 for use in GKnot!
#SelectRangeEvery(280,14)
#
#  FOOL CCEnc
#ResampleAudio(44100)

As you can see I usually use GORDIAN KNOT for my base AVS file then edit it as need be.

Anyway when I put this in TMPGEnc it recognized it as non-interlaced and as a VGA 1:1 source with FILM based material

Is that correct ???

When I tried to encode it all I got was black for the complete length.

HELP !!! hehehe

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[ams30gts]

ok i have my video file ready. how do i go about with besweetgui to convert the audio?

[FulciLives]

ok i have my video file ready. how do i go about with besweetgui to convert the audio?

Well when you used DVD2AVI it should have given you one or more AC-3 audio files. If there is a 5.1 AC-3 then use that.

First you need to download the newest BETA VERSIONS of BeSweet and the BeSweet GUI which can be found here:

http://dspguru.doom9.net/

You will also need AZID which you can download from the DOWNLOAD section of the DOOM9 website.

I'm no expert at using BeSweet but there is a guide on how to use it on the DOOM9 website. Look for the BeSweet guide on how to do AC-3 to AC-3 which is under the AUDIO section of the GUIDES section. The only thing different you will be doing from the guide is to make sure that you use the PRESET frame rate change of PAL (25fps) ---> NTSC (23.976) and although the guide doesn't mention it there is a place to check if you used DVD2AVI so this should be checked as it helps to correct the delay value (so the new AC-3 audio file has a delay of "0").

Not much to it really

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
My encoding of SLEEPLESS (aka NONHOSONNO) from PAL (16x9) to NTSC (16x9) is complete and it turned out super. I think I will be doing more of these ... next up is my PAL DVD of DELLAMORTE DELLAMORE (aka CEMETERY MAN).

*** NOTE FOR Xesdeeni ***
I still could use some help or pointers or some clarity whatever you want to call it on the PAL (interlaced) to NTSC (29.97fps) method as I can't seem to get it working (see my earlier post).

[FulciLives]

*** NOTE FOR Xesdeeni ***
I still could use some help or pointers or some clarity whatever you want to call it on the PAL (interlaced) to NTSC (29.97fps) method as I can't seem to get it working (see my earlier post).

OK well I figured it out on my own hehehe

I must say that the result looks damn good. I did the trailer to the movie that I encoded earlier however the trailer, unlike the movie, was interlaced (the movie was progressive). So anyways I went ahead and already made my NTSC DVD-R without the trailer but that's ok ... the trailer is very short and sucks anyway.

But the trailer was great for learning the process of converting an interlaced PAL DVD source to NTSC (at 29.97fps)

One thing that surprised me was that the video matches the original audio. THAT is VERY nice. All I had to do was run the program AC3Delay (a very small and free download I got from the DOOM9 website] to correct the -80 delay in the original PAL 2.0 AC-3 file and mux it (using TMPGEnc) with the M2V file that I created with TMPGEnc. Perfect sync and none of that BeSweet garbage.

I'm impressed

However, I am curious about something ...
On your website (@Xesdeeni) I notice that your parameters for the AVS file are (very) slightly different than those given in the *.txt file that came with SmoothDeinterlacer. My first try with your version did not work so I used the version in the *.txt file of the SmoothDeinterlacer documentation and it worked. Then I went back to your version and got it to work just as you had it except I had to drop the line about convert to RGB otherwise I got a blank black screen in TMPGEnc. Is this because I had DVD2AVI set to RGB instead of YUV? Should I be using YUV instead? I just read recently that when using TMPGEnc you will get better results using RGB over YUV when using DVD2AVI. I'm not sure if that comment I read was a speed issue or quality issue or both. I did YUV for the movie and altough it looks very good converted to NTSC (and I am happy with it) I did notice that compared to the original PAL DVD that my conversion was both brighter and slightly less colorfull ... but still more than acceptable (especially after tweaking the contract/brightness and color of the TV I was using).

Anyways now I think I understand what you were talking about before ... I think ... there is a way to convert a progressive PAL source in the same way (using the same AVS script?) so that the video matches the original PAL and therefore requires no funky audio stuff. Right?

OK it's late and I need to be in bed ...

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I did the clip twice with both your settings and the other settings as in the *.txt file that came with SmoothDeinterlacer ... results? ... both look the same to me except that your clip looked ever-so-slightly sharper (probably the difference in BiCubic vs Lanczos). The image quality in terms of deinterlacing seemed to be the same. Your settings though produced a file of 72.2MB whereas the other settings produced a file of 74.4MB (short trailer) which I thought was interesting since I encoded both with 7000kbps CBR mode in TMPGEnc and both were using the same AC-3 audio track. Perhaps the Bicubic vs Lanczos again?

Cheers!

[Faustus]

This thread is overfilled with good info . I highly suggest writing not just a guide on how to do this, but you have alot of info about the differences in general that should be in there somewhere. I might be attempting a project to convert an imported copy of Threads soon, this should hlep alot.

[FulciLives]

Hello

Hey Xesdeeni

Just wanted to let you know that I used the same AVS script intended for INTERLACED PAL (25fps) to NTSC (29.97fps) with a PROGRESSIVE PAL (25fps) DVD source.

The end result looked just as good (on my standard defination interlaced TV) as the other method (creating a progressive 23.976fps NTSC from a progressive 25fps PAL source).

I kinda like this method in that I did not have to due any audio conversion since the converted video matches the original audio.

For those without a progressive TV display (in other words you don't mind if the converted copy is interlaced) then I would say this method (creating a 29.97fps NTSC with unaltered original PAL source sound) is really the way to go.

As I said you couldn't really tell the quality apart on a standard defination interlaced TV

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
Say ams30gts how did your audio conversion go? Hope it went well and you now have a DVD made

[Xesdeeni]

@DJRumpy

Xesdeeni, I haven't seen you post in a while...

Real life sometimes gets in the way of the fun things

Just as an fyi, the frame rate conversion in BeSweet does a timestretch. I will compress, or expand your audio to meet the new framerate. It does not speed up, or slow down your audio (ala AssumeFPS in AVISynth). This avoids the change in pitch. It also takes a hit in quality, although I've never noticed it.

Is that a new thing? I did audio conversions with BeSweet for test before I ever put my page up the first time, and there was definitely a pitch shift. And since the process required two passes when converting between VCD/SVCD and DVD (BeSweet wouldn't convert the sample rate and speed at the same time), I opted to just use AVISynth's conversion (see the old version at http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConversion/StandardsConversion-1.html).

Xesdeeni, the Farscape episodes used a 25fps to 29fps conversion. Created a weird telecine pattern, which was somewhat difficult to undo. I'd rather work on telecined 23.976 fps

Yeah, 25 progressive to 29.97 interlaced ends up with something like a 3:2:2:3:2:3:2:2:3:2:3:2:2:3:2:3:2:2:3:2:3:2:2:3:2 pulldown . Plus, it's not slowed down to 24.975, so this cycle is broken every now and then to compensate for the .025 fps drift.

if the authors were that worried about it, they should have shot in both framerates, although that would be expensive. Otherwise, I don't think they have no room to complain if they want their 'art' viewed in NTSC, and PAL land.

I think the point of the link above was that no-one told the director that this type of conversion was going on, so he didn't get to make a conscious choice at all.

Last but not least, be careful of the aspect ratio reading in DVD2AVI. I've run across many old 'widescreen' versions of old DVD movies that were actually encoded in 4:3 letterboxed, but sold as widescreen. Sometimes you just have to verify that what you see is what you get. Since I've got my widescreen TV, these are a dead giveaway. You can always crop the 4:3 letterboxing off to restore it to true 16:9.

Yeah, there is a group of extremely cheap (<$7 at Wal-Mart) movies on DVD that sin in this area. They have The Great Escape and not only is it letterboxed, but the encode is absolutely horrible. I am not exaggerating by saying that almost anyone on this site or Doom9 would have done a much better quality conversion.

@FulciLives

That sounds like the ESS chip (at least I think that is the name of it). This is the chip used in most APEX/DAEWOO/SAMPO players and it always screws up the aspect ratio when doing PAL to NTSC conversion. If the original is 4:3 (full screen or widescreen) it will squash the image making everyone look too short and fat but if the original is 16x9 enhanced then it does the opposite and stretches the picture so that everyone is too tall and thin.

Yes, I forgot to mention that anamophic transfers would be too tall and thin, since the letterbox conversion was already used up by the standards conversion.

Xesdeeni wrote:
I think the two best approaches for progressive are to slow to 23.976 fps and telecine (with the appropriate audio conversion), or to telecine directly from the 25 fps. It was the latter technique that I was wondering if you'd tried. For interlaced, I think the technique I've posted using a smart deinterlacer works incredibly well.

When you say "It was the lattre technique that I was wondering if you'd tried" I am not sure exactly what technique you are talking about. Is this on your website? Is it the same as the process of going from 25i to 29.97i as per your website?

I haven't posted going from 25p to 29.97i without changing the speed yet. The process I would use is similar to 25i to 29.97i, but without SmoothDeinterlacer. As I mentioned, the technique I've posted uses WSOLA, and I'm having so many problems with that program (and I won't be getting a chance to work with it for quite a while), that I wanted to replace it. I originally did the speed change using AVISynth to resample, but I didn't like the pitch shift, which is why I searched for and found WSOLA. I don't want to go back to the pitch shift, so I was wondering how the reception for a conversion that didn't change the audio at all would be.

Of course, if what DJRumpy says above is true, then this may all be moot.

I tried to convert the trailer on the PAL DVD but unlike the movie the trailer appears to be interlaced.

In fairness, your trailer is probably not entirely interlaced. It may have been edited in video, causing the telecine (for PAL, the telecine is normally just a pair of fields showing the two parts of the same frame) to be broken, but the source is progressive, so there will be a lot of progressive qualities. As a result, while the conversion won't be too bad, it won't be quite as good as it would be for truly interlaced video. I only say this so that you don't use the resulting quality of that conversion to judge the 25i to 29.97i conversion.

FulciLives
Posted: May 30, 2003 21:32
FulciLives wrote:
*** NOTE FOR Xesdeeni ***
I still could use some help or pointers or some clarity whatever you want to call it on the PAL (interlaced) to NTSC (29.97fps) method as I can't seem to get it working (see my earlier post).


OK well I figured it out on my own hehehe

I must say that the result looks damn good. I did the trailer to the movie that I encoded earlier however the trailer, unlike the movie, was interlaced (the movie was progressive). So anyways I went ahead and already made my NTSC DVD-R without the trailer but that's ok ... the trailer is very short and sucks anyway.

But the trailer was great for learning the process of converting an interlaced PAL DVD source to NTSC (at 29.97fps)

One thing that surprised me was that the video matches the original audio. THAT is VERY nice.

Yes, that's the huge advantage of 25p to 29.97i (and of course 25i to 29.97i) conversions. The 25p to 29.97i conversion suffers from a bit of jutter on moving scenes, but I think that trading that for leaving the audio alone might be a very worthy tradeoff.

...got it to work just as you had it except I had to drop the line about convert to RGB otherwise I got a blank black screen in TMPGEnc. Is this because I had DVD2AVI set to RGB instead of YUV?

That's a new combination to me. I usually let AVISynth convert to RGB. TMPGEnc uses RGB as an input. Technically, you can feed TMPGEnc YUV and it will convert to RGB. However, it uses a Microsoft-supplied filter to do the conversion. Apparently this filter is broken and does a poor YUV to RGB conversion on some versions of Windows. So I added the ConvertToRGB() in the script to avoid the issue for newbies. I though that if the video was already RGB (as you say you convert in DVD2AVI) that the ConvertToRGB() call would just be ignored (that's what it looks like it does in the source code). So I don't know what to tell you there. Also, when you do the YUV to RGB in DVD2AVI, you have to pay attention to the "PC Scale" and "TV Scale" settings. Since I haven't used this conversion, I can't tell you which to use, but they will affect the contrast (technically the gamma) of the conversion used, so you need to use the correct one.

All I had to do was run the program AC3Delay (a very small and free download I got from the DOOM9 website] to correct the -80 delay in the original PAL 2.0 AC-3 file and mux it (using TMPGEnc) with the M2V file that I created with TMPGEnc. Perfect sync and none of that BeSweet garbage.

To be quite honest, I've never understood where that delay came from or where it is applied. Since I haven't actually converted any DVDs with a delay other than 0ms, I haven't been able to experiment with it. I was operating under the assumption (hope?) that since we were converting the video in a way that would match the original timing, that any delay in the audio that worked with the original video would work with the converted video. But any info you have and could provide would be appreciated.

Just wanted to let you know that I used the same AVS script intended for INTERLACED PAL (25fps) to NTSC (29.97fps) with a PROGRESSIVE PAL (25fps) DVD source.

I hope you removed the SmoothDeinterlacer

For those without a progressive TV display (in other words you don't mind if the converted copy is interlaced) then I would say this method (creating a 29.97fps NTSC with unaltered original PAL source sound) is really the way to go.

Almost all progressive TVs provide their own deinterlacing circuitry, since all the over-the-air video is interlaced, including telecined film. So even though the output is interlaced, the display will most likely be a good progressive image.

Xesdeeni

[DJRumpy]

I've never tried a 25 to 29.97 audio conversion in BeSweet. I assume Xesdeeni's method is using pulldown, meaning the audio length should not change (Xesdeeni?).

(ps. You do realize it's much harder to type Xesdeeni than it is to type ineedseX? )

[shetaan819]

First of all, Fulcilives, thanks for all the help so far....it is seriously nice to know someone out there was actually able to pull off this painful process.

I've been attempting to follow the PAL DVD >> NTSC DVD tutorial on the website you pointed at earlier - http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConv ersion/index.html (standards conversions on the cheap). I hadnt read this forum yet so I'm not sure if my dvd is interlaced or progressive but I've got a few questions -

- In the tutorial it says click the video only option - On my version of TMPGEnc I have two options for video only - should it be ES (video only) or System (video only)?

- If the audio on the DVD, is not surround, would we really have a need for the AC3 file - can we just click the "system and audio" option in TMPGEnc?

- Why not just output to mpg instead of m2v ? - what is the point of outputting to m2v? is it because a program like TMPGEnc cannot read the mpg file and then multiplex it with ac3/wav audio - i was under the impression this was possible so why again should the output be out to m2v?

- What is the avs file doing ?? - TMPGEnc is giving us the option of converting it into NTSC, i dont understand the role of the avs file if TMPGEnc is already doing the job of conversion.

Do most authoring programs read m2v - from what i understood, they can only read .vob, avi, mpg...why again output to m2v?

You'd said "At that point you can either mux the video and audio together (again you can use TMPGEnc to do this using the MPEG TOOLS section) to create a single filename.mpg or if your authoring software can read seperate files better to leave it that way
Using BeSweet you can convert the original AC-3 audio file from 25fps to 29.976fps ... - audio is audio - how can audio be a certain fps, this doesnt make any sense -do you mean it encodes the video with the audio?

Does the AC3 I got from DVD2AVI have to be converted from 25fps to 29.97? or will just converting the ac3 to wav do the same job? - Following this tutorial (http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/9383) i used ac3decgui program for this, is that OK?

Thanks in advance.....im sure these are beginner questions for you now...

[DJRumpy]

- In the tutorial it says click the video only option - On my version of TMPGEnc I have two options for video only - should it be ES (video only) or System (video only)?

ES (video only)

- If the audio on the DVD, is not surround, would we really have a need for the AC3 file - can we just click the "system and audio" option in TMPGEnc?

TMPGenc will produce MP2/MPA audio. This is technically not to DVD spec. If your authoring program accepts this audio, then yes, you could use the output from TMPGenc. Just be aware that it may not play in all players. Worry about this only if you plan for multiple people to view your DVD.

- Why not just output to mpg instead of m2v ? - what is the point of outputting to m2v? is it because a program like TMPGEnc cannot read the mpg file and then multiplex it with ac3/wav audio - i was under the impression this was possible so why again should the output be out to m2v?

I haven't read the guide so I'm guessing at the reason, but most authoring software uses a seperate M2V, and audio stream. If you create multiplexed output (MPG), then the software will just need to demultiplex it into M2V, and Audio anyway.

- What is the avs file doing ?? - TMPGEnc is giving us the option of converting it into NTSC, i dont understand the role of the avs file if TMPGEnc is already doing the job of conversion.

TMPGenc is doing the raw encoding to MPEG. The AVISynth AVS file actaully handles the conversion from PAL to NTSC.

Do most authoring programs read m2v - from what i understood, they can only read .vob, avi, mpg...why again output to m2v?

Yes, most read M2V for input.

As for the audio, it is not locked to the video in such a way, that each frame has it's own audio. Only the video is played back at XX frames per second. You could have any number of frames per second when using a telecine method, and the audio would stay exactly the same. Only when the video is actually sped up, or slowed down, do you see a change in the length of the video, which in turn requires a change in the length of the audio. In other words, 30 frames in a second, is still a second of video. 23.976 frames a second, is still a second of video.

Does the AC3 I got from DVD2AVI have to be converted from 25fps to 29.97? or will just converting the ac3 to wav do the same job? - Following this tutorial (http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/9383) i used ac3decgui program for this, is that OK?

Hopefully Xesdeeni will correct me if I'm wrong. If the video is telecined from 25fps, to 29.97 fps, then the audio does not need to be converted. From the looks of this, it is a telecine process.

[shetaan819]

That definitely answered more than a few questions...but I think I just messed up....My computer has been held hostage for the last two days - its been converting a three-hour long PAL movie into NTSC with the slowest high quality option - and on top of that I've been using the "System (video only)" option - its 68% done right now....should I just stop the encoding anyway and start all over with the "ES (video only)" option?

[Xesdeeni]

I've really got to start making a note of some of these gotchas so I can update my page. DJRumpy took care of a few, I'll try to take care of the others:

...should I just stop the encoding anyway and start all over with the "ES (video only)" option?

Yes. But also try a sample first so you don't have to wait so long again. Just do a CQ encode at some high bit rate (7000kbps or so) during a scene with some static shots and some motion, then burn a DVD*RW to check the results.

TMPGenc will produce MP2/MPA audio. This is technically not to DVD spec.

To pick a nit: MP2 is part of the specification for PAL DVD players, but for some reason it's not for NTSC DVD players. So PAL DVD players are guaranteed to play MP2 audio, while NTSC DVD players aren't, although in practice most do.

I've never tried a 25 to 29.97 audio conversion in BeSweet. I assume Xesdeeni's method is using pulldown, meaning the audio length should not change (Xesdeeni?).

For 25 to 29.97i without changing the speed, the audio doesn't need to be processed at all (no BeSweet). However, if you slow the video down so that the frames are shown at 23.976 fps, you have to slow the audio as well. I'll have to try BeSweet again after DJRumpy mentioned that this conversion doesn't change the pitch.

If the video is telecined from 25fps, to 29.97 fps, then the audio does not need to be converted. From the looks of this, it is a telecine process.

Right. The duration and speed of the video is not being changed, only the frame rate. So the audio does not need to be touched at all.

Xesdeeni

[DJRumpy]

Wait! Don't stop it on account of a wrong multiplex setting. You'll just end up with an MPG, instead of an M2V. No big deal. You can split out the video to an M2V using the MPEG TOOLS in TMPGenc. I wouldn't kill it just for that...

To pick a nit: MP2 is part of the specification for PAL DVD players, but for some reason it's not for NTSC DVD players. So PAL DVD players are guaranteed to play MP2 audio, while NTSC DVD players aren't, although in practice most do.

I agree, but remember this is an NTSC conversion. If you want spec, it would need to be AC3, or PCM. I don't know of any players that won't play an MP2 DVD though, as they often support MP2 for VCD/SVCD. I agree with Xesdeeni. Do MP2, and mess with AC3 only if you want to give this to multiple people, or your just really anal about specs . Even if you did have a big distribution of this to multiple people, chances are you'd be fine with MP2 audio.

[shetaan819]

You can split out the video to an M2V using the MPEG TOOLS in TMPGenc

Could you describe exactly how to do this - I think this is how but I could be wrong - TMPGEnc File->MPEG-Tools Basic Multiplex

[FulciLives]

Hello

Well this thread was rather busy since I checked it last hehehe

I'm now fairly confident that I understand the whole process. I think I will be using the progressive method when possible and the 25i to 29.97i method only when I need to use it (with an interlaced source). For me the audio conversion does not "bother" me for progressive PAL. Seems a shame to ruin a good progrossive source just for the audio. Though I don't have an HDTV/progressive TV display I hope too sooner than latter.

As for the audio it is my understanding that when ripping a DVD to re-encode the delay value for the AC-3 should be corrected to "0" if it originally was not. I've ripped many DVD discs and in my experience maybe only half are set to "0" already (i.e., straight out of DVD2AVI)

I did try the 25p to 29.97i method and it worked rather well but I did leave the SmoothDeinterlacer in the script. I only did a sample clip to see how it would look. It seemed that I got a 3-3 pattern (3 progressive then 3 interlaced repeated). The scene had a lot of motion in it but seemed to play back smoothly. Perhaps I'll try another sample without the SmoothDeinterlacer in the script but like I said if the original PAL is progressive I'd rathre just change the frame-rate to 23.976fps NTSC

I've heard that you can convert an AC-3 file to a WAV and then use some sort of WAV editor (such as CoolEdit Pro) to do the time stretch thing but that it also screws up the pitch. I never could figure out exactly how to do it. Seems like a pain in the ass too since you have to convert to the WAV ... resample/time stretch it ... then encode back to AC-3 or MP2 etc. I don't really have a problem converting 2.0 AC-3 to MP2 if need be but I want to keep 5.1 AC-3 files as 5.1 and the wave method means converting the 5.1 AC-3 to 6 different WAV files ... process each seperately ... then back to a 5.1 AC-3

Blah ... for that I'd rather just use the BeSweet frame rate AC-3 to AC-3 option.

@Xesdeeni
Great website but you should update it and make it more complete. For instance you mention BeSweet's use but don't say how to use it etc. I think we worked out a lot of things here that either were not on the website or were there but were too vague. It is a great resource so I'd like to see you make it even better. Perhaps even submit to this website for the GUIDES section.

OK well that is all for now

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I think you need to give up on that WSOLA thing ... doesn't seem it works too well.

[FulciLives]

You can split out the video to an M2V using the MPEG TOOLS in TMPGenc

Could you describe exactly how to do this - I think this is how but I could be wrong - TMPGEnc File->MPEG-Tools Basic Multiplex

Well ...

To split a single mpeg file (filename.mpg) into a video (m2v) and audio (mp2/mpa) file then you need to use Simple De-Multiplex which of course is under the MPEG TOOLS section in TMPGEnc

- John 'FulciLives" Coleman

[shetaan819]

oOps! sorry, i meant how would you use TMPGEnc to put the m2v file and the audio file together...

[FulciLives]

oOps! sorry, i meant how would you use TMPGEnc to put the m2v file and the audio file together...

Well ...

Again in TMPGEnc you would go to FILE --> MPEG TOOLS and select SIMPLE MULTIPLEX and then select your format ... there are only 2 choices for MPEG2 which is what a M2V file is and the choices are either MPEG-2 Program (VBR) which you use for DVD and the other is for SVCD

Nothing to it!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Xesdeeni]

Seems a shame to ruin a good progrossive source just for the audio. Though I don't have an HDTV/progressive TV display I hope too sooner than latter.

...I got a 3-3 pattern (3 progressive then 3 interlaced repeated).

Whenever you show a "progressive" sequence on an interlaced display, the video is interlaced. The "pattern" you cite above doesn't really exist on the interlaced TV. Fields are drawn sequentially. Your pattern above occurs when you artificially group two successive fields. Instead of grouping 0 with 1, 2 with 3, etc., you could also have grouped 1 with 2, 3 with 4, etc. In fact BOTH patterns will appear on the TV. As field 0 fades out, field 1 is being drawn, so you see 0 and 1. As field 1 fades out, field 2 is being drawn, so you see 1 and 2. And you'll note that no matter which pairs of fields come from the same frame, you will always get one field from one and the other field from the next frame (e.g. if 0 and 1 are from one frame, and 2 and 3 are from the next, your TV will show 1 and 2 at some point). So you will ALWAYS get interlacing, even with a progressive video.

Progressive displays almost all include a deinterlacer. All over-the-air content is interlaced, so this is necessary to provide a progressive display for that content. So your interlaced conversion (25p to 29.97i), run through the deinterlacer of a progressive TV will look progressive, while on an interlaced TV, will be interlaced.

It seems a shame to have to convert audio when you don't have to. The only caveat of not changing the speed, is that on smooth panning shots, there may be some "jutter" or "bump." You'll have to judge whether you find this annoying (and whether you prefer ChangeFPS() or ConvertFPS() to minimize the effect). But for me, it is much less annoying than having to convert the audio AND re-encode the video.

I did try the 25p to 29.97i method and it worked rather well but I did leave the SmoothDeinterlacer in the script.

The process will be MUCH faster without SmoothDeinterlacer for progressive sources.

@Xesdeeni
Great website but you should update it and make it more complete. For instance you mention BeSweet's use but don't say how to use it etc. I think we worked out a lot of things here that either were not on the website or were there but were too vague. It is a great resource so I'd like to see you make it even better. Perhaps even submit to this website for the GUIDES section.

It's very much a work in progress. You'll note that although I link to BeSweet at the top, I don't use it in any of the conversions (yet). As I mentioned above, I'm composing an update with stuff from here and Doom9, so the more specific feedback I get, the better I can make it.

Xesdeeni

[FulciLives]

@Xesdeeni

Just to clarify ...

I took a 25fps progressive PAL source and converted it to NTSC (29.97fps) using the AVS script method "intended" for 25i to 29.97i

I wanted to see if it would work with a progressive source, what the quality would be, would the audio really match without being processed etc.

I found that the quality was very nice (although I left in the SmoothDeinterlacer because, at the time I tried it, I didn't realize it could be removed for a progressive source) and was very pleased that the audio matched up.

I had processed the clip in TMPGEnc (using a wav file converted from the original AC-3 but of course without a frame rate change) I ended up with a single mpeg file with video and MP2 audio muxed.

So I took that mpeg file and ran it through DVD2AVI to get a D2V project file. I opened the D2V in GORDIAN KNOT and looked at it frame by frame.

This is when I saw the 3:3 pattern (3 progressive, 3 interlaced, 3 progressive, 3 interlaced, and on and on).

That seemed kinda strange to me since I am used to a 3:2 pattern (3 progressive and 2 interlaced) when it comes to NTSC.

It did look very nice on my standard defination interlaced TV.

As far as wanting to keep progressive PAL (25fps) as progressive in NTSC (23.976fps) I was under the impression that a progressive source WILL always look better than an interlaced source WHEN you are using a progressive TV display, such as an HDTV display.

I understand that progressive (23.976fps) and interlaced (29.97fps) sources will look IDENTICAL on an interlaced TV but like I said above I thought that the progressive source will ALWAYS look better on a progressive display.

Am I wrong?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I don't have a progressive TV display (unless you want to count my computer monitor hehehe) but of course I wish I did so this whole line of thinking is ... at least for me ... a look towards the future and wanting the best possible quality not just now but also when I upgrade to a progressive HDTV display.

[Xesdeeni]

I had processed the clip in TMPGEnc (using a wav file converted from the original AC-3 but of course without a frame rate change) I ended up with a single mpeg file with video and MP2 audio muxed.

Since you weren't modifying the audio, you didn't need to process it (but you probably already knew that).

So I took that mpeg file and ran it through DVD2AVI to get a D2V project file. I opened the D2V in GORDIAN KNOT and looked at it frame by frame.

I typically open the AVISynth script in VirtualDub.

This is when I saw the 3:3 pattern (3 progressive, 3 interlaced, 3 progressive, 3 interlaced, and on and on).

That seemed kinda strange to me since I am used to a 3:2 pattern (3 progressive and 2 interlaced) when it comes to NTSC.

3:2 pulldown (telecine) is for 23.976 fps to 29.97i fps. But you are converting 25 fps to 29.97i fps. There should definitely be a different pattern. Your observed 3 progressive/3 interlaced sounds right, although after a few repeats, the pattern should break, since 25 isn't an even multiple of 29.97.

As far as wanting to keep progressive PAL (25fps) as progressive in NTSC (23.976fps) I was under the impression that a progressive source WILL always look better than an interlaced source WHEN you are using a progressive TV display, such as an HDTV display.

"It depends on what your definition of 'is' is." Certainly a progressive video can look better than an interlaced one. But that depends on what you are comparing. When compiling a DVD, you could encode 30p fps or 30i fps (yes, you can also do 24p fps, but you'll agree that 30p fps would look better if the source was shot that way, so let's compare 30's). If your video has little motion, you may find that the 30p fps looks better. But if you are shooting a sporting event, you will notice the 30i fps will look smoother. That's because there are 60 "instants of time" being shown, so motion is smoother. The 30p fps might look better with little motion, which is where the interlacing artifacts might show up worse.

If you feed a 30i fps image to a progressive TV, the TV will deinterlace it to 60p fps. It won't be quite as good as it would have been if the video had originally been shot at 60p fps, but it will be much better than the 30i fps on a regular TV.

But the more important thing is that it will almost certainly look better than the 30p fps you could have chosen. The reason is that the TV will only be able to show 30p fps with a 30p fps source. It can't figure out what to put between the 30 frames you provide, so it will duplicate them. But if you had provided 30i fps, it could have used the information in the 60 fields to construct 60 whole frames.

Xesdeeni

[Bluesilo]

Ive been to these posts quite a few times before so now ive got a new project

I have a movie trailer and its encoded in

4 : 3
20 fps
PAL
Interlaced

I want to try to convert it to

4 : 3
NTSC Standard 24 fps
Interlaced

Can I convert it with only video equal to 20 fps?

[Bluesilo]

Nvm bout the 20 fps

Once I output to d2v and load into Dvd2Avi again it reads 25 fps

Anything special I have to do for interlace PAL to interlace NTSC

I believe the file is svcd not sure....its a trailer so

[illini19]

I don't know if this will help but I have taken multiple SVCD's (PAL) to DVD (NTSC) and here's how.

FOR MULTIPLE SVCD's PAL (480x576) to NTSC DVD

-Took .cue/.bin to make MPG's
-Used TMPG to join clips together to make one MPG
-Exported the WAV from the "fullmovie" MPG
-Loaded in DVD2AVI and "save project as" (couldn't load mpg in TMPG for some reason)
-Loaded .dv2 into TMPG and unlocked template
-Encoded as video only at 352x480, pulldown, 23.976 fps, do not frame rate conversion checked
-Took WAV file and loaded into BeSweet and converted from PAL to NTSC and to .mp2 (have done ac3 as well)
-Loaded .m2v and .mp2 into Maestro and authored DVD.

Everytime it has worked like a champ.

A side note question I have is:

Since the SVCD source is 480x576 (PAL), I have always re-encoded to 352x480 rather than 720x480 (NTSC), to fit more on DVDR at higher bitrate.

My question is, is that what you all would do, go down to 352x480 rather than 720x480? I'm guessing there would be some quality loss if going up in resolution (work too much with photoshop)?

Hope this helps and interested to find out about resolution change.

[Bluesilo]

Yea I think I could do it that way but I want to try using AVISynth so if anybody can help me out ....current AVS script


LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth2\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth2\SmoothDeinterlacer.dll")
MPEG2Source("C:\Documents and Settings\*****\Desktop\Test.d2v")
SmoothDeinterlace(doublerate=true)
LanczosResize(480,480)
ChangeFPS(23.976) # Frame Conversion
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,1,2)
Weave()
ConvertToRGB()

Im trying to take an interlaced PAL svcd and convert to NTSC FILM svcd using AVIsnyth

[FulciLives]

Im trying to take an interlaced PAL svcd and convert to NTSC FILM svcd using AVIsnyth

You can convert a PAL progressive source to either progressive NTSC (23.976fps) or interlaced NTSC (29.97fps)

BUT

You CANNOT convert an interlaced PAL source to progressive NTSC (23.976fps)

An interlaced PAL source can only be converted to interlaced NTSC (29.97fps)

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
There probably IS a way to do it but it would require some sort of deinterlacing that would ultimately degrade the image. Better to go with interlaced NTSC than deinterlaced reduced quality progressive NTSC.

[illini19]

You CANNOT convert an interlaced PAL source to progressive NTSC (23.976fps)

An interlaced PAL source can only be converted to interlaced NTSC (29.97fps)

Why?

I have never had a problem with PAL SVCD to NTSC DVD (pretty much same as DVD to DVD). Sometimes I had no idea if the source was interlaced or progressive. I am gaining a better visual prospective of the whole thing, but when you load the source in TMPG, it should list your source settings but it is NOT always correct. I sometimes try encoding both ways, non vs interlaced. Can't really tell the difference, but you tell me. I'm always willing to learn something new everyday.

In addition, any suggestions on my post about resolution (3 posts above)?

Thanks