How many dropped frames is too many?

[txpharoah]

1 is too many.

Dropped frames is due to many issues, not JUST because of CPU, or JUST because of the capture card, or JUST because of other reasons stated:

Give this post a good read:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157660

[RoopeT]

Nope, you're wrong -- it is very easy to get zero dropped frames IF you are willing to do some commonsense things.

This depends very much on what you're capturing. If you try to capture a 10-15 years old VHS that has been copied for 10 times dropping frames really isn't avoidable (I once got 12000 dropped frames in an hour capture, THAT was too many dropped frames). A few hundred dropped frames doesn't matter IF the sound stays in synch. A few thousand dropped frames is already probably too many, even if you don't have synch promlems.

PS. I have no problems capturing without dropped frames from analog TV broadcasts. I'm also using a SVHS VCR with built-in TBC

[ronnylov]

I use AVI_IO when capturing.

I is supposed to drop frames to keep audio in sync with video. So the dropped frames is caused by the software with a purpose, it's not a failure.

[i_am_dave]

I can't believe it's taken this long for someone to point out this excellent point.
The level of dropped frames is more than likely as a result of the source.

Yes Will,
I agree with you. If you are capturing say a very bad VHS tape, you will drop frames unless your capture device is very good.
Whenever I am capturing content from my Canon ZR30, I can expect about 7 frames every hour. I don't know why, even using new tapes and capturing footage shot by the camera itself, always around 7 frames.

However, when I capture from my ADVC-100, 0 frames dropped, even when I capture a four hour segment. I have even captured crappy VHS extended play using the ADVC-100 with no lost frames. I've even had a couple of TMPGEnc sessions encoding in the background while capturing from this device with no dropped frames!

Same system, same software, only thing different is the device on the other side of the wire.

Maybe I am too much of a perfectionist, but I REALLY like to see a 4 hour capture finish with 0 dropped frames.

A dropped frame is kind of like having a random misfire in your car. The car runs OK, but you are always listening for the mis', wondering what is causing it, and wondering when it will leave you sitting on the side of the road.

[rhegedus]

I can fully appreciate peoples incredulity at those who think 1 dropped frame is 1 too many - I even question myself when I stop a capture for the same reason.

But if your system is capable of 0 dropped frames, why settle for less? Capturing again isn't a problem, just set it up and go for a coffee etc - you can even do it overnight as most capture software can be set to stop after a certain time.

Why go to these lengths? Well, as pointed out before, if you've dropped frames you can't tell where they've been dropped or how noticeable they are untill you review the capture. With 0 dropped frames you don't have to check anything because you know it's all there. Seems like a pain at the time but it might well save time in the long run.

[Blkout]

I can fully appreciate peoples incredulity at those who think 1 dropped frame is 1 too many - I even question myself when I stop a capture for the same reason.

But if your system is capable of 0 dropped frames, why settle for less? Capturing again isn't a problem, just set it up and go for a coffee etc - you can even do it overnight as most capture software can be set to stop after a certain time.

Why go to these lengths? Well, as pointed out before, if you've dropped frames you can't tell where they've been dropped or how noticeable they are untill you review the capture. With 0 dropped frames you don't have to check anything because you know it's all there. Seems like a pain at the time but it might well save time in the long run.

Well, when you can spot 1 dropped frame out of 45,000, I'll be impressed. No matter how you try to spin it, its ludicrous to recapture because of 1 dropped frame.

And for your info, no system is capable of 0 dropped frames everytime, if the VHS tape is in poor condition, I don't give a sh*t how good your system is, your going to drop some frames.

[mkelley]

And for your info, no system is capable of 0 dropped frames everytime, if the VHS tape is in poor condition, I don't give a sh*t how good your system is, your going to drop some frames.

Okay, I stood by for your name calling, but I can't stand by for this: you, sir, are full of crap.

I've captured literally hundreds of hours of crappy VHS tapes that don't even hold vertical sync with a TBC attached and never dropped a frame. Not one, not ever. Some of this stuff was the worst stuff imaginable -- it had been rerecorded many times at the slowest possible speed and made the first video images from the moon look like broadcast quality.

As another poster here mentions, you need to have quality equipment and setup (although my capture setup cost less than $300) but it not only is possible to have zero frames dropped, it is quite common among those of us willing to do the proper procedures.

You must stop speaking about things for which you truly know nothing about.

[flaninacupboard]

would i re-capture for one dropped frame? no. would i ever lose a frame on my ADVC-50? no. that's not insanity, that's just a fact.
1 dropped frame is too many.

[rhegedus]

Well, when you can spot 1 dropped frame out of 45,000, I'll be impressed. No matter how you try to spin it, its ludicrous to recapture because of 1 dropped frame.

And for your info, no system is capable of 0 dropped frames everytime, if the VHS tape is in poor condition, I don't give a sh*t how good your system is, your going to drop some frames.

Well, it's been stated by others in this thread that 1 frame drop can be noticeable if it's during a motion scene, so be impressed.

As for not being able to get 0 dropped frames with a poor VHS, try a little harder. Don't bad mouth others just because you or your system are not capable of better.

[txpharoah]

I never drop frames, even on my crappy backup card (Aver card). My system specs are in my profile, so feel free to read up. Dropped frames is often the user's fault, with few exceptions.

Again, I repeat, read this post:
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=157660

I've restored some of the worst homemade videos, and never drop frames on any of my systems. HOWEVER, the source DOES affect SOME capture cards when it comes to dropped frames. I have worked on a MATROX card that can drop because of bad source, so while uncommon, it can happen, and even then it is under 10 per hour. Could I notice? Well, since it was not pro video source or even decent consumer video source, no. The footage that usually causes such errors is lucky to be on DVD in the first place. It is usually so destroyed that it takes SVHS machines, TBCs, and time and know-how to correct to even be watchable again, so a few dropped frames is not noticed.

[rsuave5]

doesnt matter if i can detect them or not to me a dropped frame is an issue that shouldnt be happening. if i see even one i freak. to me its a matter of doing it correctly or not, and a dropped frame means im capturing incorrectly.

just becaause youve used something for a while and you are satisfied with the results doesnt meaa you cant tweak settings or try another program, the fun lies in trying to perfect something that is perpetually imperfect . now if i capture an hour and lose 2 frames i dont delete and try again but i do search high for the cause and try to remedy it as the goal is to capture with no dropped frames.

everyone has different tolerances as far as what they will accept in regards to their video quality. my tolerances are low and i like to look as best i can some of you dont mind some imperfections, thats fine

your wrong im right

[Blkout]

And for your info, no system is capable of 0 dropped frames everytime, if the VHS tape is in poor condition, I don't give a sh*t how good your system is, your going to drop some frames.

Okay, I stood by for your name calling, but I can't stand by for this: you, sir, are full of crap.

I've captured literally hundreds of hours of crappy VHS tapes that don't even hold vertical sync with a TBC attached and never dropped a frame. Not one, not ever. Some of this stuff was the worst stuff imaginable -- it had been rerecorded many times at the slowest possible speed and made the first video images from the moon look like broadcast quality.

As another poster here mentions, you need to have quality equipment and setup (although my capture setup cost less than $300) but it not only is possible to have zero frames dropped, it is quite common among those of us willing to do the proper procedures.

You must stop speaking about things for which you truly know nothing about.

Truly know nothing about? Fuuny you should say that since I run a business where I do back-ups and conversions for people. I guess you just know more than everyone else though. How does it feel to be all knowing? Do most people call you God or Jesus?

And for the record, I have a TBC too, good try though, I know you figured you would get me with that one since most people don't have them. They do improve things considerably, but 0 dropped frames is simply not possible on all VHS conversions. If you have had 0 dropped frames on all your VHS conversions, then you just haven't run across a tape in poor condition yet.

Its you my friend who doesn't know what they are talking about. When you get more experience, come back and we'll discuss this again.

[rhegedus]

....but 0 dropped frames is simply not possible on all VHS conversions. If you have had 0 dropped frames on all your VHS conversions, then you just haven't run across a tape in poor condition yet.

OK, one last time............

Just because you cannot get 0 dropped frames, it does not mean that it is not possible. And if you're in the 'business' of backups and conversions, then you should try a little harder to keep other peoples' memories as good as they can be.

[WeBe]

Blkout, you're a hardheaded person. If you don't agree with something, don't start people calling names.

It's surely possible to get 0 dropped frames, so you shouldn't settle for less. If you're satified with some dropped frames, fine. But people are not stupid when they recapture because they can do better.

Besides, you should consider that there is NTSC and PAL. So, not seeing dropped frames in NTSC doesn't mean that the same amount of dropped frames is not noticed in PAL.

As for poor quality of VHS: I have homevideos which are 23 years old (yes, I bought one of the first 'portable' VHS-camera's). Needless to say that quality in that time wasn't as good as nowadays. Even made copies that time which were noticeably of poorer quality. I've captured en reauthored all that material. Never lost any frame.

It surprises me that you tell you run a business and settle for less than the best. If you're making backups, I suppose you don't mind losing a bit once in a while? Wouldn't trust my material to your business...

Wim.

[Blkout]

Well, when you can spot 1 dropped frame out of 45,000, I'll be impressed. No matter how you try to spin it, its ludicrous to recapture because of 1 dropped frame.

And for your info, no system is capable of 0 dropped frames everytime, if the VHS tape is in poor condition, I don't give a sh*t how good your system is, your going to drop some frames.

Well, it's been stated by others in this thread that 1 frame drop can be noticeable if it's during a motion scene, so be impressed.

As for not being able to get 0 dropped frames with a poor VHS, try a little harder. Don't bad mouth others just because you or your system are not capable of better.

LOL, not capable, don't even try to go there, I'm sure my system is far better than yours without a doubt. I've said this before and I'll say again, if you have never had dropped frames from a VHS recording then you have not seen a poor quality VHS tape. Don't get mad, its a fact.

[Blkout]

Blkout, you're a hardheaded person. If you don't agree with something, don't start people calling names.

It's surely possible to get 0 dropped frames, so you shouldn't settle for less. If you're satified with some dropped frames, fine. But people are not stupid when they recapture because they can do better.

Besides, you should consider that there is NTSC and PAL. So, not seeing dropped frames in NTSC doesn't mean that the same amount of dropped frames is not noticed in PAL.

As for poor quality of VHS: I have homevideos which are 23 years old (yes, I bought one of the first 'portable' VHS-camera's). Needless to say that quality in that time wasn't as good as nowadays. Even made copies that time which were noticeably of poorer quality. I've captured en reauthored all that material. Never lost any frame.

It surprises me that you tell you run a business and settle for less than the best. If you're making backups, I suppose you don't mind losing a bit once in a while? Wouldn't trust my material to your business...

Wim.

And if you've made as many copies as I have, you'd know that you can't see a few dropped frames. Obviously your less experienced and I have no problems with that. The day you run across a tape that gives you a few dropped frames and there is nothing you can do to correct it, you'll look back and know I was right. Its ok though, I know your stubborn and would like everyone to think your system is high and mighty and never drops a frame, if that makes you feel better abour yourself, then go ahead and boast, I'll I'm saying is that it is possible to drop a few frames on very poor copies of VHS and its not possible to see the difference if its only a few frames as long as they are not all back to back in a 1-2 second time period or so. Are you even aware of how long a 2 hour capture is? Do you know how many frames that is? Your talking about well over 200,000 frames and your going to tell me you can see 3 of 4 frames dropped? Total BS! Just the facts, just the facts.

[Blkout]

doesnt matter if i can detect them or not to me a dropped frame is an issue that shouldnt be happening. if i see even one i freak. to me its a matter of doing it correctly or not, and a dropped frame means im capturing incorrectly.

just becaause youve used something for a while and you are satisfied with the results doesnt meaa you cant tweak settings or try another program, the fun lies in trying to perfect something that is perpetually imperfect . now if i capture an hour and lose 2 frames i dont delete and try again but i do search high for the cause and try to remedy it as the goal is to capture with no dropped frames.

everyone has different tolerances as far as what they will accept in regards to their video quality. my tolerances are low and i like to look as best i can some of you dont mind some imperfections, thats fine

your wrong im right

Well, I'm very sorry your obsessed with capturing a few frames that you'll never see. I guess if you have the free time on your hands then by all means go ahead, its just stupid and one of these days when you get a life you'll realize just how stupid it is. I am just trying to inform you that you'll never see the difference, but if your looking for something you'll never see, I wish you the best of luck. You might consider seeking help for your issues.

[rhegedus]

LOL, not capable, don't even try to go there, I'm sure my system is far better than yours without a doubt. I've said this before and I'll say again, if you have never had dropped frames from a VHS recording then you have not seen a poor quality VHS tape. Don't get mad, its a fact.

Yeah, that's right - everyone here who says that they can get 0 dropped frames even with shitty VHS tapes is wrong and you're right.

There's no point in continuing this if you're not willing to accept the word of other people on the forum.

[Blkout]

LOL, not capable, don't even try to go there, I'm sure my system is far better than yours without a doubt. I've said this before and I'll say again, if you have never had dropped frames from a VHS recording then you have not seen a poor quality VHS tape. Don't get mad, its a fact.

Yeah, that's right - everyone here who says that they can get 0 dropped frames even with shitty VHS tapes is wrong and you're right.

There's no point in continuing this if you're not willing to accept the word of other people on the forum.

And there are others in this same thread with more experience than yourself that have said that it is possible to drop frames with poor tapes. Don't try to single me out, there have been quite a few posts in this thread already saying the exact same thing I've been saying, poor tapes CAN lead to dropped frames and a few dropped frames IS NOT noticeable on playback. Go back and read all the posts in this thread.

[rhegedus]

And there are others in this same thread with more experience than yourself that have said that it is possible to drop frames with poor tapes. Don't try to single me out, there have been quite a few posts in this thread already saying the exact same thing I've been saying, poor tapes CAN lead to dropped frames and a few dropped frames IS NOT noticeable on playback. Go back and read all the posts in this thread.

Is that so? If you had read all the posts you'd have found four others (apart from myself) who get 0 dropped frames, even with shitty VHS tapes:

However, when I capture from my ADVC-100, 0 frames dropped, even when I capture a four hour segment. I have even captured crappy VHS extended play using the ADVC-100 with no lost frames.

I've captured literally hundreds of hours of crappy VHS tapes that don't even hold vertical sync with a TBC attached and never dropped a frame. Not one, not ever. Some of this stuff was the worst stuff imaginable -- it had been rerecorded many times at the slowest possible speed and made the first video images from the moon look like broadcast quality.

I never drop frames, even on my crappy backup card (Aver card). My system specs are in my profile, so feel free to read up. Dropped frames is often the user's fault, with few exceptions.....I've restored some of the worst homemade videos, and never drop frames on any of my systems.

As for poor quality of VHS: I have homevideos which are 23 years old (yes, I bought one of the first 'portable' VHS-camera's). Needless to say that quality in that time wasn't as good as nowadays. Even made copies that time which were noticeably of poorer quality. I've captured en reauthored all that material. Never lost any frame.

One even has an AIW capture card similar to your own - maybe you could get a few tips on how to get it to work properly........... but then again, that would mean having to admit you're not as good as you think you are. Sorry about that...........

Oh and while we're here, the main difference between our systems is the capture card. You might want to read about these before you go any further.

ATI All In Wonder 9700 PRO

Canopus ADVC-100

[mkelley]

Rob,

Don't try an educate him -- he's ignorant and proud of it <g>. He reminds me of my wife when she says "Hey, don't confuse me with the facts."

(And if he's running a business doing this.... well, there are an awful lot of folks who think they know something about computers and video working at Best Buy. LOL. Now I know what they do when they're not giving out bad advice :>)

I'll leave this thread -- while it's providing me with a lot of laughs I have to remember not to make fun of the handicapped. See the rest of you on the other discussions.

[rhegedus]

Good thinking

Until the next time.............

[fbreve]

My 2 cents:

- If you capture are using a soundcard to capture audio it's almost impossible to not drop frames since it's needed to keep audio/video sync (remeber that video and audio capture devices have different clocks). So people who has devices like Pinnacle DC10 (like me) just can't have 0 dropped frames without losing sync.

- Each card has different tolerance for bad video material, some will lose frames in every minor imperfection, some will hardly lose a frame even with very bad material, and althought I never see one I believe some cards will never lose a frame at all.

- Some (bad) software doesn't report frames dropped to keep audio/video sync and some (even worse) software doesn't sync audio/video at all.