Can we convert an NTSC DVD to PAL DVD-R without re-encoding?

[boathouse]

Is it possible to convert an NTSC DVD to PAL DVD-R without re-encoding the video?

I've converted NTSC DVD's to DivX using a program called DVD2AVI and the 'force film' option. This works for DVD's that have not been created using 'true NTSC', it simply frame serves the video at a different rate, in that case 23.976 fps.

My understanding is that the majority of NTSC DVD's do not really have their video stored at 29.97fps. The player converts the video to that rate on the fly during playback... (hence the work-around of 'force film' above)

So if I rip an NTSC DVD to my hard drive, is it then possible to modify the vob/mpeg headers to instruct the dvd player to playback at 25fps? Then author the vobs etc back to DVD-R...

[FulciLives]

Whoa Partner !!!

First of all, what you say is impossible.
Secondly, if you convert a DVD to a DivX then you are encoding or re-encoding if you will (original DVD mpeg2 format to DivX format).

The "problem" with PAL to NTSC is not only frame rate changes but also the fact that a PAL DVD has a resolution of 720x576 whereas a NTSC DVD has a resolution of 720x480

So not only do you have to change the frame rate but you also have to re-size the video from 720x576 to 720x480 not to mention the audio must also be processed to fit the change in fps from 25 (PAL) to 24 (NTSC).

So you need to use DVD2AVI to create a d2v project file and demux the AC-3 audio. Then create an avs file to read into your mpeg2 encoder (I use TMPGEnc) to convert the video ... hence your encoding step.

You need BeSweet and the BeSweet GUI to convert the AC-3 file. The BeSweet GUI has built-in pre-sets for going from PAL speed to NTSC speed. You can go from AC-3 to AC-3 or you can go from AC-3 to a WAV file. If you do a WAV you can then feed that audio file into TMPGEnc while you are encoding the video and it will create a DVD compliant MP2 sound file. The decision to stay AC-3 or go to WAV then MP2 depends on the DVD authoring software you will be using. Most don't accept AC-3 sound while all of them will accept MP2 sound.

Sorry but there is no way around re-encoding it to a new mpeg2 video file.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
You might find this website helpfull
http://www.geocities.com/xesdeeni2001/StandardsConversion/

Please note that a PROGRESSIVE PAL (25fps) video source will translate well to PROGRESSIVE 23.976fps NTSC video. I have not been able to get an interlaced PAL source to translate well to NTSC but I only just discovered that website link today and it seems to have a method to do that. Just remember that DVD2AVI will almost list ALL PAL sources as interlaced so don't rely on it. I usually open the d2v in Gordian Knot and play it back there (frame by frame). Easy that way to tell if it is progressive or interlaced.

*** EDIT ***
OK. I screwed up. Give me break. It's 5:30am here
I wrote up a conversion for a PAL to NTSC process.
But what I said still holds true for NTSC to PAL except it can be even harder to go in that direction. But the basics are the same ... you still must resize (720x480 to 720x576) and change the frame rate of both the video and the audio. Anyways that web site should be a big help in trying to understand the process.

[boathouse]

Thanks for your reply, I will try out some of your suggestions.

I was under the impression that very few Movies or TV are filmed in native NTSC at 29.97fps, and that NTSC DVD's usually store video at 24fps.

The DVD player then performs a 3:2 pulldown during playback to convert the video to 29.97fps on the fly.

Therefore is it not possible to change the headers within the mpeg/vob files to tell the player to "play this back at 25fps" instead of 29?

[rhegedus]

Just rip the DVD to the hard drive with region protection removed and then burn if <4.3G or transcode with DVD2ONE then burn.

https://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=154841&highlight=

[eatin sammiches for lunch]

try DVDPATCHER this will let u patch vob/mpeg header to whatever u want them to be...it will let u change header resolution , bitrate, FPS.

I often use this to change my svcd header to dvd headers to trick an dvd authoring program to accept it so I can author it and burn to a dvd.
when I come in contact with PAL SVCD mpeg I change the resolution/Framerate to NTSC then it plays fine in about 6 different standalones I have tried it in.

so if u wanna change the header use DVD PATCHER.
it will patch vobs also

the site is not in english but the program is

http://kickme.to/DVDPatcher

[FulciLives]

Hello

First of all, poor Rob (please take no offense) must have been half asleep when he typed his response in as it makes no sense here! 8)

As to your question, which I thought I had already answered rather well, the simple truth is NO you can't just change the headers or whatever. That simply will NOT work. As I said the resolution between the two formats is different as is the frame rate of both the video and the audio.

You have to re-encode. As you are doing that process you can resize the video (NTSC 720x480 to PAL 720x576) and adjust the frame rate (NTSC 29.97fps/23.976fps to PAL 25fps). You must also adjust the audio which means that also has to be re-encoded otherwise the audio would be out-of-synch.

Please note that you can buy a stand alone DVD player that will convert NTSC to PAL in real time as it plays back the original. Such DVD players are not very common in the USA but you can find them. I understand such models are very common (or at least much more common than in the USA) in PAL countries.

Of course a properly well done computer conversion will be of higher quality but living in the USA I have a stand alone DVD player that does PAL to NTSC and does so VERY nicely. The few movies I have done on the computer was only so that my friends (who only have NTSC DVD players) could enjoy the movie.

Last but not least a true progressive NTSC DVD (23.976fps) should translate well to 25fps. Even a 29.97fps DVD should translate well if you can do an inverse telecine process (which converts the video from 29.97fps to 23.976fps ... then you can go to 25fps) but a truely interlaced NTSC DVD (a 29.97fps source such as something shot on video or made from a video master) will be the hardest to do since you can't restore the proper 23.976fps without some sort of deinterlacing operation and doing so always reduces the quality. However, you will find that the majority of NTSC DVD discs fall into the first two catagories.

Anyway read that website I gave you in my other post. If you have any further SPECIFIC questions post here and I will try to help.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[rhegedus]

First of all, poor Rob (please take no offense) must have been half asleep when he typed his response in as it makes no sense here! 8)

Which part is causing you problems?

[FulciLives]

try DVDPATCHER this will let u patch vob/mpeg header to whatever u want them to be...it will let u change header resolution , bitrate, FPS.

I often use this to change my svcd header to dvd headers to trick an dvd authoring program to accept it so I can author it and burn to a dvd.
when I come in contact with PAL SVCD mpeg I change the resolution/Framerate to NTSC then it plays fine in about 6 different standalones I have tried it in.

I honestly don't see how this could work!
First of all, if going from PAL to NTSC the image would get a "squashed" look to it making everyone a bit too short and fat looking. If going from NTSC to PAL it would either stretch the image (making everyone a bit too tall and thin looking) or display properly but add extra black either above and/or below the image (which might be acceptable if the image was still in a proper 4:3 ratio).

Another point ... what about the frames per second? I could see how this might work with a PAL source to NTSC but I think you would have a very hard time getting it to work with NTSC to PAL unless the original NTSC source is a true 23.976fps progressive source.

What about the audio? Wouldn't the audio be out-of-synch using this process?

I dunno man I just can't see how it would work ... or at least work WELL.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

*** EDIT ***
TO: ROB

If you read the original post you will see that the question was how to change formats from NTSC to PAL. This is a totally different issue than region code information. Ripping a NTSC DVD to a HDD and then burning it to a DVD recordable WILL make it region free but it will still be a NTSC format disc. So really your comment didn't mean much of anything in light of the question. I figured with as many posts you have acredited to your user account that you knew better but, as I said, were half asleep. I say that as you obviously didn't read the question very well :P

[rhegedus]

*** EDIT ***
TO: ROB

If you read the original post you will see that the question was how to change formats from NTSC to PAL. This is a totally different issue than region code information. Ripping a NTSC DVD to a HDD and then burning it to a DVD recordable WILL make it region free but it will still be a NTSC format disc. So really your comment didn't mean much of anything in light of the question. I figured with as many posts you have acredited to your user account that you knew better but, as I said, were half asleep. I say that as you obviously didn't read the question very well :P

Well, If you'd have read the link I provided you'd have seen that about 98% of PAL systems can handle NTSC format stuff so there really is no need to convert.

As Gregg suggested you do not need to do anything to get these disks to play, other than remove the region protection. A region 0 (all region) NTSC DVD can basically be played on anything.

Obviously all tv's sold in countries which use NTSC will be able to display the signal. Pretty much all Pal tv's are in fact multiscan tv's and will play both PAL and NTSC. Even if your tv does not fall into this category, virtually all dvd players sold in PAL regions can convert NTSC to PAL 60Hz, which again should play on almost all PAL tv's.

There are only like 2% of tv/dvd player combinations in the world which cannot play an all region NTSC DVD.

So...just burn it.

Assuming there is no actual protection getting in the way, any dvd player can play any regional format, the only issue is if the tv can disply the signal it recieves. So no, the fps won't bother the player.

OK guys and gals, here's an update.

Got my Due South Season 1 DVDs from Amazon Canada - Toronto to London UK in 3 days!!!!!!!!!

Ripped, transcoded with DVD2ONE and burned with Nero. Plays beautifully on my JVC XV-S300B DVD player and Philips 28PW6305.

For those about to rip, you don't have to worry about region code for this since Smartripper will remove it for you when it rips.

Now I have one more problem........how to pay for all the Reg 1 DVD's I've ordered!

Once again, thanks for all your help.

Regards,

Rob

[Dennis1968]

Try this trick. I have successfully ripped and converted sereval UK issued DVDs to play on many different US only/ non firmware upgradable DVD players. after ripping the contents to the HD using Smartripper 2.41, i used IfoEdit .95 to remove the region code restriction and replaced the PAL header with NTSC headers. Them Burn them onto a 4.7gb DVD+R. So far have not ran across a DVD player that will not play them. In therory, NTSC to PAL should hav the same result.

[JojoToto]

Try this trick. I have successfully ripped and converted sereval UK issued DVDs to play on many different US only/ non firmware upgradable DVD players. after ripping the contents to the HD using Smartripper 2.41, i used IfoEdit .95 to remove the region code restriction and replaced the PAL header with NTSC headers. Them Burn them onto a 4.7gb DVD+R. So far have not ran across a DVD player that will not play them. In therory, NTSC to PAL should hav the same result.

You need to change PAL header to NTSC header because most ntsc TVs cannot decode PAL, am I right?
But for those in the PAL zone, do you also need to change NTSC header to PAL header?

[Dennis1968]

The TV is not the decoder. All conversions/ decoding happen in your DVD Player. Most Region 1 NTSC Players only has an output to a NTSC device. the conversion from PAL colour scheme to NTSC depends on the chipset in the player. In Theory, the same rule applies going from NTSC to PAL

[Gurm]

Many... not all... and I think it's fairer to say SOME NTSC dvd players will play PAL as well.

MANY PAL players will play NTSC.

But if his won't (and I'm gonna assume it won't or he'd have already done it) then it does get real ugly real fast.

But I've heard a rumor (not tried it myself) that the new Roxio 6 does a whizz-bang job of NTSC->PAL and vice versa. I avoid Roxio like the plague because it's EVIL, but hey...

- Gurm

[JojoToto]

So converting the PAL header to NTSC header is not enough? One still needs a player with a chipset that can decode PAL?

[Jukka]

@Fulci

Did you see my post on converting 23.97fps DivX to DVD? (I've had no answers). If not do you know how I would go about converting that to DVD, the templates in TMPGEnc only have 29.97fps? (my DVD/TV play PAL/NTSC)

Any thoughts,

thanks

J

[Gurm]

Actually the TMPGEnc NTSC DVD template supports 24fps if you select FILM as the content.

Guaranteed that's what the framerate of the source material was. Either that or it was encoded with euro-friendliness in mind (24fps NTSC and 25fps PAL transition much more smoothly back and forth than 29fps NTSC which ends up losing data going to PAL or being jerky coming from PAL).

- Gurm

[Gurm]

So converting the PAL header to NTSC header is not enough? One still needs a player with a chipset that can decode PAL?

Correct.

You can do lots of stuff with headers, but only if the player's chipset supports that stuff.

There's another forum in here for the program SVCD2DVDMPG+, which is especially designed to ease the process of "tricking" DVD players into playing SVCD content. But although it's cleverly written, if your DVD player just won't do 480x480 (and more than a few just will NOT), then you're SOL no matter how good the program is.

No amount of header tweaking will force a DVD player to do something it can't do.

That said, a LOT of DVD players use the exact same chipset here and in Europe. It's a matter of how customized they've been - whether the output will get automatically converted or not.

My Pioneer plays PAL onto an NTSC tv, but it's very jerky unless I patch the headers to say that it's FILM content (23.97fps) NTSC, and then it flips out because it expects a different size than it gets.

- Gurm

[JojoToto]

Can you clarify this for me?

If I put a PAL DVD in a NTSC player (that supports PAL) the output signal is PAL, isn't it? So by twicking the header PAL->NTSC, I'm telling the player to output as NTSC?

[Gurm]

No, it's entirely dependent on the player.

Some players decode PAL and output it as NTSC.

Others decode PAL and output it as PAL.

It varies from player to player.

- Gurm

[Jukka]

@Gurm

So if I select 'Film Movie' in the 'Content of video' drop down on page 2/5 of the project wizard in TMPGEnc+ then that will write a 23.97(24)fps MPEG2 file?

Thanks

Jukka

[JojoToto]

I'm more confused!
Why would rhegedus and dennis1968 want to convert the headers?

[Dennis1968]

The output chipset may be NTSC only but there are many players in the market that are hardcoded to only accept Region 1 and NTSC headers ONLY. I personal have ran acrossed 2 manufactures (Toshiba and Sony). That are this way. If this trick works, Great, if not, you have lost nothing.


Bottom line. No matter what you do to fool the system. it al dpends on the limits and the chipset.

[Gurm]

@Gurm

So if I select 'Film Movie' in the 'Content of video' drop down on page 2/5 of the project wizard in TMPGEnc+ then that will write a 23.97(24)fps MPEG2 file?

Thanks

Jukka

Yes.

[Gurm]

I'm more confused!
Why would rhegedus and dennis1968 want to convert the headers?

There's a school of thought amongst some on here... and I hesitate to say that they're "wrong"...

That so long as it's at least marginally within the DVD spec, you should play header games and just let your hardware sort it out.

Problem is, this school of thought is usually populated entirely by folks whose hardware is good at sorting this stuff out.

I'm not in this school, because my Pioneer can't sort out JACK. Monkey with the headers, and watch it shit itself. It plays damn near everything, but not monkeyed-with stuff. It plays SVCD's, but not SVCD-DVD's. So I always believe in actually fixing the problem.

- Gurm

[Gurm]

The output chipset may be NTSC only but there are many players in the market that are hardcoded to only accept Region 1 and NTSC headers ONLY. I personal have ran acrossed 2 manufactures (Toshiba and Sony). That are this way. If this trick works, Great, if not, you have lost nothing.


Bottom line. No matter what you do to fool the system. it al dpends on the limits and the chipset.

Ayuh. And amongst them, the hardwired chipset manufacturers have a predominant market share.

Alas, we can't all justify dropping another $150 on a Liteon player. Although we CAN dream... *sigh*

- Gurm

[rhegedus]

I'm more confused!
Why would rhegedus and dennis1968 want to convert the headers?

There's a school of thought amongst some on here... and I hesitate to say that they're "wrong"...

Erm............ where exactly did I mention anything about converting headers???

What I said was that 98% of PAL DVD players will play NTSC without having to do anything at all!!!

[JojoToto]

oops, sorry Rob. In Dennis1968's post following yours he mentioned the header change, and my mind got all mixed.

[rhegedus]

No problem.