ADVC100 Captures Too Dark? Try This!

[GreyDeath]

Call me a newb or an idiot, if you've been getting dark captures using the Canopus ADVC 100 like I have, try setting DIP switch #2 to the OFF position. This will set the NTSC to the Japanese and not US version.

Yes, I live in the US, don't ask me, but it looks like it'll work. I flipped the DIP switch while it was on to compare (even though the manual says not to, guess I won't do that again... :P ) and the picture brightened up.

I haven't tried burning the capture to DVD yet to compare to the orginal LD, but it looks promising. Even if it's still not as bright, at least users would still be getting some more detail in the darker tones. (Damn, I'll have to capture the original Star Wars trilogy all over again... )

[GreyDeath]

Darnit.

Okay, after running a raw test (no change or filters) through TMPGEnc and burning it to DVD, the way I thought would work doesn't. The picture is really light now compared to the source LD, and the colors are a bit washed out. In fact, it's pretty much a reverse of the problem I was having before with the dark captures. *sigh*

If anyone else is having capturing issues regarding brightness and would like to share their settings for encoding on TMPGEnc, I'd appreciate it.

For my dark captures with the Canopus 100, I used these color correction settings in TMPGEnc, they seem to get closest to the source material I was using.
Brightness: 6
Contrast: 5
Gamma: 20
Red: -15

Does anyone also know if there are brightness/saturation differences between DV codecs? Maybe it's not the box...

[PlasticDVDr]

Was the capture to dark on your Monitor, or on both your Monitor and TV after encoding to DVD...???

Video captured on to your computer may appear to be to dark, but once converted to DVD, SVCD, or VCD and viewed on a tv it will look fine. This is because of the difference in which a tv displays video compared with how a Computer Monitor displays it...

[GreyDeath]

The captured footage actually appears dark on my computer and darker on my TV when I export it to DVD-R. The reds were also noticablely heightened.

When I switch the ADVC 100 to Japanese NTSC, it's washed out but brighter. At least with that, I can knock it down and get some detail back in the darker areas that the US setting would turn to black. But I've run into another problem where the color has slightly shifted to the green spectrum. Blues have a tinge of green mixed in now. Unforturnately, TMPGEnc doesn't come with a color correction plug in built in. Anyone know where I can get one?

[vhelp]

@ greydeath, and others..

IMO, not a good idea to "Brighten" your .avi files w/ that dip switch route.

In fact, I don't !! ..and I encode w/out color changes too. Yes, when you
burn "some' of your captured (dv transfered) sources to CDR, and play'em
your TV may show some on the darker side. I find this perfectly acceptable.

It's when you brighten that you begin to open a can of warms, as in your
case you discovered it for yourself.

Also, to note, that when you "jimmy" your source (color filter etc) you are
risking magnified artifacts after encoding. That's what happens when you
brighten up your source. Now, based on my many experiences, when I
mess around w/ the color (TMPG) the source quality goes down some.

This is the reason why I say to this day, that no DV can replace the quality
from an Analog Capture device (if all criteria is key)
Your color quality will more than likely produce all kinds of artifacts and at
various levels. Only time will tell (convense) you that I'm right, and that
you will learn, and learn work-arounds.

For those who dare to take the chalenge test.. read on..

Now, as to Analog Capture quality..

Well, All I can say is do youself a test and you WILL see what I mean by
quality vs. artifacts..

* using your ADVC-100, perform your Source to DV (conversion)
* then, do another, but w/ your Analog Capture device of choice, that is,
...if you even still have it in your system.. else you'll never know (and
...understand what I'm talking about here)
* making sure you use any codec other than (huffy; dv; mjpeg)
* some example, BTYUV, or YV12 etc are good ones to use for this capture test

Your TWO Samples..
Assuming your:
* DV is Clip.A and,
* your Clip.B is Analog Capture card of choice

Under TMPG's color filter (Advance TAB) do the following:
* load Clip.A and,
* Set to standard color or any filter that allows you to adjust the
...colors brightness or gamma or contrast.
* Note how each clip's color quality visually looks
.. .. ..
* Then, do he same w/ Clip.B

Now..

Please tell me which one's "color" is:
* Chizeled Looking, (or poorer in quality) and
* which is a Smooth Gradiant, where your color varies on a smooth gradual scale

There you have it. DV is, (in this case lossy) is NO MATCH up against
an Analog Capture card. But, this doesn't mean the ADVC-100 is no good.
I say, it's an un-distructable and flowless device, and I use it EVERY day.
Especially, my many quickies that I do.

This alone will tell you, that for maximum quality projects, like those that
who's source is poor, but that you want to best/maximum quality out of it, you
would use an Analog Capture card for. Hence, my desire to find the best
Analog Capture card out their. And, so far, though I'm still researching this
card, I haven't found any other card that matches or passes the Osprey-210's
performance !! All under my ESC K7S5A / XP 1800+ / Windows 98 (gold) setup.

The only peoples that will understand this are those that have the eye
for detail or level of experience as i have. Beginners will never see
this untill they have developed enough skills under their belt. And, if
they continue to jump over certain aspects of Video processes, they may
never know or understand what I'm talking about.

The above statements are based on my many experiences.. didn't I say this
already ?? hehe..

Well, have a great evening all
-vhelp

[Michelle]

vhelp,

I read your post several times and I'm still confused. Both a capture card and the ADVC-100 accept analog input. In order to store the data it has to be digitised. Are you saying that the ADVC-100 only encodes to DV and that's a problem because it's a lossy codec?

[vhelp]

hi Michelle..

>> Are you saying that the ADVC-100 only encodes to DV and that's a
>> problem because it's a lossy codec?

..Exactly 8)

-vhelp
ps: shucks.., that's not you in avator.. ..za pretty picture though

[GreyDeath]

I do have a capture card, it's an AIW Radeon from a couple years ago. I stopped using it because it 1) dropped frames like crazy (that was on a Dell 600mhz) 2) transfer from video tapes looked, I don't know how to say this...tapey. For tapes of some age, there would be much more distortion from the sides, making the whole picture wavy. The ADVC handles the signal much better than my AIW Radeon. Plus, I like the ease of use, less pressure on the cpu, and the audio lock.

For me, outputting the darker scenes as-is to DVD is not acceptable. Alot of shows that I record have dark scenes and alot of detail gets lost, so much that I lose figures moving in them. And as for showing more artifacts, most of the stuff I record is coming from a Dish Network PVR which has already compressed the signal so much that any additional artifacting from my adjustments is really not noticable.

But I'll take another look at my Radeon now that I've set up my DVD encoding machine. Maybe it'll be good for LD's that I really want to "archive" and be more reliable.

BTW, my setup
Asus A7V333 Raid Mobo
+2100 Athalon
280G harddrive space
256megs PC2700 Ram
AIW Radeon AGP
Canopus ADVC 100
Pioneer 104 DVD Burner

[FulciLives]

SUBJECT: USA NTSC vs Japanese NTSC / PAL

The USA NTSC format assums a black level of 7.5 IRE whereas the Japanese NTSC format assums a black level of 0.0 IRE as does the PAL video format.

Now I don't have a Canopus ADVC-100 (though I am considering buying one assuming I can fit it into my budget) but I understand it has a selectable switch for either 0.0 IRE or 7.5 IRE. If this works the way it SHOULD then any US NTSC signal should be done at the 7.5 IRE setting whereas Japanese NTSC (as well as PAL) should use the 0.0 IRE setting.

Most US model DVD players are set to playback at a black level of 7.5 IRE. The Panasonic stand alone DVD recorders (US models) were having a problem though. They were assuming an input of 0.0 IRE (no switch for the user to select otherwise) so when recording from US NTSC (which is set at 7.5 and not 0.0) the recorder was not setting the black level correctly. The result is that when played back on a standard DVD player with an output IRE setting of 7.5 IRE the picture was very bright and the colors were washed out. If the DVD player could be set to 0.0 IRE (and some US models do have a selectable 0.0/7.5 IRE setting for output) then the recording would look normal ... or at the proper black level (i.e., as in a MATCH to the original source). To make things more confusing some DVD players (mostly Panasonic if not only Panasonic) were automatically adjusting the black level output to 0.0 IRE when they detected a DVD-R or DVD-RAM disc. Panasonic did this to HIDE the error in the recording (obviously they knew that the hardware was doing this). All new models of Panasonic stand alone DVD recorders (so far that includes the released E-50 and the soon to be released E-60 and E-80 etc.) will have selectable IRE input settings ... just like the Canopus ADVC-100.

So any problems with black level that you guys are having is probably from setting the input incorrect and then having the output on the DVD player incorrect. For instance, if you record a US NTSC signal (with 7.5 IRE) at the correct 7.5 IRE setting on the Canopus but then your DVD player is set to output at 0.0 IRE instead of 7.5 IRE then the result would be a dark image. To confuse matters even more a DVD can be mastered at either 0.0 IRE or 7.5 IRE and since most seem to be mastered at 0.0 IRE a lot of DVD players offer this as an option so it is very possible that your DVD player is set to that setting. While this would be fine for playing back properly mastered studio/factory made DVD videos it is not the proper setting for "home-made" DVD-R discs. Many video professionals feel that when a TV display is properly set up (in terms of contract, brightness, color, tint etc.) that the proper output setting for DVD should be 0.0 since that is how commercial studio/factory made DVD videos are usually made. Most people, especially not knowing how to properly set up or fine tune their TV display, often will think this is too dark. I should point out that other than the DVD format I believe all other US video formats (this I know includes at least VHS, LaserDisc and television cable/satelite) will output at 7.5 IRE.

Anyways ...

Try a test ... do a US NTSC clip at the 7.5 IRE setting on the Canopus ADVC-100 and then make sure your DVD player is set to 7.5 IRE upon playback. Again please note that some Panasonic DVD players may automatically set the output to 0.0 IRE which again would result in a dark image so it's best to use a DVD player that has selectable 0.0/7.5 IRE as such units will not (should not) attempt to change the level automatically depending on media type.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I am of course assuming in the above that whatever you capture with the Canopus ACVC-100 will eventually be turned into mepg2 for the creation of a DVD disc be it DVD-R or DVD+R or whatever.

[acanthis]

Just a thought, but you might be missing the obvious. Have you checked your video cabling? I have experienced this problem if I have more than one device connected to the Video Out of a device (for example, a TV and the Canopus at the same time) Probably this is due to the resulting impedance mismatch, or simply the extra load sinking the signal down.

otoh my source is always PAL, so this could be a totally irrelevant piece of advice.

[yg1968]

Fulcilives may be on to something because I haven't experienced this DV darkness with my Sony digital camcorder when converting it to DVD.

[GreyDeath]

I did do some internet reading on the IRE differences you speak of, unfortunately, I can't test the change in IRE because my DVD player (Pioneer DV434) has no setting for IRE 0 or 7.5

I'm running an LD player through the Canopus box and into the computer, no extra cables going off to the TV. So I don't think it's a splitting signal issue. The raw captures from my Canopus box are darker for everything, PVR, VCR, LD, DVD. This is on the US NTSC 7.5 setting.

I can't find anything about what TMPGEnc uses for IRE, probably Japan because that's where it's from. And I use DVD Complete to author, I don't know what that uses, probably the US version.

Heh, what if somewhere along the way, the signal's black level was being dropped from 7.5 to 0 and everything gets shifted down? Seems like that's what's happening to my layman's eye. I use MovieMaker to capture from the box, can it be doing something to the signal?

I did do a capture with my AIW, there was some video jitteryness, and I don't like how the sides have the black space cropped off so it stretches the picture a bit horizontally. But the raw capture to DVD was alot closer to the LD source than my Canopus.

Since noone else is really having a problem with the ADVC100, I can only assume I have a defective box, or something else is mixing up the signal.

[GreyDeath]

If anyone wants to see what I'm dealing with, I've got 2 stills for download at my site. One is from the AIW (swati.bmp) and the other is from the ADVC100 US IRE 7.5 (swcanopus.bmp) Sorry for the large sizes. But if you download them and use a picture viewer, you can see the difference between the 2 captures.

http://www.philipmoy.com/captures/swati.bmp
http://www.philipmoy.com/captures/swcanopus.bmp

[pbemer]

GreyDeath - Looking at the pics, I noticed a tad darker in the Canopus, but compared with the ATI, it looked crisper or clearer. I'd say that the amount of Darkness you're getting, is a trade off.

I have the 100 as well, and the only area where I have brightness issues are black and white movies, which I later modify or correct after the capture.

[FulciLives]

*** UPDATE ***

I did some more research and talked to someone over at the AVS forum and I just wanted to share what I found out ...

In my original post I was correct in-so-far as saying that the Canopus ADVC-100 (and the DataVideo DAC-100) need to be set according to the video source. Again, just to clearify, US NTSC should use the 7.5 IRE setting and everything else (including Japanese NTSC and PAL) should use the 0 IRE setting.

As for playback, as long as you recorded with the correct IRE level, it doesn't matter if your player is set to 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE for playback. True black can be achieved with either setting upon playback as long as the TV is adjusted correctly (contrast, brightness, color, tint, etc.) which is best done with some sort of Test Pattern DVD such as the VIDEO ESSENTIALS DVD or the AVIA GUIDE TO HOME THEATER DVD. I have the VIDEO ESSENTIALS disc but I understand most people these days are using the AVIA disc as it is newer and I believe has even more test signals ... all of which is to help you to properly adjust your TV display (contrast, brightness, color, tint, etc.) to look the best it can.

Some people say that you will get a more true or correct image using a playback black level of 0 IRE instead of 7.5 IRE but apparently any difference is very minor (at best) as long as the TV is set up correctly.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
A msg to GreyDeath ...
I looked at both pictures of your different captures and the difference is very slight (at best) as far as I can see (in regard to overall darkness or brightness). Perhaps you can pick a another shot that is mostly dark since that may make the difference more apparent. But based on the two pics you posted it doesn't appear that the Canopus capture is anywhere near overly dark.

[GreyDeath]

I'll try to get some other darker pics up. maybe something from the saber duel... it's colorful and will hopefully show the overly saturated colors more...

It's true, the pics aren't too far off and they look relatively good on the computer monitor, but when I burn to DVD and compare it to the original LD, it's waay dark and saturated in the reds (it makes it look like everyone's had a bit too much to drink :P )

The way I'm comparing it is by taking my Sony AV Selector box, hooking the LD and DVD players to the inputs and outputting to TV. I then sync up the two sources and play them simutaneously switching back and forth during play and pausing at some scenes to do a more extensive examination.

Then again, the THX LD version of Empire is a bit too light and washed out IMO, maybe I should just let it slide... :P But I'm trying to be faithful to the source.

Someone (yanfali) who's new to the forum and couldn't post yet suggested an analog color corrector from Sima. So you could adjust the brightness etc. before putting it in the ADVC100 and not have to go around with filters and causing more artifacting. Looking at one online (google search "Sima scc") it says it only supports 330 lines of resolution; it does support S-Video, but would we be loosing lines and therefore detail when converting from LD?

[Will Hay]

Man, searching the forum does produce uselful results

Hey John

SUBJECT: USA NTSC vs Japanese NTSC / PAL

The USA NTSC format assums a black level of 7.5 IRE whereas the Japanese NTSC format assums a black level of 0.0 IRE as does the PAL video format.

I was under the impression the IRE switch was irrelevent if capturing in PAL, ie it was unique to NTSC work.
Is this not the case, can anyone confirm this?
As you know John, I'm suffering this (the thread topic) very same problem.
Thanks.
Will

[FulciLives]

Man, searching the forum does produce uselful results

Hey John

SUBJECT: USA NTSC vs Japanese NTSC / PAL

The USA NTSC format assums a black level of 7.5 IRE whereas the Japanese NTSC format assums a black level of 0.0 IRE as does the PAL video format.

I was under the impression the IRE switch was irrelevent if capturing in PAL, ie it was unique to NTSC work.
Is this not the case, can anyone confirm this?
As you know John, I'm suffering this (the thread topic) very same problem.
Thanks.
Will

Well I do live in the USA but everything I have read says that PAL video uses 0.0 IRE BLACK so that is how you should be setting up your CANOPUS ADVC-100

I know in another thread there was talk about DV codecs on the computer and that they might make a difference in the end.

Here is what I would do ...

If you are using TMPGEnc Plus:
There is an option called "Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601"
So I would run the same clip twice with the only change being one time with this option UNCHECKED and then the second time with this option CHECKED. I would burn both test clips (use a DVD-RW or DVD+RW) and compare them on your PAL TV.

If you are using CINEMA CRAFT ENCODER:
Again run the same clip twice with the only change being this ... on one of them check 0-255 and on the other check 16-235 ... again compare on your TV (not the PC monitor) to see which looks more correct.

If you are using the Canopus DV codec on the computer then my understanding is that you should check mark the "Output YUV data as Basic YCbCr not CCIR601" option but I'm not sure if that only applies to NTSC and/or PAL.

As for CCE my understanding is you pick either 0-255 or 16-235 based on the opposite of the source. So if the source is 0-255 then you would pick 16-235 in CCE. I think (stess think) that the Canopus DV codec works best here when you use 0-255 but again I think that is for NTSC so maybe it is different with PAL ... I don't know? Hence the testing part.

All in all it is pretty damn confusing stuff and apparently not all DV codecs work the same as the Canopus DV codec so what might work for one DV codec might not work for another!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Will Hay]

Thanks John, but one thing puzzles me.
How do I force my 'capture' software to use the Canopus codec (during capture)?
I use Pinnacle Studio but have tried DVIO and an't see an option to use anything other than the standard DV codec (whichI'm assuming is the MS one as it's the only codec listed as available for use).
Or have I misunderstood?
Do I need a specific software package to be able to use a specific codec?
One (helpful) chap in another thread suggested scenilizer (or something, bad spelling, can't remember).
Will

[FulciLives]

Thanks John, but one thing puzzles me.
How do I force my 'capture' software to use the Canopus codec (during capture)?
I use Pinnacle Studio but have tried DVIO and an't see an option to use anything other than the standard DV codec (whichI'm assuming is the MS one as it's the only codec listed as available for use).
Or have I misunderstood?
Do I need a specific software package to be able to use a specific codec?
One (helpful) chap in another thread suggested scenilizer (or something, bad spelling, can't remember).
Will

Well you got me there because I don't have the Canopus ADVC-100 nor have I ever captured using a DV codec (I do mostly PICVideo MJPEG captures as I have a PCI TV tuner type capture card).

So I would try ScenalyzerLive (which is in the TOOLS section here) and follow that other person's advice on trying to force the use of the Canopus DV codec. In what way ... if any ... that changes things ... who knows? But since the Canopus ADVC-100 uses the Canopus DV codec internally it makes sense to use the Canopus DV codec on the computer side.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
I have never used ScenalyzerLive as I think it is mostly for (if only for) doing DV captures so ... you are on your own here.

As I've said you are my guinea pig since I too am thinking of maybe getting the Canopus ADVC-100 :P