Am I stupid, or do I just act that way?

[frankandjoan]

This is my first post to a digital video forum. I have experimented with digital video literally for years, and I have yet to successfully produce a full-length video that I could view anywhere but my own computer. It’s tough for me to admit, but clearly I need help.

Briefly………

I started out in DV long ago with the Iomega Buz on a Pentium 2 computer. After beating my head against the wall with IRQ problems for about 6 months, I finally ditched the Buz. I found out later that the motherboard of my Pentium 2 had a hairline crack that gave me frequent intermittent lockups and spontaneous restarts. So I ditched the computer as well.

So I started over with a new Hewlett Packard Pentium 2 and for an A/D converter, I chose the original Dazzle DVC . I could then produce video, but the quality (low resolution capture) was unacceptable to my wife. Beyond that, the accompanying software, Ulead Video Studio 3.0, seemed to destroy my work when it got about 15 minutes long, for a wide variety of reasons. After about two years of frustration, I gave it up altogether.

Earlier this year, we compiled yet more analog tape and digital stills of our 10th vacation, and I decided that the raw tape backlog had become excessive. I had bought a nice computer for my wife, (profile) and I sprung again for another A/D converter and new software. This time, in my infinite wisdom, I chose Adobe Premiere 6.0 and the Dazzle DVC 150 . While clearly I am no expert in DV, I feel I have gained considerable experience in what NOT to do. It is on that basis that I proclaim that the DVC 150 was a POOR CHOICE! Because I am now quite familiar with what a bad situation looks like, and because too much time has passed already, I am bailing on this unit after only three weeks.. Be advised that I have an ax to grind with the Dazzle people, so I am definitely coming from a biased point of view on that topic. While I could expand at length on my problems with Dazzle, in the interest of space I shall instead summarize: Poor resolution, dropping frames, the appearance of interlacing on vertical edges of the video, difficult software, and very poor, no, DISMAL customer support.

I would be VERY GRATEFUL for any advice I can get about what to buy next. Because I don’t own a DVD player or burner, whatever I buy has to be able to capture from and output to my VCR, with regular RCA jacks. That’s why I went back to the Dazzle company for their DVC 150. I looked at the Canopus ADVC 100, but I don’t have Firewire capabilities.

After three disasters in a row, my wife has become skeptical that I can do this DV thing at all, so she has put the brakes on the unlimited spending of more money. I’ll get the $200.00 back from the DVC 150, and I suppose I could squeeze out a LITTLE more money, but probably not another $100.00. Understand that she really wants to do our vacations on DV just as badly as I do, so I can undoubtedly pry the family piggy bank open again if I can have something to show for the money I have wasted up to now. I need some RESULTS for very little money and I need them soon. Then I’ll be able to upgrade.

For these reasons, I am becoming desperate. Is what I need even possible?

[tumbar]

[/quote]I looked at the Canopus ADVC 100, but I don’t have Firewire capabilities.

This is in my opinion the best setup. A firewire card is fairly inexpensive. This setup will work and will solve your problems. I would never be without mine again.

Jim

[frankandjoan]

Problem, Jim. We have two machines, my Pentium 2 and my wifes Athalon 1500 XP. The more powerful computer has only three expansion slots. In those slots are: modem, network interface, and graphics accelerator. I don’t think I could fit a firewire card in my machine, although if that’s the only way, I’ll drop the network interface. Any suggestions?

[VidGuy]

Orange micro has a fairly cheap ethernet/firewire combo card that might solve your problem.

Or look around for another combo card.
Why do you have a modem and a network interface card? If you really need them both you could also pick up a network modem to get rid of the modem card......

For DV - firewire is really the only way to go - be creative, and you'll shoehorn one in there :>)

[frankandjoan]

Thanks to both of you! I’ll try it. I’m sure I can work out the hardware, now I just have to talk my wife into spending more money! (Really, honey, this time it’s gonna work. This is ALL we need.)

[jnk76]

Firewire is a for sure. You would just capture with Adobe and then frameserve into another program to re-encode to VCD, SVCD or DVD format.

[Popee]

You might be able to save about $100 by buying the DAC-100. Although I own the ADVC-100, I understand that the DAC-100 is just as good but (and this too is questionable) lacks the ability to decrypt macrovision. However, from what you are saying, that is not what your objectives are.
I have been converting my old vhs tapes for about a month now, with great success, but firewire is a must. And yes, you can tell your wife it WILL work.

Ron

[frankandjoan]

Wow, thanks for the advice. I wish I had tried this website a LONG TIME AGO. Perhaps these posts will serve as support for getting the bucks released.

[Will Hay]

Frank,
I'd written out the message below and then a thought struck me:
You don't have a digital camcorder, do you?
I think I may be wrong, at least I hope so, but I didn't know analogue camcorders had firewire capabilities.
I haven't seen any with this function in the UK.
How long have you had the camcorder?
If it does, then my post following is fine (just ignore the phrase DV camcoorder ).
Will

Admittedly I don't know much about the Canopus range, only that in every post I've ever read they are superb (more so for VHS to VCD/SVCD/DVD conversions due to their flawless audio/sync issues).
I understand these Canopus things are rather expensive, so wouldn't it make more sense to pick up a firewire card and graphics card with TV-Out?
In this case, you could import using the firewire and export to your VCR with the TV-Out facility of a graphics card.
I'm in the UK so pay a shed-load more than my US friends, but I picked up an Adaptec firewire card and capture/editing software for £29 ($42-ish) and my superb ATI Radeon 64mm DDR ViVo (video in, video out) for £35 ($50) brand new from ebay.
DV via firewire is definately the way to go Frank, it's effortless.
It's taken me over a year to get to the stage I am now, and have only just bought a DV camcorder.
I'd spent what seems like an age with converting anaolgue footage to digital VCD and now dvd, kinda' ironic seeing as though just as I master the process I buy a DV camcorder with firewire and don't have to worry about it anymore.
Saying that I'll always be transferring VHS to DVD so I'm happy with my setup. Hell, I even record directly to the PC from TV/Digital TV now, rather than to the VCR.
Trust me Frank, if you have a DV camcorder and firewire you'll wonder how you ever managed in the past.
Lastly, you don't have a DV camcorder with DV in and out do you?
If so, you can use the camorder to record your edited footage back from your PC, and then export to VHS.
That way, all you need is a firewire card.
Good luck,
Will

[frankandjoan]

First, let me answer your question. My camera is analog, and no, it does not have firewire capabilities. I have had it for about five years.

I appreciate your advice, and if I read it right, what you are suggesting is probably the way my system will evolve, eventually. However, a total revamp of my system, DV camera and firewire card is too expensive to even consider right now, and my wife is not in the mood to tolerate an admission that EVERYTHING I HAVE DONE SO FAR has been either stupid or has become obsolete. The only thing that even comes close to being intelligent and timely is Adobe Premiere 6.0, and now even that is in the sunset mode, with the release of 6.5. I assure you, such an admission would be the end of this hobby for me. We would go back to tape-to-tape dubbing using two VCRs. She has threatened that a number of times already. In her words….“At least it works!“

Besides I have a ton of analog tape right now just waiting to be converted to DV, edited, then printed to either tape or VCD. I must get something at a reasonable price that can convert those to DV, Eventually, we’ll pick up a DV camera, we’ll do two camera shoots of our vacation highlights, (which will be spectacular), and we’ll simply use two separate methods to capture the data from the two cameras to the hard drive. I assume that from that point on, all files are equal.

Beyond that, when the analog camera finally dies, and assuming we like the two-camera shoots, we can either buy another very cheap analog, or a second DV camera, depending on the finances. It’s a good plan you are suggesting, but not practical right this moment.

I have a question, however. The slightly lower price of the DAC 100 makes it slightly more attractive, although my gut tells me to quit chiseling for nickels and spring for what I know will do everything, the Canopus ADVC-100 unit. I need to know if the DAC 100 unit will capture directly into Premiere. The $50 to $75 difference between the two units may be the deciding factor. I really would rather get the Canopus, but I’ll go any route I have to in order to make this DV project work.

Does anyone know any more about the DAC 100?

[Will Hay]

One last thing I'd like to add Frank is I've been using my $40 ATI card for all my anologue camcorder captures for a six months now, and it was only at the point I bought the ATI that I had what I now feel is 100% success with analogue capture.
As I mentioned I capture with it (I run the sound through my sound card and set the capture to record audio as 'line in') using the free utility Virtualdub, edit with Pinnacle Studio 8, ecnode with the excellent TMPGEnc (free for mpeg1/vcd and 30 days trial for mpeg2/svcd/dvd) and author with Ulead Movie Factory 1.0
My point is, considering you have a relatively decent system I can't see why a conventional $40 ViVo card wouldn't suffice
At worst, you spend $40 and sell it again on ebay when it doesn't work for $30, if not more.
Good luck Frank, post back how you get on
Will

[Renegade6]

I tried with an ATI All In Wonder capture card, it wasn't bad. With a firwire card you will notice the difference in how you capture. The Adobe Help Disk is good as well. I have 6.5 and the help disk help me burn my vacation video in vcd format

[Renegade6]

With analog you will tend to have a little more poorer picture quality than you would with a digital. Sorry I didn't get to read all of your previous post on what type of camera you have

[frankandjoan]

Now I’m confused again. Let me get this straight. Are you saying that all I need is the ATI All in Wonder Capture card and a firewire card? Or is that only true if I have a DV camera? I don’t understand how I could read my analog tapes in. How does the firewire come into play? Do I even need a firewire card?

I’m not inclined to start over, but if I can get away that low of an investment, I will consider it. That would absolutely satisfy my requirement of little money. Perhaps even more important then low cost, the system has to be stable and functional. The output also has to be of higher quality then tape-to-tape dubbing, both in audio and in video. That should be a low threshold to surpass, but it is her requirement. I have to be able to use Premiere, because if not, that huge pile of money was wasted. I know I can get all of this except price with the Canopus unit, I believe I can get it all, including price with the DAC 100 unit, and I don’t know anything at all about this All in Wonder system that Silky31 is describing.

I’m beginning to regret the topic title I chose for this forum, because the longer it goes on, the more evident the answer becomes.

[Renegade6]

An ATI All In Wonder capture cared allows for S-video and rca jacks. You don't need both a AIW or fireward card. With a digital camera most come with an a 1394output to a firewire you don't have alot of dropped frames with a firewire.

[VidGuy]

I think from what you are saying, really all you need to do is replace your video card with an AIW card. The AIW card is both a capture card and a video card, so you don't need any extra slots (personally, I have an AIW 7500, and it works just great - like $60 on sale).

Firewire won't do you any good without a digital camcorder, and since you don't have one and won't be getting one anytime soon.....

[arcorob]

This will solve your problem...Somewhat
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/logicalplus/atial128pro3.html

Now here is the deal as I see it. You need to do a little reading up (here ) on these subjects. Try the guides as they are VERY helpful.

Digital Video is for DIGITAL camcorders and IEE1394 firewire.

Analog source as you have is generally input via a converter, such as the ATI all in wonder card. That allows you to input via RCA plugs, composite mode.

One major difference. To successfully capture without dropping frames, you will most likely need to go AVI. If you do, let me warn you it takes a TON of space. You then take the AVI and convert to MPEG.

Now some folks INPUT directly to MPEG, let the machine convert as it captures. Good luck with that because unless your machine is fast, unfragmented and very lucky, it does not give good quality.

[Supreme2k]

If money is a problem, and you don't need to stream back to analog, why don't you go with the advc-50? It's under $200 (incl. s/h) and it does an excellent job. In the opinion of our video staff, it edges out the DAC by a pretty good margin (we have the DAC, ADVC-100 and 50). You really can't beat DV editing and filtering capabilities. You'll have much better quality if you go that route.

[txpharoah]

Get yourself an ATI All IN Wonder 7500, 8500, or 9700. Other ones like the VE, 128 Pro have known issues.

I work with multi-$K cards at work, so I've seen true powerhouse systems, but at home I use an ATI All In Wonder 7200 and 7500 in my two computers. The output is exceptional, and I work freelance, often putting home movies onto DVD. You can either straight transfer and capturing directly to MPEG2, or you can capture AVI and edit in Premiere 6.5 and then encode with MainConcept to final MPEG2.

The guide in my signature (written by my friend LS) also outlines how you can direct transfer VHS to DVD with an ATI and get perfect-quality results.

If you're fed up with Firewire and DV, don't feel left out (many people are agitated by those cheaply-made devices). The ATI card more closely resembles a professional card in its quality and ease of use than those HIGHLY annoying consumer DV cards from Dazzle or Canopus.

And don't let somebody tell you about dropped frames being a problem with the ATI card - it's a problem on systems that are overworked or badly setup. I've never had a single dropped frame since I bought my first ATI in 2001, and the guide I mentioned will show you ATI settings to also avoid dropped frames.

The only thing I like more than my own ATI is one of the Matrox, Canopus, Avid or Panasonic setups I have access too at work - of course, some of those cost more than my car, and some as much as my mortgage!

The ATI AIW system sounds like a good option for you. If you want to give everybody a fair chance (and look into some of these other suggestions), buy several cards, and try them out at home, and take the losers back to the store for a refund a few days later (Fry's Electronics is one store I know of that will accept returns on open hardware, no questions asked, as long as its all there).

Because the ATI 7500 was replaced by the newer 8500 and 9700, it is on closeout sale for as low as $119 in some places.

[frankandjoan]

Compelling arguments, indeed. I must confess, I am being swayed towards the ATI All-In Wonder. I believe that the extra guidance provided will help our Athalon machine to avoid frame droppage and other problems. I need to talk it over with my wife, and explore pricing and availability, but the cost advantage and the computability with my current system is highly attractive. By the way, txpharoh, you NAILED IT with your closing statement. I have been trying to save pennies and I made up the price difference in blood, sweat and tears. It almost, (and still may) cost me this hobby. I have been foolish, and I knew it. A stern talking to by a DV professional is just what the doctor ordered, and I will begin to explore the path you and others have laid out today. Thanks to you and all others who have taken the time to attempt to help me out. By the way, I’m still open to other ideas, but as of now, this is the path I am looking at.

[mando]

frankandjoan you also mention:

Because I don’t own a DVD player or burner, whatever I buy has to be able to capture from and output to my VCR, with regular RCA jacks

and if you see a lot of people is assuming that you will convert to VCD, SVCD or DVD. now my question is:

What are you planning to do when you finish with the capture?

Keep it in your PC? Need a really BIG HD
re-master to VCR? or buy a DVD player and convert to VCD, SVCD if you have a CD burner.

[arcorob]

Big Tex said

"If you're fed up with Firewire and DV, don't feel left out (many people are agitated by those cheaply-made devices). The ATI card more closely resembles a professional card in its quality and ease of use than those HIGHLY annoying consumer DV cards from Dazzle or Canopus. "

I want to know what this guy is drinking and where to buy some....

First, your standard CHEAP DV IEE1394 Card BLOWS away any Analog ATI capture card just from a sheer speed perspective. I gave him the easiest analog capture ATI to use, but lets be serious here. ATI software is the worst. This is why most ATI users use the card, but not the supplied software. The capture they really use is coming from Microsoft so lets not give credit out for success that doe snot belong in its place.


you also said
"And don't let somebody tell you about dropped frames being a problem with the ATI card - it's a problem on systems that are overworked or badly setup. I've never had a single dropped frame since I bought my first ATI in 2001, and the guide I mentioned will show you ATI settings to also avoid dropped frames."

Let me join your hand in patting yourself on the back. Especially when you are VERY VERY wrong. ATI will capture AVI with not a single dropped frame, but not necessarily MPEG .....and if you want to talk speed .I'll put my machine up against the best, the ATI will not ever reach the speed of a firewire. Not now, not ever. It is not designed too. Analog that is. The only smart thing they did was incorporate an IEE1394 and did ATI make it ? course not....

Keep spewing tex, keep spewing.

[frankandjoan]

Confused again
So far, mixed reviews on ATI, solid positive for Canopus, no info on DAC 100

[txpharoah]

First, your standard CHEAP DV IEE1394 Card BLOWS away any Analog ATI capture card just from a sheer speed perspective. I gave him the easiest analog capture ATI to use, but lets be serious here. ATI software is the worst. This is why most ATI users use the card, but not the supplied software. The capture they really use is coming from Microsoft so lets not give credit out for success that doe snot belong in its place.

The ATI MMC software could be better, but it does its job admirably. The guide shows you what to do (both book that comes with it, and better advice in the guide in my signature). And Virtual Dub, the free software alternative that everybody seems to love, is not that much better. And don't get me started on Dazzle and other firewire software. Yuck! No options, hard to use.

Sorry acrorob, but your facts are a mess, so much so, to where I won't even bother correcting them on this statement. The DV argument, the Microsoft comment, the speed comment... all malarky. The internal AGP card (or even a PCI card) will not be outperformed by an external device. Hate to burst your bubble.

Let me join your hand in patting yourself on the back. Especially when you are VERY VERY wrong. ATI will capture AVI with not a single dropped frame, but not necessarily MPEG .....and if you want to talk speed .I'll put my machine up against the best, the ATI will not ever reach the speed of a firewire. Not now, not ever. It is not designed too. Analog that is. The only smart thing they did was incorporate an IEE1394 and did ATI make it ? course not....

This could not be farther from the truth. Most of my personal work is direct conversions, and I direct capture to MPEG2 (all the way from the lowest settings to the highest settings), and not one single dropped frame.

And if you want to have a "whip-it-out" contest, I'll gladly stack my machine(s) against yours any day of the week. Even my lowest machine can provide quality on the ATI card, and provide results that make many drool.

I always enjoy criticism. But not from somebody that chooses to not be forthright in their credentials. Have you even used an ATI card? I've been working with video for 12 years, DVD for 5 years, and with an ATI AIW card for 2 years. I'm not spouting, I'm sharing tried and true experience. I doubt you do much video work in your field of Disaster Recovery (yes, I know how to read profiles).

I've got more than $10K in video equipment and the ATI AIW setup is very nice, and produces quality that is as close as one can get to professional without owning an NLE or multi-$K home setup from Canopus (NOT the ADVC 50/100/IEEE1394, I mean DVstorm with MPEG2 cards) or Matrox (RTX100 and similar cards for the low-end professional).

And by some miracle, prices for ATI products have dropped in price on the older items, allowing some lucky buyers to get bargains for little more than $125. Mine all cost $200-$300+ and are worth every penny.

Again, since I knew this kind of BS would happen, I suggest that "frankandjoan" buy them both and take the loser back to the store a day or two later. Get what you want, but I know I do not enjoy the hassles and long conversion times of DV AVI, especially when quality is not any different or worse. The ATI AIW card is a very scaled-down version of the Matrox RTX100 card. If you want to see a TRUE video card, go to the Matrox website and check it out. Then compare it to an ATI, and you'll see the similarities. That one is next on my list (wanting to add a capture card to my 3rd system).

[Will Hay]

What do you need an AIW for?
Do you really want to pay for the tuner?
Will

[Will Hay]

Let me join your hand in patting yourself on the back. Especially when you are VERY VERY wrong. ATI will capture AVI with not a single dropped frame, but not necessarily MPEG .....and if you want to talk speed .I'll put my machine up against the best, the ATI will not ever reach the speed of a firewire. Not now, not ever. It is not designed too. Analog that is. The only smart thing they did was incorporate an IEE1394 and did ATI make it ? course not....Keep spewing tex, keep spewing.

I find txpharoah's constant belittling anyone without £kkk's to spend and using low budget consumer-monkey software a real pain.
He may very well be the most arrogant obnoxious little person I've had the misfortune to come across on this site but on this occasion talks complete sense, while your post is, well, frankly laughable.
Will

[frizb]

Go with the Canopus ADVC-100 & the firewire card & you won't be sorry! I think I tried every possible solution before finally going with the Canopus & I could kick myself for waiting as long as I did. Perfect captures every time. No audio synch issues.

[txpharoah]

I find txpharoah's constant belittling anyone without £kkk's to spend and using low budget consumer-monkey software a real pain.

I by no means attempt to come off as an *******, but consider this: I do this for a living (at least a good portion of it). I wouldn't be sharing info if I was not trying to help or did not know what I was talking about. But that's not the case. There are too many arrogant people here that know not of what they speak, and pass on WAY too much misinformation, often telling me I'm a moron, when my experience shows otherwise, as have raises and customer satisfaction.

I like Canopus, but their extrenal ADVC50/100/IEEE1394 are way too overpriced for what little they can do, and are a disappointment to many pros looking for a home card that could have easily crushed ATI.

You get what you pay for. I'm reminded often of the THREE LITTLE PIGS. There are too many people here building their houses out of straw and expecting it to provide the results of a house of bricks. You bought straw: you get straw. You buy bricks: you get bricks. Buy what you want, not something you have to fight with and force it to work past its capability.

More users here need to understand what their products CAN and CANNOT do and where they fit in the evolutionary chart or food chain of products.

The DV AVI bridge is the lowest end of the capture card spectrum. The original poster was fed up with them, and I'm not surprised. I suggested a higher product, the ATI AIW, which does more, and often at better quality. (Does Canopus do better DV AVI? Maybe. But this guy wants to convert home movies, not edit the next cinema production, in which case the Canopus's supposed value of DV AVI is entirely lost on this person. The Canopus has no MPEG2 ability, and last I checked, that was what DVD needed.)

And when they buy a DV camera, all they must do is plug it into the computer's firewire port. The Canopus DV capture card would be of no use. And he still won't need the Canopus stuff to edit his masterpiece from the digital video camera and export to DVD.

All that this poor guy needs is a capture card for conversion. The ATI All In Wonder is an excellent solution, and provides all the things he has asked for. And when he's done converting video, unlike an external device that would then merely collect dust (if he didn't break it from frustration), the ATI card would also allow for other functions as provided by the tv tuner. And the cost is about the same: you've got to do a costs-benefits analysis.

[Will Hay]

All that this poor guy needs is a capture card for conversion. The ATI All In Wonder is an excellent solution, and provides all the things he has asked for. And when he's done converting video, unlike an external device that would then merely collect dust (if he didn't break it from frustration), the ATI card would also allow for other functions as provided by the tv tuner. And the cost is about the same: you've got to do a costs-benefits analysis.

One last thing I'd like to add Frank is I've been using my $40 ATI card for all my anologue camcorder captures for a six months now, and it was only at the point I bought the ATI that I had what I now feel is 100% success with analogue capture.
As I mentioned I capture with it (I run the sound through my sound card and set the capture to record audio as 'line in') using the free utility Virtualdub, edit with Pinnacle Studio 8, ecnode with the excellent TMPGEnc (free for mpeg1/vcd and 30 days trial for mpeg2/svcd/dvd) and author with Ulead Movie Factory 1.0
My point is, considering you have a relatively decent system I can't see why a conventional $40 ViVo card wouldn't suffice
At worst, you spend $40 and sell it again on ebay when it doesn't work for $30, if not more.

Kinda my entire point txpharoah, much earlier, although I can't see why an AIW is required.
Mine is a standard Radeon ViVo 64mb DDR and without doubt, for the money, is the best peice of hardware I ever bought.
W.

[Will Hay]

....the ATI card would also allow for other functions as provided by the tv tuner. And the cost is about the same: you've got to do a costs-benefits analysis.

Just seen this
It's not the case in the UK but sure, if there's no price difference it's the best way to go but for video in and video out why complicate the card with an all-rounder, why not stick with just a dedicated card for capture (or at least a card devoting more of it's energy to just capture)?
WH