NTSC vs NTSCfilm? Whats the differance?

[Qvirre]

Could both be played equally as good on all DVD's why use NTSC instead of NTSCfilm or vice versa?

[adam]

Ok ntsc is used primarily in the US and Jap. Ntsc tv's require that the image be played back in ntsc which is 29.97 frames per sec (vcds are an exception since ntsc film is a supported framerate.) If the image is not played back at this framerate you will either lose color or get very choppy playback or both.

Now dvds and svcds support something called a 3:2 pulldown. What this does is allow you to physically encode your video in ntsc film which is 23.976 fps yet play it back on the television at 29.97fps. Ntsc film is just a slowed down version of regular film which is shot at 24 fps.

So what this does is it gives you %30 less frames to encode so at the same bitrate your video looks %30 better. The 3:2 pulldown which is embedded in the mpeg stream tells the dvd player to do a real time telecine (convert 23.976 to 29.976)while the movie plays. So there is no difference between ntsc and ntsc film when it plays because on the television they are both played at the same speed. Its just an encoding technique which gives drastically better quality.

Now like I said earlier, vcds actually support ntsc film which means you can encode at 23.976 fps and it will be played back at exactly that framerate but you will still get that %30 quality boost. Unfortunately many dvd manufacturers have neglected this option and you may find your dvd player cannot play ntsc film vcds even though there is nothing non-compliant about it.

So if possible you should always encode to ntsc film, but only if your source is already at the framerate.

[Vejita-sama]

Here's the short answer (and by short I mean less than 5pages).

Your TV set is made is display 29.97fps of interlaced source. Interlace refers to the fact that each frame is actually made of two fields (odd and even). Each field only has 1/2 the data (every other line). When you put the two fields together you get 1 frame. So your TV actually shows 60 frames/s.

Movies are shot at 23.976fps progressive. Progressive in that each frame is a compete picture (no fields) displayed one after the other.

Now if you want to play a 23.976fps movie on your TV, you have to convert it to 29.97fps. This is done by a process known as telecine (aka 3:2 pulldown).

So if your source is 23.976fps you should use NTSC_film, this will add the 3:2 pulldown flag to your video so your TV can play it. If your source is 29.97fps, use normal NTSC.

ASIDE - so why does the NTSC film template exist? And what can you do with it. Well if your souce video is 29.97 just encode as normal, if it's 29.97 telecined you could encode as normal, but you'll get a much better quaility MPEG if you first convert it back to 23.976fps, encode, then add the 3:2 pulldown flag (so it'll play on TV). Here's why:

23.976fps @ 2000kbit/s = 83.4kbit/frame
29.97fps @ 2000kbit/s = 66.7kbit/frame

so you get a 25% increase in bitrate but for the same length movie!

Converting a 29.97fps telecined movie back to 23.976 is done by a process known as inverse telecine (aka IVTC).

So now you ask, why not use IVTC on all your stuff. Well first, its really really really slow. About doubles the encode time, also there are a lot of different ways to telecine a movie and the IVTC process doesn't work 100%.

So I hope I answered your original question and didn't confuse you with the other stuff Luck

[msfox]

So how does one tell if the source is 23.976 or 29.97?

[adam]

Well you can tell what your source is by viewing in a player like media player and looking at its properties (will tell you framerate) or you can load it in dvd2avi or flask and it can usually tell you the correct framerate and whether it is interlaced or progressive. If your source is 23.976 progressive your good to go, encode to 23.976 and add the pulldown if your making a svcd.

If if its 29.97 interlaced than you might be able to use force film in dvd2avi (only if its %95 or higher film) or you can do an inverse telecine during encoding.
Forced film works on most dvds making dvdrips relatively easy to encode in ntscfilm.

[Vejita-sama]

Let me add that a 23.976fps source that's been telecined to 29.97fps will read as 29.97fps (after all it is after the conversion).

One well to tell if this has been done is to load in a player that allows you to advance by frame. If you see 3 progressive frames, then 2 interlaced frames, repeat then it's a 23.976fps source that's been telecined to 29.97fps.

General rule of thumb, if it was shown in on the big screen (was a movie) it was 23.976fps and has been telecined. If it's from TV it's most likely 29.97fps. I say most likely because some TV shows (cartoons or made for TV movies) are shot at 23.976fps.

And last point, if you don't want to spend the time running a IVTC process, you can choose 'force film' w/ DVD2AVI and it will make a 23.976fps D2V by removing the 2 interlaced frames for the DVD RIP (in theory this leaves you with all the progressive frames) and you can encode from there.
The problem is that much like IVTC this process doesn't work 100% and you'll be erasing/losing/changes a few frames of the movie.

[kinneera]

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One well to tell if this has been done is to load in a player that allows you to advance by frame. If you see 3 progressive frames, then 2 interlaced frames, repeat then it's a 23.976fps source that's been telecined to 29.97fps.
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Technically, telecining makes ALL of the frames interlaced. The more accurate description is that the two fields won't match, ie. the lines alternate between two frames. Furthermore, only ONE out of every five frames should exhibit this behavior if it was telecined properly.

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And last point, if you don't want to spend the time running a IVTC process, you can choose 'force film' w/ DVD2AVI and it will make a 23.976fps D2V by removing the 2 interlaced frames for the DVD RIP (in theory this leaves you with all the progressive frames) and you can encode from there.
The problem is that much like IVTC this process doesn't work 100% and you'll be erasing/losing/changes a few frames of the movie.
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We've been through this before... if the movie was CORRECTLY telecined, using force film in DVD2AVI will not damage, truncate, erase or otherwise harm the movie, as it is only dropping the extra hybrid interlaced frame. As mentioned, however, this only applies if the movie was filmed at 23.976/24 fps, and not 29.97.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kinneera on 2001-09-18 20:05:32 ]</font>

[Qvirre]

OK! Tnx all for your answers... Now I've got the picture

[suAve]

I understand, but what (and how) should we use...

Source is a 100% NTSC Film (per DVD2AVI). On some sources it's 99% NTSC Film. In this case, should I use the 'FORCE FILM' setting ?

Then, what template should I use with TMPEG for plain VCD ? NTSC or NTSC-FILM ???

TIA !!!

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On 2001-09-19 09:22:41, Qvirre wrote:
OK! Tnx all for your answers... Now I've got the picture
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[Vejita-sama]

If the source you load in TMPGenc is 29.97fps use the ntsc templaet. If it's 23.976fps use the NTSC_FILM template. You can make your source 23.976fps in DVD2AVI by turning force film on. If you have a hybrid DVD, most seem to turn force film on at 90% Film or greater.

Kinneera - I'm fairly certain it's 3 frames match, 2 frames don't match. Not 4:1, at least every telecined source I've ripped and everything I've read supports that. How do you get 4:1 instead of 3:2?

[MadMax_911]

kinneera
23.97 to 29.97 makes 3 progressive and 2 interlaced because it takes 4 frames and creates 5 meaning that frame 1 is a mix of 1&1. 2 is 2&2. 3 is 3&3. 4 is 3&4 and 5 is 4&1.

[suAve]

Vejita-sama,

What I've been doing was NOT use FORCE-FILM, and then selecting the 29.97 fps ntsc template. All VCDs are coming out fine.

But I understand that using FILM (if source is film) is better. So, to make it clear, if DVD2AVI says 90-100% FILM I should select FORCE-FILM, and then use the 23.976fps ntsc-film template ?

TIA !

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On 2001-09-19 19:59:14, Vejita-sama wrote:
If the source you load in TMPGenc is 29.97fps use the ntsc templaet. If it's 23.976fps use the NTSC_FILM template. You can make your source 23.976fps in DVD2AVI by turning force film on. If you have a hybrid DVD, most seem to turn force film on at 90% Film or greater.
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[kinneera]

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On 2001-09-19 20:37:46, MadMax_911 wrote:
kinneera
23.97 to 29.97 makes 3 progressive and 2 interlaced because it takes 4 frames and creates 5 meaning that frame 1 is a mix of 1&1. 2 is 2&2. 3 is 3&3. 4 is 3&4 and 5 is 4&1.
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If you have 4 frames and need to make it 5, it makes no sense to mess with 2 of the frames, that just reduces quality even more. The most obvious method is just to double one of the frames. But if your going to create mixed-interlaced frames, the next most logical solution is
1&1, 2&2, 2&3, 3&3, 4&4 or something similar, in which case simply dropping the 2&3 frame yields the original set of frames.

[mkosung]

Hi there, i am getting really confused with all the questions and answers so i am goin to make this quick and ask all the experts in here..ok here goes:

1)How many dvd encodings are there? ntsc? film? pal?
2)Ok, i want to encode a dvd to watch it on my tv. How do i do this? is it as follows?
- use dvd2avi program..
- use tmpegenc and load vcd(PAL) template because I want to watch on my PAL TV.

Does this sounds correct??
3)what do i need to change in the setting in tmpegenc under advanced tab?
- what do i put in each field? video source?field order? source expect ratio??

Someone please help me out as i only normally go for the default settings..

Please give me explaination to what setting goes for what kind of movie.

If possible give me all the combinations of movies that can be done..

Thanks HEAPS!!

email me will be best if possible

Mark

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: mkosung on 2001-09-20 19:58:41 ]</font>

[adam]

suAve: correct. Actually everywhere I have read says that you should not use force film unless its at least %95 film not 90, but most dvds either get above %95 or dont get close to it anyway. But if your source is film and it is less than ~%90 film then the preferred method is to not use force film, use the inverse telecine function in TMPGenc, and use the ntsc film template.