fuzzy lines when capturing from VHS

[theharebreaks]

Hi All, newbie here

I recently managed to get hold of a TV Tuner card.
It is a unbranded card, I believe that it might be a
brooktree based bt484/bt878.
It has input for FM, TV, Composite, and s-video.
It has another point, which I think is for audio output.

I am not interested in the TV viewing, just want to get
some old VHS tapes onto CD, in VCD or SVCD format.
My VCR is outputting via a SCART to the composite
input of the Card.

I have managed to capture using VirtualDub and Ulead VideoStudio 7.
But the quality does not seem very good. I get what I can best
describe as (horizontal) fuzzy lines appearing and disappearing very quicking in the video. I have read as much as I can from the forums,
and do not believe that it is a interlacing issue. (You are welcome to correct me if I am wrong). I have
tried to encode the captured file to mpeg1 using TMPGenc
with noise reduction and this seems to help a bit, but not a lot.

When playing the VHS tape on TV the picture is good. I do
not see these fuzzy lines.

What I have noticed, both in VirtualDub and VideoStudio is that
when the VCR is powered on (but not playing) and I am in capture preview mode, I get a blue screen AND I can see these fuzzy lines.
If I switch the VCR off, then I get a clean blue screen with no fuzzy lines.

Is there anything I can do about this? After reading various how-tos/
forum posts, I am slightly confused as to what this is? Is it
some form of interferance / noise? Is this some extra
unwanted signals the VCR is sending or do I just have a card
which is not good enough?

Sorry about the long post.
Thank you in advance.

Abid
PS H/W
Ahtlon XP1600+
512MB RAM PC100
IBM HDD 40GB
OS: Win2000

[tmfwy]

Hi there

I believe that you are facing the interlacing issue.

2 things to take note of
a. You can see the horizontal fuzzy lines only when things are in motion.
b. They do not appear when you view the source on the TV.

Try using the De-Interlace option in TMPEG and you should not see it. Alternatively, encode the output in half-res (352x240 or 320x240)

[theharebreaks]

Hi tmfwy,

Thank u for your responce,
I have just tried the de-interlace option with a already mpeg1
file I have at work. This has not made any difference. I will
try it again when I get home on the original captured avi file.

FYI: I have tried to capture at 320*240 and 352*288 at 25fps (I
am in the UK and use PAL).

Regards,
Abid

[Will Hay]

I'm guessing you haven't burnt to a cdr yet, right?
You may find if you create your vcd this 'fuzz' won't be apparent.
Mine are similar when veiwed on the PC monitor but fine on the TV.
You haven't said which codec you are using in Virtualdub when capturing, which is it?
I had a similar issue with a Win TV Go! capture card a few years back which was based on the same format, ie. brooktree.
It was terrible and if I selected anything other than the smallest capture setting gave me horiz. green flashing lines.
It may simply be a case of a poor quality card
On another matter, am I right in thinking you won't be getting the full performance from your processor by using PC100 memory?
I was under the impression the XP's needed PC133
Will

[theharebreaks]

Hi silky,

Yes I have tried burning to CD. I used VCDEasy.
The resultant CD does not play on a standalone
VCD Player, but does with a DVD player.
Unfortunately, I still get the lines on the TV, both
when using the DVD player and the TV Out function
using a laptop with a DVD player.
I have used PICVideo and huffyuv. I will be retrying
to capture using the huffyuv codec, coz I think that I
might have used a older version. Have got v2.1.1
downloaded today.

The flashing lines you mentioned below, do you remember
if you got these even if you did not have your VCR playing?

Could well be the card itself, from the information I have
it is approx. a year old (although un-used).

Not sure about the performance issue with XP and PC100.
I have never heard about this before. If you know of any
test I can run, let me know and I will try to run the test.
I do have processes using 99% of the CPU time, if that helps.

Kind Regards,
Abid

[txpharoah]

The DVD->VHS guide below may have some information that will help you. I'd say to just make a CVD (yes CVD, not VCD) or SVCD instead of the DVD since you need to put it on CD.

And ignore the ATI part since you don't have that card. Just find comparable settings on your card.

The video info and TMPGenc information may help though.

[Will Hay]

I have used PICVideo and huffyuv. I will be retrying to capture using the huffyuv codec, coz I think that I
might have used a older version. Have got v2.1.1
downloaded today.

Huffyuv is very processor intensive.
The only thing I can suggest is you try the PicVideo MJPEG on a low setting, say quality 15/20 (or even lower) and see if that helps.

Not sure about the performance issue with XP and PC100. I have never heard about this before. If you know of any
test I can run, let me know and I will try to run the test.
I do have processes using 99% of the CPU time, if that helps.

I do have PC133, but forgot to change the BIOS to reflect the memory speed.
It was set to PC100, and as a result the Athlon processor was only running as a 1250, not a XP2000+
My point is your processor may be running at a lower clock speed, until you upgrade to PC133 memory.
I know this is the case for my XP2000+, it may not be the same for your processor
Just something to check and maybe with more experience than me can confirm.
One way to check is to see what the processor identifies itself as when you first boot.
Will

[txpharoah]

In truth, merely converting VHS to DVD/SVCD/VCD without editing makes AVI and HuffyUV a waste of time and energy. The AVI format is intended for editing, not just converting. If you can convert straight to MPEG, try that. That's also outlined in the VHS->DVD guide in my signature.

[theharebreaks]

Hi,

Thanks, will try and capture to mpeg.

silky - most s/w. bios etc identify my Athlon correctly.
also, when capturing with huffyuv, I cannot remember
the processor going over 50%. Will double check this.

Kind Regards,
Abid

[Will Hay]

In truth, merely converting VHS to DVD/SVCD/VCD without editing makes AVI and HuffyUV a waste of time and energy. The AVI format is intended for editing, not just converting. If you can convert straight to MPEG, try that. That's also outlined in the VHS->DVD guide in my signature.

Be all means try it, but most domestic capture cards don't have the power to capture real time in decent quality, hence the reason most of us capture to avi and encode.
Will

[themichael]

Are you using composit in or video in? I had problems using the tuner to capture video, watch TV wasn't a problem. I also changed the drivers I was using from the factory version to a WDM Video capture driver by Eduardo José Tagle. worked better on my 400MHz Celeron and my AMD XP1800 ticks over at 60% with the antivirus and firewall still running in the background.

also make sure your video cables are OK. I had one that would mess up after the computer fan exhaust would heat it up a little. Last time I buy premade cables (Made in China too).

http://btwincap.sourceforge.net/

Mike

[theharebreaks]

Hi,

Checked the back of the capture card, it says video in.
I think that I have had my composite and video in confused.
Will try and download the drivers and see if that makes a difference.

I have tried to de-interlace the original avi file, but that does not
seem to make any difference.

Got home late yesterday, so did not get a chance to do
any more capturing tests etc.

Kind Regards,
Abid

[RoopeT]

Make sure you have selected YUV2 color format in VirtualDub and disable preview and overlay. I get those green lines when capturing in RGB color space (or at least used to get with my older thunderbird 1200). The generic Bt WDM driver (Btwincap) is a good idea, these drivers work a whole lot better than the original WDM drivers for my shitty Terratec card.

With your setup, you shouldn't have any problems capturing with huffuv or PicVideo Q20/20 or Q19/20. However, with my older rig I had to disable preview in order to capture without frame losses in huffuv or PicVideo 20/20.

[theharebreaks]

Hi RoopeT,

Yes I am using YUV2, but do not have preview or overlay disabled.
You are the second person who has mentioned green lines,
but mine seem to be white lines? Using the generic
drivers did u manage to get rid of this.
I should be getting home one time tonite, so will try and
find the generic drivers and try these outs.

Also, I will try and get hold of another VCR and also
might try and get hold of a standalone VCD player,
and use the s-video rather then video in.
I will try capturing from these, just to make sure that it
is not my VCR.

If I am in preview mode in vdub, but not actually playing
a VHS in my VCD, what should I get in the preview window?
I get a blue preview screen and also the fuzzy lines.
If I switch the VCR off, then the fuzzy lines disappear.
Is this something I should expect?

Thanks.

Kind Regards,
Abid

[RoopeT]

You are the second person who has mentioned green lines,
but mine seem to be white lines?

I can't really remember, maybe they were white lines. Pay no attention to that.

I get a blue preview screen and also the fuzzy lines.
If I switch the VCR off, then the fuzzy lines disappear.
Is this something I should expect?

I have never experienced anything like that. Maybe it's a grounding problem after all, or something wrong with your composite cable.

[theharebreaks]

Hi,

If it is a grounding problem, what can I do about it?

Thanks
Abid

[RoopeT]

Try if plugging both your computer and your VCR into the same, grounded electric outlet will make any difference.

[theharebreaks]

Hi,

I have managed to upload a mpg file, which
shows the fuzzy lines to
http://www.abidraqib.dsl.pipex.com/Movies/fuzzy.mpg

If anyone is interested then plse download and view as Full Screen.
The file size is approx 2 meg (12 secs).
Basically this is with the VCR on, but not playing. The avi
file produced was approx 47meg.
I used the wizard within TMPGenc to create a VCD (PAL) mpg
file (URL above), and did not change any of the settings with
TMPGenc.

I am hoping someone might have seen this before,
maybe let me know what this is
or
maybe this is expected from a VHS and I am wrong in
thinking that I should not expect a completely blue screen.

Thanks
Abid

[housepig]

In truth, merely converting VHS to DVD/SVCD/VCD without editing makes AVI and HuffyUV a waste of time and energy. The AVI format is intended for editing, not just converting. If you can convert straight to MPEG, try that. That's also outlined in the VHS->DVD guide in my signature.

even if he can capture directly to mpeg, it may be worthwhile to go to .avi first.

I've noticed with the captures I've been doing, even though it's a pain to have to go to avi first, then convert to mpg, I have much more control and much better output capturing as .avi with iuVCR, then converting with TMPGenc, than I do capturing directly to mpeg with NeoDVD.

The converted captures have more sharpness and definition than the direct captures, probably because I am using a consumer level, BT8x8 card.

I also find I have less problems with audio synch using iuVCR.

If someone can recommend another software, besides the NeoDVD, that can capture directly to mpeg, without synch problems, I'm all for testing it. But until then, this method works, and produces good results.

- housepig

[theharebreaks]

Hiya,

OK, get to try a few things

I managed to borrow a VCR and a VCD player.
The borrowed VCR gave me the same output
as my own VCR.
I also connected up the (standalone) VCD player,
just to see what the quality will be like. (Using s-video).
It was a bit better, but not a whole lot more.
Also, themicheal suggested using the drivers
from btwincap.sourceforge.net
Tried these, very similiar result as to what I was getting
before.
From the information I get from the website, I have
a CPH052 series card :bt878 chipset with FM

From various other posts and what I have managed to
capture, I am now guessing that level of quality I
am getting is the best this card can manage. Of course
if someone with the CPH052 card has different experience,
please do correct me.

Someone mentioned that I should try to capture direct to mpeg.
Tried this also, but the quality is far lower then avi-> TMPGenc-> mpeg.


Many thanks for everyones input.

Kind Regards,
Abid

[Don2050]

theharebreaks,

I ran into the exact problem you did when trying to capture dubbed VHS to DVD. AFter going through all the same things you did, I found out for me these lines were do to the tapes themselves. When I played a new commercial VHS the lines were barely noticable...but dubbed ones from archived stuff made them very noticable. What I ended up finding out was that some kind of noise reduction filter was the only way to get rid of them. The trade off is less crisp images...but in my case that was better then the flickering lines.

You can use TMPGEnc's NR filter as you already did, or a few people have made filters for Virtualdub specifically for VHS captures....namely Flaxen, which can be used at capture or post processing.

http://shelob.mordor.net/dgraft/flaxen/flaxen.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~casaburi/download/index.html
http://flaxen.dynip.com/vdf/
http://shelob.mordor.net/dgraft/

For me setting up a filter chain of VHS and NR filters in Vdub is the only thing that worked....

goodluck

[VinnySem]

OK, call me silly... but try a better quality cable?

[theharebreaks]

Hi,

VinnySem - I think that I am using good quality cables. Although,
I will try and source another good cable, just to be sure.

Don2050,

Will try some of the other filters while capturing.

I understand what you mean re: VHS tape quality.
I would expect that when playing different quality tapes, I
get more/less lines, but should I get these lines even when not playing a VHS Tape but I still capture.

Thanks for your input.

Regards,
Abid

[vcd4ever]

theharebreaks,

Have you tried capturing without the antenna and audio cable connected to the vcr, and the vcr plugged to a grounded outlet that is not used by anything else than the vcr.

vcd4ever.

[Don2050]

I do not get the lines when I capture with the TV tuner in the card (I have a Leadtek Winfast) only when I capture VHS.

[jaxxboss]

Dont listen to VinnySem , he hasd no clue what he's talking about. LMAO, better quality cable! TOO FUNNY, maybe he'll suggest a better diet next, or new furniture.

[Nitemare]

Actually, poor quality cables have been a problem for some people in the past. It's not common but it's certainly not unheard of either. Also keep an eye open for anything else that might be making line noise.

Example... I have my capture PC in a basement. The normal lighting in the basement consists of UV tubes (sorry... the correct name for these is escaping me...it's late). I must turn these off and use an incandescant lamp (light bulb) while capturing to cut back on my line noise.

I know how unlikely that sounds but it's true!

Regards,
Nitemare

[bbb]

TV Tuner cards, especially the BT8X8 cards are very sensitive to noise (RF noise probably from your computer itself). The interference noise is very visible if you capture from a VCR using composite cables (not as visible if you capture from Satellite/dvd player using S-Video cable but you can still see it if you capture from a VCR blue screen). Using thicker and shielded composite cables will not help. I've tried it before. Changing drivers will not help. I've tried that before too. Changing VCRs will not help. Grounding will not help. Turning off flourescent lights will not help. I've done all these so you don't have to.

What you can try is to move the capture card farthest away from your video card. This might help according to some people. I have never tried this before.

Basically, the problem is the damn capture card--not properly shielded from radio frequency noise from the computer itself. I experienced the same thing and struggled with it, and finally stopped using the BT8X8 card. Simply too much noise with the BT8X8 cards. Once your card has the noise, there's probably no way to get rid of it until you get a different (non-BT8X8) capture card.

I hear that the ATI AIW cards with analog tuners experience less noise. I might get one in the future to test out. Hopefully, the Macrovision problem is not a insurmountable issue with ATI cards.


Suggestion: Try moving the capture card to the furthest PCI slot from the video card. If that doesn't help. Then you should get a different capture card. Trust me. Nothing you do will erase the noise. It's not your fault. It's the cheap card's poor RF shielding.

You can get an older ATI AIW card off Ebay. I hear they work pretty well but I have no personal experience with them. I currently use a Pinnacle DC 10+; it captures only up to 640x480 but it's sooo clear, no noise at all. Or you can get an expensive ADVC-100.