Advice on what filters to use when converting VHS to AVI

[sanlyn]

I'd use VBR bitrate, 6500 average, 8000 max (or you could make it 9000 max), and 2000 minimum. Considering the often soft video, amount of processing, many action sequences and/or constant camera motion, you'll need a high bitrate to avoid problems. Most amateurs don't realize that more jiggling of the camera requires a decent bitrate to prevent smearing and motion artifacts. Set the "performance" parameter to "somwhat slow" or slower (slower = higher quality motion search.

6500 VBR plus 8000 max is about 90 minutes of video on a single disc, or maybe 1hr 20 minutes with much motion. You'll get slightly less audio noise and cleaner sound by replacing MP Layer II-128kbps audio with Dolby Digital-256 kbps.

[jagabo]

The average bitrate determines the file size:

 file size = BITRATE * running time

BITRATE = the sum of the audio and video average bitrates.

If you're putting the video on a 4.3 GB DVD you must use an average bitrate that keeps the size below 4.3 GB (use a bitrate calculator). People generally use the highest average bitrate they can to fill a DVD (minus a percent or two to reserve space for menus, VOB muxing overhead, subtitles, etc.). If the running time is less than 1 hour you can fit the entire video on the DVD at the max allowable DVD bitrate (~9800 kbps). For practical purposes people usually use something lower than that, typically ~9000.

If you're not making DVDs there may be no reason for you to limit the bitrate to 9800 kbps (peak and average). You can get higher quality by using higher bitrates. Especially with noisy video.

[avz10]

Thanks a lot for this very useful information!

[2Bdecided]

If you are re-interlacing at the end, and if you don't crop or stabilise or trim by 1 field etc (essentially if you return the lines from the original fields at the end of the script, rather than the lines that were invented by the deinterlacer)

Is there a mode for QTGMC that keeps the original fields intact?

Don't know - there was for TGMC and it was visibly inferior to the default mode, leaving residual combing.

By default they are unrecoverable (same with Bob).

luma is perfectly recoverable with dumb bob - see the avisynth mediawiki example. chroma isn't always.


Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

On your settings screen cap, you've left it 720x480. You want it 720x576 or preferably (IMO!) 704x576.

Use the highest bitrate you can (assuming you're happy with 1 hour per single layer disc). Do not use the absolute maximum as some DVD players do not like playing DVD-+Rs at max bitrate. 8Mbps is usually safe.


Cheers,
David.

[Brad]

luma is perfectly recoverable with dumb bob - see the avisynth mediawiki example. chroma isn't always.

Good to know. My statement was technically correct since I said "by default".

Bob(0.0, 1.0) preserves the original fields for RGB and YUY2 and preserves the Luma but not the Chroma for YV12.

[sanlyn]

If your input to Premeiere Elements is lossles Lagarith AVI, and you specify output as lossless Lagarith AVI, the video itself is not re-encoded to lossy encodes. If you don't specify lossless output, Elements will re-encode the video.

[avz10]

It seems as if it is 2 steps forward and 10 steps back!

When I initially captured the video last year, https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/352191-Capturing-VHS-cassettes-in-AVI-with-VirtualDub-audio-and-video-out-of-sync?highlight=avz10, I had a sync problem.

I was advised to use the following settings:
#4 from that post


I had no problem with sync issues after that.

Due to the poor quality of my initial effort last year, I re-started the project. I used the same settings as above, but never checked it, as there were no problems the previous year.

I initially copied all the 3 hour VHS AVI videos, but over months, I have “dissected” them to nearly 300 clips, all done in VD.

Due to duplication, space, etc, I deleted the 3h cassettes, but obviously kept all the clips. All my work was then done with VD and I never listened to the sound. I then used some scripts and had a few AVI files that I encoded with TMPGENC- excellent quality!

Having encoded a few clips yesterday and watched them on my desktop and TV, I found that there is a sync problem. I have not loaded it into a NLE to compare, but it sounds as if most, if not all are out of sync.

Can anyone help me with this?

Yesterday was the first time that I actually watched it as mpegs on the TV. The DVD player did not want to play the AVI’s. It was a bit of a disappointment, as on TV I struggled to see much of a difference?

[sanlyn]

You say that audio on "some" of the clips seem out of sync. I recall that some of those clips were from 18fps or 20fps 8mm film, then had pulldown applied to make them run at 25FPS. But those films didn't have audio, if I recall. The way you are joining clips might have something to do with it. DId any of these original films have audio? I don't recall audio being included in any of the sample AVI's. Or are you applying audio such as music, etc., during edits?

[2Bdecided]

Yesterday was the first time that I actually watched it as mpegs on the TV. The DVD player did not want to play the AVI’s. It was a bit of a disappointment, as on TV I struggled to see much of a difference?

Been there, done that...

Even first generation PAL VHS is far noisier than any modern digital source, though I find the noise is more obvious on the PC than on a TV. For best results, burn the result of whatever AVIsynth script you try to DVD and check on a TV. It's easy enough to take all your short clips, apply one setting to all of them, then a different setting (e.g. adding more or less noise back in, using a different denoiser, etc), and then dump all the lot onto a DVD to compare.

IME when you watch that DVD, you wonder what the differences really are. Differences that look really obvious when you A/B frames on a PC seem to disappear when you just watch things one after the other on a TV. You can drive yourself mad.

I initially copied all the 3 hour VHS AVI videos, but over months, I have “dissected” them to nearly 300 clips, all done in VD.

Due to duplication, space, etc, I deleted the 3h cassettes, but obviously kept all the clips. All my work was then done with VD and I never listened to the sound. I then used some scripts and had a few AVI files that I encoded with TMPGENC- excellent quality!

Having encoded a few clips yesterday and watched them on my desktop and TV, I found that there is a sync problem.

Is the sync problem in the split-AVIs, or only the AVIs that have gone through AVIsynth, or only on the final encoded MPEGs?


Are all the AVI generations lossless video + PCM audio? What sample rate? Were the VirtualDUB cuts made with Direct Stream Copy selected for both audio and video? Was VirtualDUB happy with the original AVIs when you loaded them back in?
(just checking the obvious).


I am very sensitive to lipsync error, find such things very annoying, and sympathise!


Cheers,
David.

[avz10]

It remains difficult when English is a second language to always make oneself clear!

You say that audio on "some" of the clips seem out of sync.

Due to the huge number of clips, I only checked about 20. It sounded as if all of those were out of sync, although it is difficult with some, as one cannot always see people talking, etc. My impression is that all clips are out of sync.

I recall that some of those clips were from 18fps or 20fps 8mm film, then had pulldown applied to make them run at 25FPS. But those films didn't have audio, if I recall.

Good memory, those ones had no audio. Another project.

All the others have audio, I checked #42; clips "a" and "h". There is definitely audio.

The way you are joining clips might have something to do with it.

I have not joined clips or added music. Perhaps with the cutting/editing part in VD something went wrong.

Is the sync problem in the split-AVIs, or only the AVIs that have gone through AVIsynth, or only on the final encoded MPEGs?

Unfortunately in the split AVI's, prior to do anything. I only noticed it in the mpeg clips and then I went back all the way.

Are all the AVI generations lossless video + PCM audio? What sample rate?

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\User\Videos\1. Projek\Video clips voor encoding\1. Voor AviSynth\1 C 1998.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
File size                                : 588 MiB
Duration                                 : 1mn 23s
Overall bit rate                         : 59.0 Mbps
Writing library                          : VirtualDub build 32842/release

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : Lagarith
Codec ID                                 : LAGS
Duration                                 : 1mn 23s
Bit rate                                 : 57.5 Mbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 5:4
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 5.543
Stream size                              : 572 MiB (97%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings, Endianness              : Little
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 1mn 23s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 15.3 MiB (3%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 40 ms (1.01 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration             : 500 ms

Were the VirtualDUB cuts made with Direct Stream Copy selected for both audio and video? Was VirtualDUB happy with the original AVIs when you loaded them back in?

Yes, I used Direct Stream Copy and as far as I can remember, I never had a problem with loading AVI's on to VD.

With regards to rectifying the problem, on the internet I found some solutions:

1. YAAI with VLC media player
2. Media Player Classic; YAAI and AVI Frame Rate Adjust
3. With VD:

1. Open your AVI file in the program by going to "File", then "Open Video File" (Ctrl+O).
2. Now go to "Video" and select "Direct Stream Copy".
3. Again, go to "Video" and now select "Frame Rate" (Ctrl+R).
4. Select the radio button which has the following text: "Change so video and audio durations match". You should end up with a non-standard frame rate.
5. Go to "File", "Save as AVI" (F7). After saving the video, try to play it in your media player if it is in sync now.

Any opinion on this?


Still experimenting with scripts!

[2Bdecided]

It's academic (I mean, it's of no practical use) now, but were the original captures in sync? I can't see how you've done anything to break the sync afterwards, so maybe it was wrong to start with?

A constant (fixed) time offset between audio and video, once identified and measured, is pretty easy to fix. Shifting/drifting sync is a nightmare, especially if it was in the originals which are now cut-up. However, someone might have a good idea. Maybe start a new thread about it with a specific title to catch people's eye if you don't get any luck here?




The suggestion you found on-line works only where something is in-sync at the start, drifts out of sync as it plays for some reason, but still has all the original video frames and audio samples. I doubt that's the problem you have, but it's free to try it.


Sorry I've no better ideas. I've never had this problem.


Cheers,
David.

[sanlyn]

Now that a few days have passed......

Do all of the videos have the same sync problem? Or is it only videos from one or more capture sessions but not from other captures? I assume that all these captures are from tapes made with home cameras. At this point it would be impossible to verify that the original captures did not have the problem, because the captures no longer exist. However, if the audio sync was not correct during an original capture, the loss of sync would be progressive -- it would usually be worse at the end of the capture than at the beginning.

Does this problem occur when individual clips are played alone, or does it occur after several segments are joined from different sources?

[avz10]

I have not yet tackled the sync problem again. Will do so in the near future.

I took a number of clips- from different cameras and used these as a basis of my testing to see which will project best on TV.
Per clip, I used different scrips, including the ones that were suggested by Sanlyn and others. I then had approximately 10 variations per clip.
I used TMPeg to convert them to Mpeg and then created a video. I gave all the clips a number, to ensure that this experiment was blinded.

I then played the DVD on TV. My son was the best. He viewed and reviewed and per clip with numbers that did not indicate what script was used, he gave me his choices, and to my surprise, when I compared, more than 90% of his choices were using the same script. There was no difference between cameras, etc.

The script I used and therefore which was chosen by him, which won the generic prize, were this one

#---required: mvTools.dll version 1.11.4.5, 2008
#---QTGMC.avsi, but can use bob() or yadif to deinterlace
#---This script works only in YV12

AviSource("C:\Users\User\Videos\1. Projek\Video clips voor encoding\Albie\1 C 1998.avi")
converttoyv12()
assumeTFF()
QTGMC(preset="very fast",sharpness=0.6)
source=last # <--- save the original input

#--- denoiser: ---
backward_vec2 = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, delta = 2, pel = 2, overlap=4, sharp=1, idx = 1)
backward_vec1 = source.MVAnalyse(isb = true, delta = 1, pel = 2, overlap=4, sharp=1, idx = 1)
forward_vec1 = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, delta = 1, pel = 2, overlap=4, sharp=1, idx = 1)
forward_vec2 = source.MVAnalyse(isb = false, delta = 2, pel = 2, overlap=4, sharp=1, idx = 1)
source.MVDegrain2(backward_vec1,forward_vec1,backward_vec2,forward_vec2,thSAD=400,idx=1)

clean=last # <- save the cleaned version
diff1=subtract(source,clean).Blur(0.25)
diff2=diff1.blur(1.5,0)
diff3=subtract(diff1,diff2) # <- "diff3" is higher frequency noise only
sharpen(0.6,0.0)            # <- sharpen cleaned version a little

#--- put cleaned chroma back in with warp sharpening ---
mergechroma(clean.aWarpSharp(depth=20.0, thresh=0.75, blurlevel=2, cm=1))

#---- re-interlace: -----
assumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()

This appears quite basic, but in general, this was the verdict, I will still use the scripts that were written for the "difficult" clips, but for nmost clips I think I will go with this one. For me, it was difficult to see any difference, and my son sometimes voted for the unedited ones.

Any idea/comments or changes to the script? I must sat thee was a vast difference between watching them on my laptop and then watching them on TV!!

[sanlyn]

It is a good general denoiser, created by 2BDecided and based on the MVDegrain2 function from the older mvTools. Still in popular use, and I use it myself quite often. Note that this will not correct many problems that are common with home-made videos: oversaturation, crushed darks, blown-out highlights, chroma shift, and color bleed. But it can clean up many other disturbances and give a smoother look to video.

[2Bdecided]

It is a good general denoiser, created by 2BDecided and based on the MVDegrain2 function

As used in that script, I think it's just the example code from the mvtools documentation, plus some chroma warp sharpening (which was Didee's idea). Those "diff" lines aren't included in the final output in the script, so I can't claim any credit.

From memory (I haven't gone back to re-check your clips) I would include a 2-line vertical chromashift near the start (e.g. see post 64). The merge warpsharp chroma trick will be hiding the offset most of the time, but works better if you explicitly fix it first.



btw, do I get to say "I told you so"? ...

Even first generation PAL VHS is far noisier than any modern digital source, though I find the noise is more obvious on the PC than on a TV. For best results, burn the result of whatever AVIsynth script you try to DVD and check on a TV. It's easy enough to take all your short clips, apply one setting to all of them, then a different setting (e.g. adding more or less noise back in, using a different denoiser, etc), and then dump all the lot onto a DVD to compare.

IME when you watch that DVD, you wonder what the differences really are. Differences that look really obvious when you A/B frames on a PC seem to disappear when you just watch things one after the other on a TV. You can drive yourself mad.

Cheers,
David.

[avz10]

I must say the capturing with the S-VHS machine made a huge difference. My unedited videos never looked so good on TV, even the very bad ones (father in law's 1st camera).

Just some opinions please:

1. Is there any other crucial element that I have left out of this script?(except for

   I would include a 2-line vertical chromashift near the start

2. Should I first use AviSynth with the script and then try to fix the audio or vice versa?
3. And 2B, you told me so!!!!!

Albie

[2Bdecided]

If it was me, I'd solve this audio sync problem first. Having the audio in sync (at least when people are talking) is far more important than all the other restoration you're considering.

Cheers,
David.

[avz10]

Thanks David- still struggling with this. I suppose once I have corrected the sync problem, I can delete the originals and keep the new ones, if no changes have been made to colour, etc.

I have posted the sync problem last month under "Audio" and would appreciate any input. I updated it this morning.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/360304-Synchronising-audio-and-video-of-300-AVI-clips

Hope someone can help!

[avz10]

This is from the other thread and it throws another light on everything

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/360304-Synchronising-audio-and-video-of-300-AVI-cli...86#post2285986

Apart from trial and error, does anyone know of a good program that can accurately measure the delay?

Posted by hello-hello
MediaInfo will accurately display any audio delay. It'll be listed under Audio as "Delay Relative To Video". If there's no "delay relative to video" listed (as per your example) then there's no delay being used for the audio stream (the audio and video begin at the same time).
A lack of an audio delay in the AVI itself doesn't necessarily mean the audio and video are in sync though. If for some reason the sync was out during the capture process then you'd need to remux the AVI while manually specifying an appropriate audio delay, and the only method I've found for discovering what that might be is trial and error.
And of course if for some reason the amount of audio/video de-sync isn't consistent (ie it changes as the video progresses) then setting an audio delay while re-muxing won't be able to fix it properly.

I analysed approximately 20 clips with MediaInfo and they all showed that there were no delay.



By accident, I played a number of clips with different video players. I used VLC, Windows Media Player and Media Player Classic-Home Cinema. The audio and video started exactly at the same time when I played it with VLC and WMP, but there is a significant delay if I play it with Media Player Classic. The audio starts late and continues after the video has ended.

So, this does not really look like a sync issue.

I uploaded a video on YouTube and then downloaded it on my laptop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wJMQcdd4Eo

I played it, using all 3 players, and the trend was the same: The audio and video started exactly at the same time when I played it with VLC and WMP, but there is a significant delay if I play it with Media Player Classic.

Does anyone know of a solution- perhaps send the clips through VirtualDub with different settings?

[jagabo]

By accident, I played a number of clips with different video players. I used VLC, Windows Media Player and Media Player Classic-Home Cinema. The audio and video started exactly at the same time when I played it with VLC and WMP, but there is a significant delay if I play it with Media Player Classic. The audio starts late and continues after the video has ended.

Make sure you don't have MPC's audio time shift option set. View -> Options -> Internal Filters -> Audio Switcher -> Audio Time Shift.

In general, checking audio sync by the start time of the audio and video isn't a good method. What you want to do is check whether audio and video events are in sync. Ie, lip sync, a door slamming, etc.

[2Bdecided]

I've answered in the other thread - though I don't really have a good answer. I almost never visit the audio forum, so I hadn't seen your posts there, but I'll check back now I know.

[unclescoob]

"Right on, young man! Are your replies available on Kindle?"