+R or -R for distribution??

[lordsmurf]

I was PM'd to reply to this, so here goes:

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ROF said "A VHS will far outlast any burnt media." then upshot said "It will?? So your saying that by moving from vhs to digital I've 'downgraded'??"

No, that was complete bullshit. Don't get scared by non-sense. VHS tapes are a very lossy and fast-degrading format. That was the entire reason optical technology was pursued.

Laserdisk was like a "beta test" for DVD, it's where they worked out most of the bugs, as it relates to disc longevity and quality. They were obviously too large for mass acceptance, but it succeeded nonetheless.

There is no evidence (trusted lab or accurate empirical) that DVDs will "degrade" or "have disappearing data" anytime soon. Your discs, as long as you use good blanks (when burning), will last several decades (30+ years, if stored properly), far longer than a VHS tape. There are some really stupid people online that will try to make you believe otherwise, all of which are suspicous or otherwise scientifically unsound, but they are far and few between (like most crackpots in society). I suggest you re-burn every 5-10 years, if you can.

Every time you play a VHS tape, you damage it slightly, and you risk major damage. With a DVD, the player does nothing to harm the media. Of course, never leave EITHER media in a player/recorder for more than 6 hours, both will possibly be damaged by excess heat.

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The most intelligent thing I read in this thread was this: "I'm going to cut to the chase. Whatever you use, -R or +R, you WILL find that someone is going to have problems playing it. That is the reality of burnable DVD media. Nothing works 100% of the time."

That is 100% true. You will find DVD+R (booktype changed or not) is less compatible than DVD-R by a small percentage, but all discs will fail in some players. Inversely, all players tend to fail on some disc. If you want THE MOST COMPATIBLE disc around (the one that will work more often than not), then use MCC DVD-R media. Between being a DVD-R, and having a highly reflective metal AZO dye, it's a great disc, assuming your burner does the lead-in/lead-out correctly (some of those cheap drives just really suck, so I suggest people ONLY use Pioneer drives).

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This is another one truly smart gem: "Simple solution (works for me): on the ordering page and anywhere else you see fit, explicitly say that you will be sending DVD-R discs and that the client's player must support DVD-R. If they need DVD+R, they must specifically request it upfront. That way, you don't have to eat anything."

Could not agree more. Put down what format disc you'll use, and if they need something else, that is their responsibility. If the order is small, you can just do doubles everything, give them both a DVD-R and DVD+R and your job is done. They'll either be glad they got one to work, or they'll be happy they got an extra/backup. Either way, happy!

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YUDEN000T02 is probably one of the best 5 blank DVDs I have ever seen. The other two were PVC, and the first MCC and MXL are the others. YUDEN 8x DVD+R beats any other media right now, which is very sad, now that it's being phased out for 16x, which is not as good as the 8x was.

MCC DVD-R generally works better than TY DVD-R. It burns in more burners (TY DVD-R just does not work well in a few burners out there), and it has better reflectivity. The coaster % is about the same too, both are 1st class media.

Whoever said that, wherever that may have been, was on the ball with his/her comments.

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Recap: Tell customers what you use, let them tell you if the other is better for them. If they don't know, time that they learn. Better yet, give them one of each, blank discs don't cost that much.

DVD is going to be better than VHS. But just to be prickly about it, it even it was not, guess which ones customers will want?

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Finally, I swear all of this information has been posted in this forum before, at least several times. A forum search would have probably found at least one of them, though not all of this data may have been together. I do know some of this info was in the media forum stickies.

[jlietz]

Better yet, give them one of each, blank discs don't cost that much.

True, but when aggregating the additional media cost + additional burning time + packaging (case) + extra shipping weight, doubling up could really eat into upshot's profits.

[mikel]

Why not just give them a choice when they order?
Keep a reasonably small supply of each and/or burn when necessary.

Mikel

[jlietz]

Why not just give them a choice when they order?

In my opinion, giving a choice when ordering is likely to cause more confusion than its worth in the 95% of customers who will be able to play DVD-R. If it was more like 60/40, then it might be worth it, but the fact is that almost everyone will be OK with DVD-R and blissfully unaware that a distinction in formats even exists. Even if you post a disclaimer as I suggested earlier, most people won't read it, but the point is that it gets you off the hook for shipping free replacements.

[lordsmurf]

Better yet, give them one of each, blank discs don't cost that much.

True, but when aggregating the additional media cost + additional burning time + packaging (case) + extra shipping weight, doubling up could really eat into upshot's profits.

There is zero reason that extra packaging is needed. Ship one case, and two DVDs. Put the extra in a sleeve and stick it in the one case.

Extra wieght per disc? An ounce, maybe? Negligible.

Price of extra discs? Increase your price 50 cents per unit.

Doubling up on time? This is the only one I can see being a concern. Buy an extra duplicator, if it's that much of a hassle. And anyway, I said do this on small orders. For large orders, not your problem. All of this goes in the "fine print".

[bevills1]

According to test results at http://www.bitburners.com/Reviews/Hardware/VSO_DVD_recorder_and_media_reliability_report/
-R are more compatible than +R although not by a wide margin.

[upshot]

ah yes. the smurf has spoken (thank you btw... you have been very helpful in my conversion quest)

I think I'll be heading for TY 8x -R (meritline has 100packs for $25 at the moment)... I'll give the customer the option of +R upon request (TY 8x +R).

I should mention that I will continue to sell vhs if they want it (shrug) the beauty of having it all digital now is that I can clean up, re-edit, steal footage, etc. and the masters will not degrade (just as lordsmurf mentioned the fact that every time you play a vhs your slightly damaging it..) I've also found that the process of remastering (proc-amp-> tbc-> dvd recorder-> then re-encode in procoder) has slightly improved the originals. between this and using a equalizer to eliminate certain frequencies where the vhs heads were introducing noise, vhs copies recorded directly off streaming on the computer are looking and sounding really nice.

Thanks again everyone for your help along the way!

[upshot]

Although I think sending the double format package is a good idea and yes in reality it wouldn't be that much more time/overhead... The primary way it may cut into business is that the second copy could be given to a neighboring school/library... Obviously I'd like to be selling them that copy!

It's not a bad idea though...

[ROF]

I was PM'd to reply to this, so here goes:

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ROF said "A VHS will far outlast any burnt media." then upshot said "It will?? So your saying that by moving from vhs to digital I've 'downgraded'??"

No, that was complete bullshit. Don't get scared by non-sense. VHS tapes are a very lossy and fast-degrading format. That was the entire reason optical technology was pursued.

Have you ever visited an AV room at an educational institution? When does the janitor visit this room? Can you honestly say a DVD with it's easily scratchable(especially burnt media) will outlast an enclosed VHS cartridge? No BS, just truth. A VHS will far outlast a DVD in such environments especially when the kids and faculty of uneducated consumers put their sticky fingers all over the disc surface. Whoever PMed you could have had the gumption to post themselves but instead they dragged you over the coals.

[strongbad]

Burnable dvd's has only been out for about 6 or so years so we can't say if it will last 30+ years or not. I think at this point it is safe to say VHS is more durable. With VHS, yes you degrade the film each time you play it and new kinds of video noise or lines appears out of nowhere in time but they can still be played and look good as long as you store it properly. The same can't be said for burned DVDs. It's being reported all over the internet that people's burned DVD's whether it be a TY, MCC or Ritek have been failing in only a span of 1 week-2 years. Even the highly touted Taiyo Yudens are reported to be unreadable after only a few years since it's burn. As far as I'm concerned DVD's are an unreliable media for archiving purposes. I hope I'm wrong and that they do last 30+ because I have so much sports I record on my TY discs. I take care of my discs as best I could. I get the proper standard DVD cases for them, I store them vertically like people say even though others say horizontal is fine. I keep it away from light and even have damp-rid dehumidifier buckets laying around. It would be a shame if after doing all these care precautions, I come back 7 years later to a disc and find it won't work.

[upshot]

I have no idea how you (or anyone) can predict how any product will be handled. Rest assured that I will still be offering VHS if the client shares your opinion...

I will say this though. They will have dust cases, a dvd collection will take up far less space (which is more easlily managed), and as time goes by people are more aware of how to properly handle them.

[ROF]

Note to self: VHS tapes have dust cases too. Now if someone could just remind people how to use them.

[RLT69]

strongbad wrote:

With VHS, yes you degrade the film each time you play it and new kinds of video noise or lines appears out of nowhere in time but they can still be played and look good as long as you store it properly.

What exactly do you mean by "look good?" Do you mean playable? Maybe. Give it to your friend and see if it will play in their machine. How much you want to bet that it will look worse. Little known fact, video recorderings look best on the machine that made the recording. I know, I worked in an A/V dept in college. Not to mention that A/V dept have to reorder video tapes in their collection because they degrade.

The problem people are missing is even if you keep your tapes in a climate controlled environment and properly clean your VCR, the video tape will degrade, Period. If you apply the same care to a DVD, it will last your entire life. There's no comparison.

Thing is most people do not keep their tapes in a climate controlled environment. Most people do not clean their VCRs and if you VCR eats your tape, your S.O.L.

[strongbad]

strongbad wrote:

With VHS, yes you degrade the film each time you play it and new kinds of video noise or lines appears out of nowhere in time but they can still be played and look good as long as you store it properly.

What exactly do you mean by "look good?" Do you mean playable? Maybe. Give it to your friend and see if it will play in their machine. How much you want to bet that it will look worse. Little known fact, video recorderings look best on the machine that made the recording. I know, I worked in an A/V dept in college. Not to mention that A/V dept have to reorder video tapes in their collection because they degrade.

The problem people are missing is even if you keep your tapes in a climate controlled environment and properly clean your VCR, the video tape will degrade, Period. If you apply the same care to a DVD, it will last your entire life. There's no comparison.

Thing is most people do not keep their tapes in a climate controlled environment. Most people do not clean their VCRs and if you VCR eats your tape, your S.O.L.

By good I mean the way it was first recorded. My tapes play fine on my VCR and other people's vcr's as well. Your tape will only look better on your VCR that recorded the tape if your VCR is damaged.

Nobody ever disputed VHS tapes deteriorating under proper storage. Everyone knows it does. The difference is, even as tapes age and deteriorate in quality, they can still be played as long as the film isn't wrinkled up. DVD's can be perfect then at one point will stop and turn the whole disc to crap and won't be functional and won't be able to be ripped in a lot of cases.

As for as your opinion that DVD's will last our entire life with proper care, how do you know? That isn't a fact. It's an ignorant assumption with no evidence. Your whole post is ridiculous. It was confrontational based on statements I've never even stated.

[RLT69]

By good I mean the way it was first recorded. My tapes play fine on my VCR and other people's vcr's as well. Your tape will only look better on your VCR that recorded the tape if your VCR is damaged.

Really. You apperantly never worked in an A/V department. I've had professors come in with a tape that they brought from home, plays fine in their VCR at home, put it into the schools VCR and it looks horrible. There's nothing wrong with the school's VCR because they've been tested and properly cleaned. The problem is with the tape.

Nobody ever disputed VHS tapes deteriorating under proper storage. Everyone knows it does. The difference is, even as tapes age and deteriorate in quality, they can still be played as long as the film isn't wrinkled up. DVD's can be perfect then at one point will stop and turn the whole disc to crap and won't be functional and won't be able to be ripped in a lot of cases.

What you are stating here is if either media VHS Tape or DVD, experience physical damage, the damage will render both useless. This is correct.

However the difference is if both do not experience physical damage beyond normal usage, VHS Tape will be unwatchable over time. The DVD will look the same no matter how many times you play it.

In terms of the longevity of optical media, in comes down to the quality of the discs.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/CDDVDlongevity.php
http://www.manifest-tech.com/media_dvd/dvd_compatibility.htm

If the DVD was poorly fabricated then the DVD will not last. It's as simple as that. Assuming dyes do not deteriorate over time, then the DVD will last as long as what the manufacturer said, 50-100 years. The same cannot be said for VHS tape.

[davideck]

Really. You apperantly never worked in an A/V department. I've had professors come in with a tape that they brought from home, plays fine in their VCR at home, put it into the schools VCR and it looks horrible. There's nothing wrong with the school's VCR because they've been tested and properly cleaned. The problem is with the tape.

This could be an interchange problem between the two VCRs. One or both may be slightly out of alignment yet still play other tapes just fine.

There are DVD "interchange" issues as well.
I do agree that a given tape will often look best when played in its record machine.

What you are stating here is if either media VHS Tape or DVD, experience physical damage, the damage will render both useless. This is correct.

IMO, there is a difference because a damaged part of tape is not likely to cause an undamaged part to become useless. Sometimes a bad scratch takes out a whole disc. Half of a tape could be hopelessly wrinkled while the other half could still play fine.

However the difference is if both do not experience physical damage beyond normal usage, VHS Tape will be unwatchable over time. The DVD will look the same no matter how many times you play it.

This may be true, but I play my archives as little as possible, disc or tape. I put them away. I am more concerned about how long they will last than how often they can be played.

In terms of the longevity of optical media, in comes down to the quality of the discs.

Just as in terms of the longevity of magnetic media, it comes down to the quality of the tape.

I've had tapes that shredded so badly that I had to clean the video heads every 20 minutes during capture. But the vast majority of my tapes are still in very good condition, including the first ones back from around 1980.

If the DVD was poorly fabricated then the DVD will not last. It's as simple as that. Assuming dyes do not deteriorate over time, then the DVD will last as long as what the manufacturer said, 50-100 years. The same cannot be said for VHS tape.

Magnetic tape has been proving itself to be a robust archival media for many years. I certainly hope that DVD does the same. I never want to discover a "shredding" disc in my set of archives.
I'll never throw away my important source tapes.

[lordsmurf]

RLT69 You know your stuff.
Too bad others refuse to listen to some good information.

Burnable dvd's has only been out for about 6 or so years so we can't say if it will last 30+ years or not. .

This is what I refer to as "fuzzy bullshit logic". I'm not saying this to be mean, but it is what it is. It's very familiar to the one where people say "you don't know until you've tried".

There is plenty of data to show how long optical data will last. DVD may not have been around for more than 10 years now, but optical tech has been around for at least 20 years now, and was in development far before that. Dye-based and phase-change tech has also been around for at least 10-15 years now too. People need to quit acting like DVD came out last year.

[terjeber]

This is always a fun discussion, and the -R and +R camp will chime in with passion. I have used -R and +R for quite a while, and when it comes to the R bit, they are both about as compatible. Some players will play -R and not +R, other players will play +R and not -R. When it comes to RW, it seems -RW is somewhat better than +RW, but I never ship RW, so it is not an issue, and my home player plays both + and - RW fine.

The question then is what format to chose, and what recorder to get. The second answer in my opinion is quite easy. Get a dual format player that does both + and -. Now, to what format you should ship, and my answer may generate some controversy, but I don't care, because I am right, and anyone who disagrees is just way too in love with his particular format.

The +R format is technically far superior to the -R format. This is actually a simple fact, and not even up for debate. This means that you will most likely create a lot less coasters (see comments on media below) with the +R format than with the -R format. The + disks are also more reliable, which means longer shelf-life for your customers. That is all goood.

For the relatively small number of customers (they will get fewer and fewer) that have problems with your +R disks, just keep a small stack of -R disks, and when they complain, ship them a new one in a -R format. Note that there may be a small group of customers who have players that will not play either + or - R disks. Tell them to get a new player. I also tell my "customers" to test the disk as they get them, so that I can ship them a new one ASAP. The extra cost of shipping twice to some 3-4% of your customers will be out-weighed by the fact that you will burn fewer coasters and a happier customer base a couple of years from now when the -R disks start to go bad.

The main problem is not going to be your media format though, but your choice of media. This site is a very good source of information for what media to chose (or more importantly, what not to chose). There is a lot of really bad media out there, and that will give you more pain than your choice of format.