Jagabo explains limitations of line TBC, post #1 & #2
My question is, doesn't "velocity error correction" as described below take account of this issue?
The rest of the post will just be an info dump of my Google research. I've tried to format it as best I can given the limitations of the forum software.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sknet-web.co.jp/sknet/goods/3dwpro.htm
http://www.sknet-web.co.jp/product/ps01prd.htmOriginally Posted by SKnet 3DWPro product advertisement [Google translate - JP to EN]
https://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.muuz.ne.jp/store/crx900...ml&prev=searchOriginally Posted by SKnet Pure-D product advertisement [Google translate - JP to EN]
Explanation of "velocity error correction" in some book called Video and Camcorder Servicing and TechnologyOriginally Posted by PLANTEC CRX-9000 product advertisement [Google translate - JP to EN]
Panasonic MN673794 datasheet excerptOriginally Posted by Panasonic MN673747 description
Try StreamFab Downloader and download from Netflix, Amazon, Youtube! Or Try DVDFab and copy Blu-rays! or rip iTunes movies!
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 30 of 48
Thread
-
-
It can't. The only reference points the TBC has to work on are the sync pulses at the start of every line. So it can make sure that each line 1) starts at the correct time and 2) is the correct length, as in your figure 3.44. But it has no way of knowing what correction needs to be applied within a single line, so irregularities in the speed of the head can still cause visual jitter in the image.
Think of stretching a rubber string first by the two ends, but then additionally pulling towards the ends at one or more points in the middle. The distortion can be non-linear but the TBC only sees the endpoints.
In practice, as the head spins within a drum with a relatively large mass, the speed it moves at can't really change very drastically in the short time one line of video represents. An internal TBC within a tape player could theoretically know the exact spin rate at all times and apply a correction as needed, though I doubt this kind of thing exists.Last edited by ajk; 28th Jan 2016 at 01:47.
-
-
Yep, nothing will of course get rid of first-generation noise or other recording flaws. The best one can do is to not introduce any more when playing back (or capturing).
-
Then everything typically described around here as a "line TBC" is in fact doing both jitter correction and velocity error correction?
-
https://www.google.com/patents/US4443821
Originally Posted by Sony patent filed 1981 -
Hmm.
Patent text is not something I'm going to read in great detail on a Friday night, but I think the idea there is to interpolate the output based on trigonometric functions, instead of a simpler (linear?) approximation. So when the drum is speeding up or down, the TBC takes into account the velocity error over several lines of video and creates a more natural approximation of the original signal. Seems credible that doing so would improve the result, though it still can't fix slight wiggles that aren't predictable from the sync pulses. -
Yes. For example, one could use a spline curve rather than a simple linear adjustment.
-
As I was getting at, just before that linked post by Jagabo, so, what we're getting from line TBCs, such as the ES10/ES15 pass-through, is in fact velocity error correction, despite the fact that the tiny quivers remain, albiet much more subtle.
Then again, I see this quivering with anything I've tried, onboard VCR TBCs, full-frame TBCs, etc. I have yet to see a complete solution for this at the capture level.
However, some current software solutions can remedy this somewhat, and some WIP restoration techniques are showing promise for the future. At least there's some hope with post processing.I hate VHS. I always did. -
I think we will never see a (visually) 100% perfect TBC, because 1) as jagabo said, there's already some error introduced as the recording is made and 2) the correction can only be as precise as the sync pulses are and, for many reasons, they aren't perfect.
Eliminating the last bit of visual quivering has to be done by software means; an algorithm needs to examine the image and try to figure out what to smooth away. Considering how well QTGMC does compared to a basic bob deinterlace, or how EEDI/NNEDI does compared to a regular resize, I don't think this is outside the realm of possibility at all.
I think I'll hook up the ES15 to an oscilloscope some time and separate the sync pulses for inspection, much easier to understand what is going on with the processing that way than reading from a book -
-
Yeah, of course. All those processes do, and so do the best denoising filters we have. But that doesn't mean that it can't be an acceptable trade off, if the perceived result is better. Especially if the image is already pretty good after a hardware TBC and the adjustments needed would be quite small. I wonder if someone has ever made a "denoising" filter that specifically targets horizontal movements?
-
I do think QTGMC is a good example in this case. De-interlacing at the playback level will always be awkward, since you need to be correct on many predictions, which is impossible.
QTGMC's algorithm takes the time to be thorough, and can take all the time it needs when it has the data ready, and much of the guesswork is gone after the playback is captured/recorded, hence the algorithm makes easier decisions field-for-field, improving quality.
Just like deinterlacing software that negotiates a "raking" in the stream is possible at high quality, so is the possibility, IMO, of software that handles a "jitter" or "quiver" in the stream. Same logic in my head, and I can see how, for the same reasons, it can be done better after the capture is complete, not during.
Sure there will be sacrifice and compromise to remove jitter/quiver/wigglie/etc, and just like deinterlacing there will be true detail removed, and I can see it being very slow, at least at first, for higher quality, but I can see a solution like this is very possible, and with an acceptable compromise in quality. If it was as common a problem as interlacing has been we would have already had it.
And there already are a few WIP solutions that are starting to work, and even some threads in this, and other, forums on it.
There's a recent thread here that discusses solutions beyond stab, depan, deshake, Mercalli, etc, and shows promise:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/371336-Stabilization-Tools-Pack-v2-1I hate VHS. I always did. -
I suspect most digital line TBCs use velocity correction. Once the signal is digital it's easy to adjust the line length. Very old analog TBCs may have only adjust the skew. But I'm just speculating here.
-
-
I would assume such hardware may need a buffer, to hold such frames, to be effective.
Yes, a delay may occur, but that's fine as long as it's peforming in the end, but such a delay to me would be simulating an environment similar to software post-processing on a ready-made capture. If so, even though it would be a solution "on the fly" on the label, it's still, IMO, a post solution in many ways.I hate VHS. I always did. -
You don't know how long a line is until you've captured a complete line, sync pulse to sync pulse. Then you need to go back and stretch/shrink the line. So yes, you need at least enough memory to hold one line. You probably need a second buffer to capture the next line while the first is being processed. Maybe even a third, one line being captured, one line being processed, and one line being output to the DAC.
Not at all. The delay is only a few scan lines. And it has access to the sync pulses which post capture software doesn't.
But even if most capture chips have the ability it's rarely implemented in the provided drivers. So it's useless unless you want to write your own drivers. -
-
Originally Posted by jagabo
You are right, but it’s debatable. Something more "soft-coded" at the capture level is easier to work with than something completely "hard-coded" after the capture is done and totally stopped. I get it.
But, as I said, “in many ways", similar to a post solution - something you have to do after the capture - however small a fragment you're working with, any non-zero delay, even if only a ms, line, field, frame, etc, is still a delay.
You need this delay/buffer to work with to have any significant effectiveness.
A buffer to me means something “post”, even if it is something miniscule, and even if it’s during the capture.
Originally Posted by jagaboI hate VHS. I always did. -
The point is that jitter/velocity correction can only reliably be done with access to the horizontal sync pulses. I don't understand your point about a delay. What's the problem with a few milliseconds delay receiving the data? Every TBC, even if it's in the SVHS deck, or any other digital processing unit, introduces a delay.
-
I hate VHS. I always did.
-
-
-
It's not about the "delay". My point is that, when it comes to handling this jitter, you need some form of processing after the capture, even if it's only a segment of a capture, to be effective. You can't do it with any reasonable results during.
Of course, hardware has the advantage of having the info in real time, but without performing any sort of processing after a capture segment, it's not going to be any more effective than a software solution.I hate VHS. I always did. -
Of course. To process video digitally you must first convert it to digital. And as I pointed out, you can't know how long a line is until you've captured the entire line (sync pulse to sync pulse). So the minimum delay is the duration of one scan line. There is no other way to do this since analog video doesn't include a data clock.
But what is the point of bringing this up? Do you have a better way of fixing VHS horizontal sync jitter?Last edited by jagabo; 2nd Feb 2016 at 11:42.
-
Originally Posted by jagabo
Just pointing out that if you have to do something "after" the fact for better results, even if it's only a segment of the capture at a time, it better demonstrates how software and post processing rise up in status of being more "comparible" to a hardware solution.
Originally Posted by jagaboI hate VHS. I always did. -
Any form of processing after will have same success as image recognition - without sufficient resources you will end very close to point where HW is. Decent oversampling may help but... at some point you will be forced to start doing "educated guessing".
http://www.ronaldsnoeck.com/vcr.htmLast edited by pandy; 3rd Feb 2016 at 01:59.
-
Actually, QTGMC works moderately well with mild horizontal jitter:
Code:TurnRight().QTGMC(InputType=1).TurnLeft()
Last edited by jagabo; 3rd Feb 2016 at 08:56.
-
Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
Geez, it's not that big a deal of an explanation. I was stating that, IMO, you can't do this on the fly. That's all.
(Please don't ask what, now...)I hate VHS. I always did.
Similar Threads
-
BMD Intensity Pro 4K "includes a professional, broadcast grade TBC" (Nope!)
By Brad in forum CapturingReplies: 22Last Post: 24th Jun 2015, 18:02 -
[SOLVED] "--ipratio" "--pbratio"+"--scenecut" "--minkeyint" / "--keyint
By Kdmeizk in forum Video ConversionReplies: 14Last Post: 21st Jun 2015, 07:21 -
ADVC hardware encoding vs. "pure" capture? I'm confused.
By analogvideoartist in forum CapturingReplies: 10Last Post: 17th Feb 2014, 09:42 -
Restoring "Safe To Remove Hardware" Popup Confirmation
By CobraPilot in forum ComputerReplies: 8Last Post: 3rd Jan 2012, 12:35 -
Bluray player calling blueray disk "data disk" and saying no video files
By jbitakis in forum Authoring (Blu-ray)Replies: 10Last Post: 27th Nov 2011, 21:06