Converting VHS to Digital which route should I go for better quality?

[bigbadben]

Hi,
I have a Samsung DVD-V70 VHS player, a Panasonic DMR-XW300 DVD Recorder, and a Diamond VC500 usb capture device. Initially I captured my VHS tapes with the VHS player connected to the Diamond VC500 connected to my computer using Virtualdub. The capture showed a line of pixels beneath the video, wobbly horizontal lines and a big black bar on the right side and the video looked a little warped. I bought the DVD recorder and connected it to my VHS player and I was able to get video on my TV screen direct from the VHS player and the video looks much better now and has no visible visual problems. The DVD recorder has a hard drive. Will I get better quality if I capture from the VHS player to the DVD Recorder to the Diamond VC500 to my computer or by recording directly to the hard drive on the DVD recorder from the VHS player? Will the Diamond VC 500 make the video look worse than if I were recording directly on the DVD recorder?

[super8rescue]

I'm tempted to try one of the digitnow boxes
https://www.amazon.co.uk/DIGITNOW-Capture-Digital-Converter-Records/dp/B01DJCDYKI/ref=...N%2CB097T3XDJ9

[Sharc]

@bigbadben
I don't know your DVD recorder model, but if possible you should try to use it in "passthrough" mode, i.e. switch it in between the VCR player and the capture device (your Diamond USB).
You find plenty of threads in this forum about this subject and how to do it.

[bigbadben]

@bigbadben
I don't know your DVD recorder model, but if possible you should try to use it in "passthrough" mode, i.e. switch it in between the VCR player and the capture device (your Diamond USB).
You find plenty of threads in this forum about this subject and how to do it.

I had a look at the threads on TBCs and passthrough. The TBC mode is always active in the DMR series according to one thread, Would the Diamond USB make any difference at all if the DVD recorder is already correcting the video?

[Sharc]

I had a look at the threads on TBCs and passthrough. The TBC mode is always active in the DMR series according to one thread, Would the Diamond USB make any difference at all if the DVD recorder is already correcting the video?

Not sure whether I fully understand your question, but .....
- The Diamand SB capture device will get a clean signal from the DVD recorder (S-video out) in passthrough, hence line jitter and flagging/wobbling should be gone.
- The digital output signal from the Diamond converter can be processed by the PC (e.g. using Avisynth filters, encoders and formats of your choice etc.) more flexibly than with the DVD recorder alone which has its own fixed algorithms and formats.
Maybe you just try and compare the results. Using just the DVD recorder is definitely simpler.

[rrats]

I'm tempted to try one of the digitnow boxes
https://www.amazon.co.uk/DIGITNOW-Capture-Digital-Converter-Records/dp/B01DJCDYKI/ref=...N%2CB097T3XDJ9

Ew

[Alwyn]

That DVD Recorder doesn't do S-Video Out on the VHS side, by the looks of the back panel. That said, if it does do passthrough, even Composite (yellow lead) should be cleaned up the signal for the VC500 to capture. Try it; it will be obvious.

[Sharc]

That DVD Recorder doesn't do S-Video Out on the VHS side, by the looks of the back panel. That said, if it does do passthrough, even Composite (yellow lead) should be cleaned up the signal for the VC500 to capture. Try it; it will be obvious.

Are you sure about the missing S-Video out? I don't have the DMR XW300, but from the specs:

Video
Video system:
PAL colour signal, 625 lines, 50 fields
NTSC colour signal, 525 lines, 60 fields
Recording system: MPEG2 (Hybrid VBR)
Video in (PAL/NTSC):
AV1/AV2 (21 pin), AV3/AV4 (pin jack) 1 Vp-p 75 ≠, termination
S-Video in (PAL/NTSC):
AV2 (21 pin), AV3/AV4 (S terminal) 1 Vp-p 75 ≠, termination
Video out (PAL/NTSC):
AV1/AV2 (21 pin), Video Out (pin jack) 1 Vp-p 75 ≠, termination
S-Video out (PAL/NTSC):
AV1 (21 pin), S-Video Out (S terminal) 1 Vp-p 75 ≠, termination
RGB out (PAL/NTSC):
AV1 (21 pin) 0.7 Vp-p (PAL) 75 ≠, termination
Component video output
(NTSC 480i/480p/720p/1080i, PAL 576i/576p/720p/1080i)
Y: 1.0 Vp-p 75 ≠, termination
PB: 0.7 Vp-p 75 ≠, termination
PR: 0.7 Vp-p 75 ≠, terminatio

The picture in the manual also shows S-Video IN and S-Video OUT at the rear side, if I am not mistaken.

[bigbadben]

The video player I have is a combo unit so S-Video is only for DVDs. I'll have to use composite.

[Alwyn]

Are you sure about the missing S-Video out? I don't have the DMR XW300, but from the specs:

My profuse apologies, you're right. What I meant to say was that the VHS combo has no S-video out on the VHS side (as noted above by Bigbadben).

Which brings up an interesting question. Even if your VHS input to the DVD recorder is composite, is it worthwhile to connect the DVD recorder to the capture stick using S-Video?

[Sharc]

The video player I have is a combo unit so S-Video is only for DVDs. I'll have to use composite.

OK. So connect the VCR video player 'composite output' to the 'composite input' of the DVD recorder and the 'S-Video out' of the DVD recorder to the Diamond VC500 'S-video input'.

[Alwyn]

The video player I have is a combo unit so S-Video is only for DVDs. I'll have to use composite.

If you're in the market for S-video VHS Combos, there are some that output S-video from the VHS side. You can tell from the captions on the back panel.

[Sharc]

Which brings up an interesting question. Even if your VHS input to the DVD recorder is composite, is it worthwhile to connect the DVD recorder to the capture stick using S-Video?

Yes. It will supress dotcrawl thanks to the 3D-comb filter which is in the DVD recorder. At least it works here with my Panny DMR EH50 and DMR E20.

[bigbadben]

Bought an S-Video cable, connected it to the output of the recorder to the Diamond and the output of the VHS player to the input of the recorder. No video from the Diamond. In the manual for the recorder it says to connect composite to composite. That must be the only way and that's it.

[Sharc]

1. You may have to configure/enable the S-video output of the recorder. The S-video socket on the back of the recorder may be AV4 or similar. Check out the recorder settings.
2. In Vdub2 in capture mode -> Device: Try the various devices. It may be the '0 Microsoft WDM Image Capture' which works rather than the VC500 native driver.

As I don't have your models I can't tell for sure.

[bigbadben]

Which brings up an interesting question. Even if your VHS input to the DVD recorder is composite, is it worthwhile to connect the DVD recorder to the capture stick using S-Video?

Yes. It will supress dotcrawl thanks to the 3D-comb filter which is in the DVD recorder. At least it works here with my Panny DMR EH50 and DMR E20.

If you don't mind me asking which capture stick did you use? S-Video doesn't work with the Diamond VC500 in my case. I connected one end of the composite to the output of the VHS player and one end into the input of the DVD recorder. And the s video to the s video out of the dvd recorder into the diamond vc500 input. I tried two different s video cables and made sure the source selected was S-Video in Virtualdub2.

[Sharc]

Which brings up an interesting question. Even if your VHS input to the DVD recorder is composite, is it worthwhile to connect the DVD recorder to the capture stick using S-Video?

Yes. It will supress dotcrawl thanks to the 3D-comb filter which is in the DVD recorder. At least it works here with my Panny DMR EH50 and DMR E20.

If you don't mind me asking which capture stick did you use?

Hauppauge USB live2. But I don't think this makes a difference.
https://www.hauppauge.com/pages/products/data_usblive2.html.
In my setup I connect the SCART output from the SONY VCR to the Composite input of the Panasonic DVD recorder using a SCART-to-Composite cable, and the S-Video output (on the back of the DVD recorder) to the S-video input of the Hauppauge USB live2 (VC500 in your case), using a S-video cable. The audio from the DVD recorder output to the Hauppauge (VC500) input needs to be connected via RCA (red and white plugs) cables.

It may also help to run the capture software which is shipped with the VC500 once just for initialization, and then try again with Vdub(2) or AmarecTV.

[Skiller]

Do you get any signal at all to show up in VirtualDub, like the Panasonic's own setup menus?

[bigbadben]

Do you get any signal at all to show up in VirtualDub, like the Panasonic's own setup menus?

No. If it counts I ran virtualdub as admin once and this black and white static appeared. Otherwise it's just plain blue. I can't get any menus to show up or anything at all. If I disconnect my cables from the capture card it's still blue.

[lordsmurf]

I'm tempted to try one of the digitnow boxes

Crap. Waste of time and funds.
Not much different than Easycap in terms of quality and frustration.

I had a look at the threads on TBCs and passthrough. The TBC mode is always active in the DMR series

Line TBC, not frame TBC. The line TBC in the Panasonic DVD recorder is both strong + crippled, so errors can still pass, and you can still have issues. Better than nothing, but not a replacement for a good S-VHS VCR with line TBC, with a frame sync TBC. It is always on, only certain Panasonics are suggested (not the entire DMR series), and it has side effects than affect quality (posterization, wrong luma levels, aggressive NR that's always on even when "off", etc). These can do nothing for dropped frames, as not a frame TBC, but mere consumer DVD recorder.

If you're in the market for S-video VHS Combos, there are some that output S-video from the VHS side. You can tell from the captions on the back panel.

This is misleading. Most combo players that "output s-video" internally processed via composite. So the output is really just composite quality over s-video. While composite often gets a bad reputation for bad quality, due to bad devices, it's not intrinsically horrible. But consumer combo VHS/DVD unit were almost all bad devices. Few exceptions (a certain Samsung comes to mind and the V70 could be from the same family).

S-Video doesn't work with the Diamond VC500 in my case.

Hauppauge USB live2. But I don't think this makes a difference.

Both VC500 and Live2 are just so variable, in terms of issues and performance, highly likely due to production changes over time. So one VC500 isn't the same as the other, and the Live2 appears to be the same (and Hauppauge is known guilty for recycling model numbers for cards that are wildly different internally).

in Virtualdub2.

Use VirtualDub 1.9.x, not the fork "2". It doesn't act the same, and in fact often causes problems that did not exist in the official VirtualDub versions (or even the pre-2 FM fork).

[bigbadben]

I'm tempted to try one of the digitnow boxes

Crap. Waste of time and funds.
Not much different than Easycap in terms of quality and frustration.

I had a look at the threads on TBCs and passthrough. The TBC mode is always active in the DMR series

Line TBC, not frame TBC. The line TBC in the Panasonic DVD recorder is both strong + crippled, so errors can still pass, and you can still have issues. Better than nothing, but not a replacement for a good S-VHS VCR with line TBC, with a frame sync TBC. It is always on, only certain Panasonics are suggested (not the entire DMR series), and it has side effects than affect quality (posterization, wrong luma levels, aggressive NR that's always on even when "off", etc). These can do nothing for dropped frames, as not a frame TBC, but mere consumer DVD recorder.

If you're in the market for S-video VHS Combos, there are some that output S-video from the VHS side. You can tell from the captions on the back panel.

This is misleading. Most combo players that "output s-video" internally processed via composite. So the output is really just composite quality over s-video. While composite often gets a bad reputation for bad quality, due to bad devices, it's not intrinsically horrible. But consumer combo VHS/DVD unit were almost all bad devices. Few exceptions (a certain Samsung comes to mind and the V70 could be from the same family).

S-Video doesn't work with the Diamond VC500 in my case.

Hauppauge USB live2. But I don't think this makes a difference.

Both VC500 and Live2 are just so variable, in terms of issues and performance, highly likely due to production changes over time. So one VC500 isn't the same as the other, and the Live2 appears to be the same (and Hauppauge is known guilty for recycling model numbers for cards that are wildly different internally).

in Virtualdub2.

Use VirtualDub 1.9.x, not the fork "2". It doesn't act the same, and in fact often causes problems that did not exist in the official VirtualDub versions (or even the pre-2 FM fork).

I tried using Windows 10, 7, Vista and XP with Virtualdub 1.9.11. Each time with the drivers successfully installed the Diamond would not show any signal from the DVD recorder. I also accidentally wiped my hard drive with the command prompt in the Windows setup. And my DVD recorder stopped passing through the signal from the video player altogether. In the manual of the dvd recorder it says copying from the hard drive is also impossible. So I would have to disassemble the DVD recorder to get to the hard drive. Even then it would probably be in some encrypted format that's unreadable without special software. I have terrible bad luck. It looks like I'm just not destined to get this done. I give up.

[Alwyn]

Never ever give up!

This works great for me (Win 10 21H1 and Virtual Dub 1.9.11):

VCR (you've got one already) > Composite video cable > Panny ES-10 or ES-15 (for line TBC) > S Video cable > IO Data GV-USB2 > USB socket on your 'puter.

The Panny is optional but if you have a basic VCR you'll probably need it.

Note: the supplied instructions for the GV-USB 2 are in Japanese. English instructions here.

Full V Dub histogram functionality and live Proc Amp controls available using Graphstudio (dead easy to set up).

You wouldn't have been a Happy Jan when you realised you'd wiped your drive!

[Skiller]

Have you tried connecting other devices with S-Video output to the Diamond?
It can be virtually anything with S-Video output: a plain DVD-player, a set-top box, a game console, a camcorder.

If that does not work either I suggest it would be safe to say the Diamond is at fault.