Does any cheapo HDMI cable suffice ?

[jman98]

I predicted he would come back (see post #68) but he beat my expectations.

usually_quiet - You may be thinking of that asshat (I forgot his name) who was our expert on Philips/Magnavox DVD recorders. He edited every post he ever made to change it to have a pointer to another website (less helpful in my opinion) where he continued to help people with those recorders. I have no idea what set that guy off.

hello_hello - For better or worse the mods do NOT care even a little bit about this type of thing. They've been very consistent in that. I think that after a certain period of time it should not be allowed to edit previous posts, but they have a different viewpoint. Maybe Baldrick would care to elaborate.

[sanlyn]

His post deleting tantrum seems to have extended back to last November now. If I was a mod I'd ban him before he makes a mess of any more threads.

He's gone back further than that. It looks like he's now decided to concentrate on removing all the Avisynth scripts he posted rather than everything. If he was actually posting here to help others as he once claimed, he would have left them. I guess that was not his motivation for joining here after all.

Someone has done this kind of thing here before, although since that member's tenure was shorter, there were fewer posts removed.

For the benefit of newbies I've left some scripted posts intact. Where possible I'm removing anything that contains opinions or impressions about certain hardware. This is not an appropriate forum for those issues.

[hello_hello]

Are your imaginary visitors watching you delete posts? Are they still laughing?

[bigass]

-30-

Nice touch!

[usually_quiet]

usually_quiet - You may be thinking of that asshat (I forgot his name) who was our expert on Philips/Magnavox DVD recorders. He edited every post he ever made to change it to have a pointer to another website (less helpful in my opinion) where he continued to help people with those recorders. I have no idea what set that guy off.

Yes that is right, wabjxo. I have speculated that wabjxo only wanted to monitor one forum for questions and maintain one guide, but another one of our members thought that he left because of posts by other members here harshly criticizing the Philips/Magnavox DVD recorders for not being as good in various ways as machines from more upscale brands. I asked if he had been told this by wabjxo himself, but never got an answer.

[2Bdecided]

Anyone posted this link yet?
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-entertainment/1292371/expensive-hdmi-cables-make-n...absolute-proof
It's quite good.

Cheers,
David.

[transporterfan]

Anyone posted this link yet?
http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/home-entertainment/1292371/expensive-hdmi-cables-make-n...absolute-proof
It's quite good.

Cheers,
David.

Good article. Thanks for that. Have been saying the same to people for years.

[usually_quiet]

Yes, the article was one I have never read here before, and an excellent debunk of the myth that there are special HDMI cables that can provide superior video and audio quality compared to other certified HDMI cables.

However, similar articles made no impression on Sanlyn, who would say that the physics, computer science or mathematics in the article were all wrong, because his eyes and ears perceived a difference. He wouldn't consider the possibility that the equipment being connected could be the source of the problems (assuming the problems were real) or that his perception could be influenced by his own erroneous beliefs.

[pandy]

As i made some experiments in past on HDMI cables i can say that (depends on HDMI Receiver IC quality) even partially corrupted HDMI cable works without problems.
I've used HDMi cable with physically damaged wire (HDMI sent each video signal over pair of wires and use differential signaling) for pixel clock lines and for data channel lines, in all those cases for good HDMI Receiver i have no visible signals of link degradation - 2 cables (1.5m and 2m). was used to perform tests, in both cases also shielding was damaged to expose signal lines, also impedance for twisted pair was disturbed...

[VideoChunkster]

As i made some experiments in past on HDMI cables i can say that (depends on HDMI Receiver IC quality) even partially corrupted HDMI cable works without problems.
I've used HDMi cable with physically damaged wire (HDMI sent each video signal over pair of wires and use differential signaling) for pixel clock lines and for data channel lines, in all those cases for good HDMI Receiver i have no visible signals of link degradation - 2 cables (1.5m and 2m). was used to perform tests, in both cases also shielding was damaged to expose signal lines, also impedance for twisted pair was disturbed...

Good to know

[ConsumerDV]

I got interested why sanlyn got banned, looked up his profile, his last messages, and got here. Well... Normally, I consider differences in cables minute to affect anything. Usually I use the cheapest cables I can get. Yet...

• My component cassette deck came from a service. I connected it to my receiver via RCA wires and... I definitely heard distortion in lower portion of the frequency spectrum, sort of overload, analog clipping, or whatever you call it when it is like the amp does not have enough power, and everything sounds very "dirty". I did not think it was the cable, I thought the deck was not repaired properly. I started playing with it, and it seemed that the sound from the deck's headphone jack was less distorted. Then when I moved the deck out of the stack, disconnecting the cable from the receiver, the sound from the headphone output became clean. WTF? Then I re-connected the RCA cable to the receiver and tried listening from the receiver's headphone jack - it was distorted. Then I tried several other cables and voila! I found one that gave me clean sound. It looked just like other cables, cheap no frills cable. But this is the one I am now using with my cassette deck.
• Another instance of cable variance was HDMI cable from my computer to the monitor. Occasionally I would get rips and sort of unsync'd frames. It was very noticeable and unsettling. It went away after I changed the cable. Again, it did not look any better or more expensive. Wrong impedance? Bad shielding? Both are short 3-foot and 6-foot cables.

Now, explain that

[usually_quiet]

I got interested why sanlyn got banned, looked up his profile, his last messages, and got here. Well... Normally, I consider differences in cables minute to affect anything. Usually I use the cheapest cables I can get. Yet...

• My component cassette deck came from a service. I connected it to my receiver via RCA wires and... I definitely heard distortion in lower portion of the frequency spectrum, sort of overload, analog clipping, or whatever you call it when it is like the amp does not have enough power, and everything sounds very "dirty". I did not think it was the cable, I thought the deck was not repaired properly. I started playing with it, and it seemed that the sound from the deck's headphone jack was less distorted. Then when I moved the deck out of the stack, disconnecting the cable from the receiver, the sound from the headphone output became clean. WTF? Then I re-connected the RCA cable to the receiver and tried listening from the receiver's headphone jack - it was distorted. Then I tried several other cables and voila! I found one that gave me clean sound. It looked just like other cables, cheap no frills cable. But this is the one I am now using with my cassette deck.
• Another instance of cable variance was HDMI cable from my computer to the monitor. Occasionally I would get rips and sort of unsync'd frames. It was very noticeable and unsettling. It went away after I changed the cable. Again, it did not look any better or more expensive. Wrong impedance? Bad shielding? Both are short 3-foot and 6-foot cables.

Now, explain that

sanlyn was banned for removing all his posts. The site administrator restored them later.

This is the first time I have heard of the problems you described being caused by an HDMI cable.

Please stop digging up long-dead threads to add your 2 cents. The old thread warning exists to discourage that. It is not that hard to create a new thread and you are likely to get more replies by doing that

[ConsumerDV]

@usually_quiet, Have you ever asked a question on Amazon only to get back something like "Don't know the answer to that one" or "Never got it to work" or "I don’t know for sure but I HIGHLY doubt it" or "Not big fan of program but works still looking for a better program for it" or "Hello I am sorry I do not know the answer because I returned the item"?

Every time I see an "answer" like this I wonder - why do they bother replying at all?

[usually_quiet]

@usually_quiet, Have you ever asked a question on Amazon only to get back something like "Don't know the answer to that one" or "Never got it to work" or "I don’t know for sure but I HIGHLY doubt it" or "Not big fan of program but works still looking for a better program for it" or "Hello I am sorry I do not know the answer because I returned the item"?

Every time I see an "answer" like this I wonder - why do they bother replying at all?

I wonder why people bother digging up old dead threads to add nothing new, let alone worthwhile, to the discussion or post about their problems with analog cables in a thread about HDMI. I guess we will both have to live with our disappointment.

[pandy]

[*]Another instance of cable variance was HDMI cable from my computer to the monitor. Occasionally I would get rips and sort of unsync'd frames. It was very noticeable and unsettling. It went away after I changed the cable. Again, it did not look any better or more expensive. Wrong impedance? Bad shielding? Both are short 3-foot and 6-foot cables.
Now, explain that

lot of words but lack of information - your issue may be purely mechanical one - plug may be to short and connection can be flimsy somehow - common issue for HDMI connection is insufficient length of plug vs socket (frequently too recessed, obstructed by some mask) and there is no firm connection.
at first verify if your HDMI socket isn't recessed too much when compared to plug length... (plug and socket specifications may be helpful)

[dellsam34]

I'm for reviving an old thread that addresses a specific subject or a request that never fulfilled and someone dig it up and solves its mystery, However I don't see it in this instance. The thread served its purpose and by reading few posts it achieved its goal that HDMI is digital and cable price has no effect on the integrity of the signal it carries as long as the cable is physically built to standard, well shielded and have a firm connection.

[jagabo]

Another instance of cable variance was HDMI cable from my computer to the monitor. Occasionally I would get rips and sort of unsync'd frames. It was very noticeable and unsettling... Now, explain that

Nobody has said that an HDMI cable can't be bad. But when one is bad the symptoms aren't subtle things like a little loss of contrast or change of brightness, a little fuzzy, a slight change of colors, or light ghosting. Those are problems you can only get with analog cables. The problems with bad, or marginal HDMI cables tend to be very obvious things like flickering pixels, sync errors, or complete loss of picture. It sounds like you were were seeing exactly that type of problem.

[usually_quiet]

The problems with bad, or marginal HDMI cables tend to be very obvious things like flickering pixels, sync errors, or complete loss of picture. It sounds like you were were seeing exactly that type of problem.

This is the first time I have seen anything indicating that sync errors or "rips" (tearing?) could be caused by a damaged or defective HDMI cable.

Twinkling pixels or complete loss of picture are common problems with HDMI, most often caused by a cable that is too long to deliver an adequate signal.

[jagabo]

The problems with bad, or marginal HDMI cables tend to be very obvious things like flickering pixels, sync errors, or complete loss of picture. It sounds like you were were seeing exactly that type of problem.

This is the first time I have seen anything indicating that sync errors or "rips" (tearing?) could be caused by a damaged or defective HDMI cable.

It seems logical to me that a marginal clock signal could cause "rips and sort of unsync'd frames."

[usually_quiet]

The problems with bad, or marginal HDMI cables tend to be very obvious things like flickering pixels, sync errors, or complete loss of picture. It sounds like you were were seeing exactly that type of problem.

This is the first time I have seen anything indicating that sync errors or "rips" (tearing?) could be caused by a damaged or defective HDMI cable.

It seems logical to me that a marginal clock signal could cause "rips and sort of unsync'd frames."

I'm guessing that I have not heard of these problems being associated with HDMI before now only because TMDS was designed to be a very robust system.

[jagabo]

I'm guessing that I have not heard of these problems being associated with HDMI before now only because TMDS was designed to be a very robust system.

My guess is that the line between working and total failure is very narrow. So it's rare for a cable to be bad enough to cause sync problems but not bad enough to cause a complete failure.

[DB83]

Digging up a 8 yr old topic is rather moot. The comment about the HDMI cable almost appears as an after-thought and hardly added anything to the discussion which had been 'solved' way back then.

Then there is a middle section that has, to quote my Auntie, Ethel to do with the topic.


Maybe I read too much into this and maybe it was a bad choice of words. But considering the opening remarks what came first the chicken or the egg ?. Did our 'expert' find this ancient thread since he had a problem with a cable and then wondered why a contributor had been banned. Yet he specifically mentions only one by name and there is another in this thread who was also banned some years ago.


Or was he specifically looking for an individual, stumble across the topic (which is how I read this) and then instantly hijack the topic apart from the 'after-thought'.


Now explain that !!!!


PS. For some odd reason this topic is not marked as 'old'

[pandy]

The problems with bad, or marginal HDMI cables tend to be very obvious things like flickering pixels, sync errors, or complete loss of picture. It sounds like you were were seeing exactly that type of problem.

This is the first time I have seen anything indicating that sync errors or "rips" (tearing?) could be caused by a damaged or defective HDMI cable.

It seems logical to me that a marginal clock signal could cause "rips and sort of unsync'd frames."

I'm guessing that I have not heard of these problems being associated with HDMI before now only because TMDS was designed to be a very robust system.

Everything you described depends on HDMI receiver implementation quality (error immunity, resilience and concealment), you may see different things on screen - some HDMI receivers may have more robust HW implementation, some may have better firmware (if they use some form of the DSP in frontend).
There is no sense to speculate how receiver behave in presence of transmission errors - cables can be uniquely characterized by using for example eye pattern diagram and if HDMI timing requirements are meet (confirmed by eye pattern for example) then even telephone wire can act as HDMI cable.
Receivers may use additional methods to deal with transmission errors (bad signal quality) and as such they may outperform pure HDMI specification so even bad or faulty cable may give no visible sign of the signal deterioration but also this mean that simple eye pattern may be not enough to describe their quality (they may deal with different errors uniquely).

https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_data...MI_signals.pdf
https://www.nxp.com/docs/en/application-note/AN4671.pdf
https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~gifford/5830-AWL/Anritsu%20Eye%20Diagram.pdf
https://www.fpga4fun.com/files/HDMI_Demystified_rev_1_02.pdf

btw - TMDS is nothing special... many high speed digital interfaces use some form of coding and they may outperform TMDS in terms of efficiency (Noisy-channel coding/Shannon's theorem).

[usually_quiet]

Digging up a 8 yr old topic is rather moot. The comment about the HDMI cable almost appears as an after-thought and hardly added anything to the discussion which had been 'solved' way back then.

Then there is a middle section that has, to quote my Auntie, Ethel to do with the topic.


Maybe I read too much into this and maybe it was a bad choice of words. But considering the opening remarks what came first the chicken or the egg ?. Did our 'expert' find this ancient thread since he had a problem with a cable and then wondered why a contributor had been banned. Yet he specifically mentions only one by name and there is another in this thread who was also banned some years ago.


Or was he specifically looking for an individual, stumble across the topic (which is how I read this) and then instantly hijack the topic apart from the 'after-thought'.


Now explain that !!!!


PS. For some odd reason this topic is not marked as 'old'

This is the second thread from 2008 that I encountered in the past week because they had been exhumed by this member. The first had the old thread warning. I don't know if there are any more. We have had other members who look for threads about topics that interest them and then proceed to "correct" or "improve" them no matter how old they are.

[ConsumerDV]

Regarding hijacking, the rules read, "Please try to stick to the author's first post in each topic". The first topic of this thread reads, "I need some HDMI cables and wondering about cheap thin cables vs. the thicker ones with extra shielding. ... Any specs I should pay attention too ?" I believe my post was relevant, at least partially (feel free to disregard the boring anecdote about an analog RCA cable). I did experience glitches with one cable, and the glitches stopped with I replaced it with another cable, and visually they are not very different. I was recommended to verify that the HDMI socket isn't recessed too much when compared to plug length - thank you for the tip, @pandy.

The rules do not prohibit reviving old topics. The rules recommend using the search, as it "can yield rich rewards as most questions have already been previously answered". When I perform a search I prefer to find fewer longer topics to finding a large number of shorter topics because I open then all in tabs, and I have a zillion tabs in my browser already. Thus I consider reviving old topics useful and will continue to do so as I see fit.

I understand that using the Report button "if you feel another member has posted, or sent a PM, that is against the rules" makes one feel like one is in middle school again, and precludes other people from seeing one's witty remarks. Who wants to abide by silly scriptures like "no comments about specific Moderators or members please" or "no personal comments or feedback please", when one sees a chance to foster camaraderie and strengthen groupthink. I am not an adamant follower of this rule myself. I have never been shy of a lively discussion, especially if it is on topic. @DB83, why did you say that the original discussion had been 'solved' (sic!)? Was it solved or not? I must have missed your thoughts on my HDMI cable debacle. Maybe your auntie Ethel can help?

To return back to the original topic: regarding my HDMI cable issue, I don't remember the details now, but I think I replaced a 1920x1200 monitor from one brand with a 2.5K monitor from another brand but reused the same HDMI cable. I did not see glitches with the old monitor but saw them with the new one. A different cable fixed it. Well, to a point. Higher refresh rates are still glitchy, but I am not a gamer, so 60Hz works. Regarding thickness, the cable that worked better is thinner. I do not expect it to render grass or sky more authentic than the old one, there are limits to what an HDMI cable can do.

[usually_quiet]

To return back to the original topic: regarding my HDMI cable issue, I don't remember the details now, but I think I replaced a 1920x1200 monitor from one brand with a 2.5K monitor from another brand but reused the same HDMI cable. I did not see glitches with the old monitor but saw them with the new one. A different cable fixed it. Well, to a point. Higher refresh rates are still glitchy, but I am not a gamer, so 60Hz works. Regarding thickness, the cable that worked better is thinner. I do not expect it to render grass or sky more authentic than the old one, there are limits to what an HDMI cable can do.

Well, thank heavens, a question at last, although jagabo already provided an accurate answer and a complete explanation for the problems described in your original question about HDMI.

Since it escaped your notice somehow, even in 2008, the relative thickness of the cable was only a rule of thumb for guessing the quality of a cheap, generic HDMI cable. Passing certification for sale as a High-Speed HDMI cable was a better indicator that a cable was well-designed for its purpose.

Your current 2K monitor would likely work at higher refresh rates with a cable that is certified for the 18 Gbit/s maximum bandwidth of the HDMI 2.0 specification. They are sometimes sold as Premium High-Speed HDMI Cables or 4K HDMI cables, designations that didn't exist in 2008. ...but I guess that you would rather complain about the problem than fix it.

[ConsumerDV]

Your current 2K monitor would likely work at higher refresh rates with a cable that is certified for the 18 Gbit/s maximum bandwidth of the HDMI 2.0 specification. They are sometimes sold as Premium High-Speed HDMI Cables or 4K HDMI cables, designations that didn't exist in 2008.

Thank you! I appreciate the answer! Googled for 18 Gbit/s HDMI cable, the very first Amazon link showed me the page that said, "Last purchased May 28, 2019". Ok then, I guess this is the one that works. I am still grateful for your reply!

[pandy]

To return back to the original topic: regarding my HDMI cable issue, I don't remember the details now, but I think I replaced a 1920x1200 monitor from one brand with a 2.5K monitor from another brand but reused the same HDMI cable. I did not see glitches with the old monitor but saw them with the new one. A different cable fixed it. Well, to a point. Higher refresh rates are still glitchy, but I am not a gamer, so 60Hz works. Regarding thickness, the cable that worked better is thinner. I do not expect it to render grass or sky more authentic than the old one, there are limits to what an HDMI cable can do.

Once again - visibility of the issue on one display and not on another may be (or not) related with cable quality (this is guessing). Cable thickness means nothing nowadays as commonly thick cables are thick not because of the wire thickness but due to insulation thickness, also our Chinese brothers are so skilled that frequently cable wire are made not from copper but for example from plated steel... i saw many cables where you can't solder wire with help of the most aggressive flux i have (ammonium chloride)... El cheapo cables usually pass bare minimum requirements and that's all - they deteriorate with time sometimes they pins are not even gold plated (or gold plating is so minuscule that it is translucent). Anyway it is quite important to remember that if you are using gold plated connectors then is is not recommended to combine them with tin plated equipment as at some point gold will be dissolved by tin (and this may be one of sources for signal issues - not cable itself but overall degradation of all contact points) - usually this can be confirmed by reinserting few times cable plugs - if signal improve then it is because contact improved.

[usually_quiet]

Your current 2K monitor would likely work at higher refresh rates with a cable that is certified for the 18 Gbit/s maximum bandwidth of the HDMI 2.0 specification. They are sometimes sold as Premium High-Speed HDMI Cables or 4K HDMI cables, designations that didn't exist in 2008.

Thank you! I appreciate the answer! Googled for 18 Gbit/s HDMI cable, the very first Amazon link showed me the page that said, "Last purchased May 28, 2019". Ok then, I guess this is the one that works. I am still grateful for your reply!

One more thing: Today "2K' usually means a QHD/1440p (2560×1440) display but technically it only means a display where the width is something close to 2,000-pixels. Successful QHD resolution output with a refresh rate of 75Hz or greater can require a video graphics adapter (and a monitor) with an HDMI 2.0a, HDMI 2.0b, or even an HDMI 2.1 port, depending on the video's chroma subsampling.