15;11 vs 4:3 aspect ratio

[Hypersonic1]

Whenever I export 720x480 footage in Premiere Pro, the video file plays back in VLC at 720x528 (15:11) rather than 720x540 (4:3). The other option is to convert to square pixels at 640x480, but I eventually want to export to DVD. What is up with the strange aspect ratios?

[newpball]

Check the pixel aspect ratio (PAR) something got messed up there as 720x528 (square) = NTSC (anamorphic) scaled.

[poisondeathray]

That is "normal" for ITU aspect ratios.

It's a big discussion, but the very short version is there are 2 different AR interpretations, ITU and non ITU. NTSC DV DAR is ~1.3636 (10:11 PAR), not 1.3333. All NLE's and broadcast use ITU interpretation

If you want a short explanation, read this (it's down right now, but it's archived on the Wayback Machine)
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/cmg_keyframes/story/par_for_the_course/

If you want a long explanation, there are several hundred page threads discussing aspect ratios in various forums...

[manono]

If the end result is to be a DVD what do you care how it plays back at some intermediate stage? You won't have the problem once it's encoded as MPEG-2. Just make sure it comes out the other end as 720x480 and then encode as 4:3.

[Hypersonic1]

If the end result is to be a DVD what do you care how it plays back at some intermediate stage? You won't have the problem once it's encoded as MPEG-2. Just make sure it comes out the other end as 720x480 and then encode as 4:3.

I don't want there to be black bars.

[LMotlow]

Then you're in for a lifetime of frustration and disappointment. There is no way to display a 4:3 image on a 16:9 panel without black borders somewhere, or without distorting and/or cropping the image. Sorry. Nothing anyone can do about that.

[smrpix]

I don't want there to be black bars.

If it's a 4:3 movie there won't be black bars in the encode. If there are black bars when you watch it on a 16:9 TV, use the zoom control of your TV.

If you want to crop your movie to 16:9 (not recommended,) set up your Premiere project as 16:9 and do your cropping/panning/zooming there where you have more control.

[Hypersonic1]

I am talking about on a 4:3 display. Even if I do a slight crop, it is still not the same shape any more. Why is Premiere Pro forcing me to change the aspect ratio? The videos are 4:3 720x480, and outputting 15:11 720x480, which displays differently.

[Hypersonic1]

If it's a 4:3 movie there won't be black bars in the encode. If there are black bars when you watch it on a 16:9 TV, use the zoom control of your TV.

It's not a 4:3, it's a 15:11 when I export, so there will be little black bars. I want to maintain 4:3.

[smrpix]

https://wiki.videolan.org/Change_the_aspect_ratio/

You can force the aspect ratio in VLC.

Which version of Premiere are you using? I ask because they changed their interpretation of ITU many versions back.

You should have no problems with your "eventual" export to DVD.

[LMotlow]

If it's a 4:3 movie there won't be black bars in the encode. If there are black bars when you watch it on a 16:9 TV, use the zoom control of your TV.

It's not a 4:3, it's a 15:11 when I export, so there will be little black bars. I want to maintain 4:3.

OK, so:
4:3 = 1.333:1.
15:11 = 1.36:1
They are pretty close to the same thing. If the original image is really a 1.363636:1 image, then it's a movie filmed in the "classic" Hollywood aspect ratio of 1.37:1. That aspect ratio is slightly wider than 1:333:1 (Hollywood never made movies at 4:3 -- 4:3 was for TV only). Because the original image itself is slightly wider than 4:3, small black borders ('mini-letterbox") are in the displayed movie. If you change the image size of every movie you own, from square-frame 16mm silent movie to Todd_AO, you're going to spend a lot of time re-encoding to avoid any kind of black pixels.

[Hypersonic1]

I am using CS6. CC does not seem to have this problem. However, I was having flickering problems with CC when applying contrast controls like Luma Curve, not talking about auto controls.

I know how to change the aspect ratio in VLC. I just want to maintain the same aspect ratio when I export.

[Hypersonic1]

If it's a 4:3 movie there won't be black bars in the encode. If there are black bars when you watch it on a 16:9 TV, use the zoom control of your TV.

It's not a 4:3, it's a 15:11 when I export, so there will be little black bars. I want to maintain 4:3.

OK, so:
4:3 = 1.333:1.
15:11 = 1.36:1
They are pretty close to the same thing. If the original image is really a 1.363636:1 image, then it's a movie filmed in the "classic" Hollywood aspect ratio of 1.37:1. That aspect ratio is slightly wider than 1:333:1 (Hollywood never made movies at 4:3 -- 4:3 was for TV only). Because the original image itself is slightly wider than 4:3, small black borders ('mini-letterbox") are in the displayed movie. If you change the image size of every movie you own, from square-frame 16mm silent movie to Todd_AO, you're going to spend a lot of time re-encoding to avoid any kind of black pixels.

This is not Hollywood. This videos were recorded on VHS-C and 8mm.

[smrpix]

This is not Hollywood. This videos were recorded on VHS-C and 8mm.

How did you import them into Premiere? As long as you are in a 720x480 project don't worry about what VLC is doing, don't worry about non-square pixels. Bring your timeline directly into Encore and make a 4:3 DVD. (Use the right-click/interpret footage function if you want to test different pixel ratios.) It will be fine.

[LMotlow]

That's correct. Different editors and players will interpret un-encoded video in different ways. And remember, on a PC you're editing/viewing in square pixels. If you encode 720x480 DVD at 4:3 DAR, it should play as intended.

If your PC media player doesn't handle decoded video exactly right, you can force them and VirtualDub to display 4:3 (or whatever) in their user menus.

[jagabo]

Crop 8 pixels off the left and right borders leaving a 704x480 frame. That's what the ITU spec is based on.

DAR = FAR * SAR

DAR = Display Aspect Ratio
FAR = Frame Aspect Ratio
SAR = Sample Aspect Ratio

DAR = 704:480 * 10:11
DAR = 704 / 480 * 10 / 11
DAR = 1.333333...

DAR = 720:480 * 10:11
DAR = 720 / 480 * 10 / 11
DAR = 1.363636...

Or leave the frame at 720x480 and set the DAR to 4:3 or SAR to 8:9. That's what most commercial DVDs do. Ie, they ignore the ITU spec and assume the MPEG 2 spec.

[Hypersonic1]

Crop 8 pixels off the left and right borders leaving a 704x480 frame. That's what the ITU spec is based on.

That fixed it. However, I thought TVs were 720x480. I still don't understand this.

[smrpix]

Crop 8 pixels off the left and right borders leaving a 704x480 frame. That's what the ITU spec is based on.

That fixed it. However, I thought TVs were 720x480. I still don't understand this.

Nope. Standard Def analog NTSC TVs are ~320-800x525. Bet that makes it even more confusing. The 720x480 raster size is an accommodation to pre-existing NTSC standards and digital expediency.