What madVR can and cannot do

[DiscoPedo]

Hello everyone. I will be buying a tv to connect to a pc that has all my media on it. I plan on installing Kodi and using madVR, but I am unsure of what madVR can and cannot do. In reviewing tv specs while shopping around, I don't want to focus on a spec with a poor score unneccesarily if its something madVR can fix.

Will madVR be able to possibly:

1. improve the tv's contrast ratio?
2. improve the tv's black uniformity?
3. improve the tv's grey uniformity?
4. improve the tv's ability to prevent judder?
5. improve the tv's upscaling ability?
6. interpolate 24fps video up to a higher framerate?
7. interpolate 30fps video up to a higher framerate?
8. interpolate 60fps video up to a higher framerate?
9. improve the tv's color accuracy?
10. expand the tv's color gamut?
11. improve the tv's peak brightness?
12. improve the way the tv handles motion blur?
13. allow my tv to support HDR10 when it wasn't made to?
14. allow my tv to support Dolby Vision when it wasn't made to?


I think the answers to 1-3, and 10 & 11 are all "no", the answers to 4, 5 & 9 are "yes", and for the others I have no idea. I numbered them so its easier for those kind enough to respond (they can just put the # and a Y or N). Please excuse me if this is a naive question, I am a total noob here.Thanks for your time.

[theewizard]

MadVR cannot do anything to the TV

what MadVr or any other render engine can do for you play back, is try to compensate the video for what the deficiencies are in the video
it has NO control over what the TV does

if zero code black is not black on the TV, trying to make it blacker in the video will do nothing

to do this right, you get the TV that LOOKS best to you, with the BEST specs you can afford

then you calibrate it, then you adjust video play back IF it is needed

does the fridge control how you cook food in the microwave

[pandy]

Will madVR be able to possibly:

1. improve the tv's contrast ratio?
2. improve the tv's black uniformity?
3. improve the tv's grey uniformity?
4. improve the tv's ability to prevent judder?
5. improve the tv's upscaling ability?

I dont think so however it may be feasible with other software way to compensate for some TV problems (by applying pre-equalization to linearize some distortions - i can imagine some 2D processing)

6. interpolate 24fps video up to a higher framerate?
7. interpolate 30fps video up to a higher framerate?
8. interpolate 60fps video up to a higher framerate?

Nope but there is software that can be used together with madVR to achieve some motion interpolation (SVP - AFAIR)

9. improve the tv's color accuracy?
10. expand the tv's color gamut?
11. improve the tv's peak brightness?
12. improve the way the tv handles motion blur?
13. allow my tv to support HDR10 when it wasn't made to?
14. allow my tv to support Dolby Vision when it wasn't made to?

I think the answers to 1-3, and 10 & 11 are all "no", the answers to 4, 5 & 9 are "yes", and for the others I have no idea. I numbered them so its easier for those kind enough to respond (they can just put the # and a Y or N). Please excuse me if this is a naive question, I am a total noob here.Thanks for your time.

Some thing may be improved probably in software way but some things are purely physical limitations (peak brightness for example).

In theory if you have sufficient number of pixels and sufficient number of time you can do a lot - real case scenario is that you have no sufficient number of pixels and no sufficient number of time.

[DiscoPedo]

Thank you both for responding. I think I should clarify. The tv will only be used for watching media played off this particular pc, that's it. I should have worded the post better, I understand that a software program is not going to change the technical attributes of the tv (I'm a noob, not an idiot), but I'm more concerned with the end results that will be achieved with the setup I'll be using rather than how great a tv I am buying. I understand getting a decent tv is still important, but the lines blur for me in regard to what the software can and cannot compensate for with said tv.

I am considering buying the Samsung J6200, but one of the things it is known to have an issue with is preventing judder. From rtings.com (http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/j6200):

"There is no judder when a movie is outputted at 24p (like via a Blu-ray player). Over 60i or 60p though (like on cable), the TV can't always do the reverse 3:2 pulldown correctly."

From what I understand, madVR can compensate for this. From madvr.com (on the homepage, under product features):

"smooth motion playback without 3:2 pulldown judder even at 60Hz"

So if my tv is connected to a pc using madVR, I shouldn't have to worry about my tv having trouble with judder when playing media off the pc (which is all the tv will ever be used for), regardless of the signal output because madVR will correct the problem, right? Therefore, I shouldn't be concerned with the tv's poor performance in that area, since I'll only be using it with madVR, right?

If so, what other specs should I not concern myself with because madVR will compensate? I ask because I might find a tv with better specs where they count for what I am trying to do.

[pandy]

I would search for TV capable to display 120Hz formats.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-usage/pc-monitor/best

[DiscoPedo]

Yeah, I did consider going with a tv that has a true 120hz refresh rate...even though Samsung lists this tv as having a 120hz refresh rate, we all know that its really 60hz (that is said to be) achieving 120hz with the assistance of their proprietary technology (I forgot what they call theirs). According to the rtings website, when they tested the tv it actually did achieve 120hz this way though. A true 120hz tv, when compared to a 60hz should (theoretically) deal with motion blur better and not have any interpolation issues, but according to the website, the Samsung J6200 outperformed all the tvs on that list when it came to motion blur (and, to my knowledge, if I will be using madVR whenever I use the tv, I shouldn't have a problem with interpolation). I just hoped there would be a resident madVR expert here who could chime in. The official support thread for madVR is on Doom9, but I have to wait 4 more days before I can ask my question there (the newly registered have to wait 5 days before they are allowed to post). Guess I'm not buying my tv this weekend after all Oh well. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, pandy.

[theewizard]

,

"There is no judder when a movie is outputted at 24p (like via a Blu-ray player). Over 60i or 60p though (like on cable), the TV can't always do the reverse 3:2 pulldown correctly."

From what I understand, madVR can compensate for this. From madvr.com (on the homepage, under product features):

"smooth motion playback without 3:2 pulldown judder even at 60Hz"

So if my tv is connected to a pc using madVR, I shouldn't have to worry about my tv having trouble with judder when playing media off the pc (which is all the tv will ever be used for), regardless of the signal output because madVR will correct the problem, right? Therefore, I shouldn't be concerned with the tv's poor performance in that area, since I'll only be using it with madVR, right?

60hz is the refresh rate, if MadVr does the pull down to 24f and sends the video to the TV at 24f
then you are watching smooth 24f not 60i

if madvr is sending 60i to the TV over hdmi, that is not any different than 60i out of a cable box on hdmi to the tv

IF the TV has trouble with 60i or 60p then it is going to have trouble with the PC output of the same signal coming from madvr

I will note that you should go back and read those reviews closely
Was this cable connection hdmi or component video ?
I have never heard of a TV having judder with a direct HDMI input signal from a quality source
But component video from cable box to TV that's another different story
Cable is not know for high quality

[DiscoPedo]

60hz is the refresh rate, if MadVr does the pull down to 24f and sends the video to the TV at 24f then you are watching smooth 24f not 60i

if madvr is sending 60i to the TV over hdmi, that is not any different than 60i out of a cable box on hdmi to the tv

IF the TV has trouble with 60i or 60p then it is going to have trouble with the PC output of the same signal coming from madvr

Makes sense, but then how can madVR claim: "smooth motion playback without 3:2 pulldown judder even at 60Hz"?

From http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/movies/judder/24p:

"The cause of judder on 24p via 60p/60i video

If you’re watching a movie off of cable, or from a PC, you may see judder even if your TV can play movies from 24 hz sources judder-free.

The problem: the signal being sent from the cable box or PC is likely 60 hz (either 60p or 60i), so even though the movie is 24 hz, your TV is registering a 60 hz signal. This means telecine (3:2 pulldown) is altering the frame rate of the 24 fps video so that it is 60 fps, which could create judder."

The statement "smooth motion playback without 3:2 pulldown judder even at 60Hz", seems to imply that even if the signal output is 60hz, madVR can prevent judder.

I will note that you should go back and read those reviews closely. Was this cable connection hdmi or component video ?

They didn't explicitly state, they just focused on the signal itself, which would lead me to believe the end result would be the same no matter which was used.

I have never heard of a TV having judder with a direct HDMI input signal from a quality source

Its not the quality of the source though, and Samsung tvs are known to have this problem.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/movies/judder/24p See section: "The cause of judder on 24p video"

But component video from cable box to TV that's another different story

Yeah, I would be going directly from the pc to the tv via HDMI.

Thanks for responding.

[jagabo]

The statement "smooth motion playback without 3:2 pulldown judder even at 60Hz", seems to imply that even if the signal output is 60hz, madVR can prevent judder.

From what I've read, madvr uses frame blending rather than motion interpolation.

http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Madvr_expert_guide

In my opinion, that's worse than 3:2 frame repeat judder.

But if you want motion interpolation why don't you just use SVP?

https://www.svp-team.com/wiki/Main_Page

I'd prefer smooth motion over jerky 24 fps film (with or without judder). but I don't think any platform does it well enough to be watchable. Their are too many distortions and errors.

[DiscoPedo]

Interesting. Thanks for the links, I'll check it out.

EDITED FOR GRAMMAR

[theewizard]

Remember madvr is on the PC, All the claims have to do with a PC and PC monitor
With the monitor being driven by the PCs display card

If this TV will never be used as a TV
You might consider getting a PC monitor to be your PC monitor, not a TV

[DiscoPedo]

Remember madvr is on the PC, All the claims have to do with a PC and PC monitor With the monitor being driven by the PCs display card

But if I had the tv hooked up instead of a monitor, wouldn't it achieve the same results?

If this TV will never be used as a TV You might consider getting a PC monitor to be your PC monitor, not a TV

The tv would only be used to play media off the pc. The tv would be dedicated to the pc, the pc would be dedicated to media storage (I have a different pc which I go online with). So I'll essentially be using the old pc like a NAS, but want a large screen for movies (I'm looking at the 55 or 60 inch model Samsung).

[theewizard]

A monitor is designed with one function, be a monitor
A TV is a mass market compromise
Some display attributes are different
And you might be happier with a monitor vs TV in this situation
Me, if the Samsung judder reviews bothered me
I would not buy Samsung, I would buy something else that did not have that complaint
Instead of trying to find a way to fix, before buying it
Now if I bought it , found the problem and could not return it, then I would try to create a work around fix
But...Why walk into a problem, if it can be avoided, be happy, get something that does not have the judder

[DiscoPedo]

A monitor is designed with one function, be a monitor. A TV is a mass market compromise

Yeah, but tell that to all the home theater pc enthusiasts out there. There are a lot of people out there who have pc media centers connected to tvs in their living rooms.

Why walk into a problem, if it can be avoided, be happy, get something that does not have the judder

Its not a problem if there is a solution. This tv has really good specs in all the other areas that are important to me, and based on my budget, I'll have to compromise on something no matter what tv I buy (which is why I am trying to figure out which specs I don't have to worry about compromising on because there are ways to work around it, which pretty much brings us full circle to why I posted in the first place). I'm just trying to figure out what madVR can compensate for based on the setup I mentioned, and what it cannot.

[theewizard]

Well it seems to me this pull down judder is a significant problem
It's not going to be changed by madvr
If madvr can do the pull down and out put 24f without any 60i indicators .?
And the TV plays it smooth.. OK
But your watching 24f not 60i or 60p
If you want to watch 60i or 60p
Then you need a TV/monitor that will display that
You are playing files from the PC
What is the frame rate of the files that is your deciding point
If your files are 25f pal, or 29.976 nstc then there is no 60i pull down to worry about

[DiscoPedo]

I'd say its significant, yes. If I can confirm without a doubt that madVR cannot compensate for this then I do need to start looking at a different tv (hello, madVR experts - are you out there? Paging Mathias, come in Mathias...).

EDIT:

What is the frame rate of the files that is your deciding point

Good point, what madVR can and cannot do in this instance may very well be irrelevant. I would have to take a look at my library, it may in fact be a moot point (I didn't encode all the media myself, so I don't know).

You lost me on the bit about wanting to watch 60p...

If madvr can do the pull down and out put 24f without any 60i indicators .?
And the TV plays it smooth.. OK
But your watching 24f not 60i or 60p
If you want to watch 60i or 60p
Then you need a TV/monitor that will display that

Any tv will convert a 60p signal to 24, correct? Its just a question of whether or not it does it successfully...

[usually_quiet]

Hello everyone. I will be buying a tv to connect to a pc that has all my media on it. I plan on installing Kodi and using madVR, but I am unsure of what madVR can and cannot do. In reviewing tv specs while shopping around, I don't want to focus on a spec with a poor score unneccesarily if its something madVR can fix.

Will madVR be able to possibly:

1. improve the tv's contrast ratio?
2. improve the tv's black uniformity?
3. improve the tv's grey uniformity?
4. improve the tv's ability to prevent judder?
5. improve the tv's upscaling ability?
6. interpolate 24fps video up to a higher framerate?
7. interpolate 30fps video up to a higher framerate?
8. interpolate 60fps video up to a higher framerate?
9. improve the tv's color accuracy?
10. expand the tv's color gamut?
11. improve the tv's peak brightness?
12. improve the way the tv handles motion blur?
13. allow my tv to support HDR10 when it wasn't made to?
14. allow my tv to support Dolby Vision when it wasn't made to?


I think the answers to 1-3, and 10 & 11 are all "no", the answers to 4, 5 & 9 are "yes", and for the others I have no idea. I numbered them so its easier for those kind enough to respond (they can just put the # and a Y or N). Please excuse me if this is a naive question, I am a total noob here.Thanks for your time.

5. Software can upscale, but a modern flat screen TV from a major brand usually does a decent job.

4, 6, 7: Already covered by others, but software can detelecine (helpful if the TV has a 24p mode), frame blend or frame interpolate (could be helpful if the TV has no 24p mode, but not everyone likes this solution) to minimize judder. That being said, only a percentage of the population is sensitive to judder. I for one usually don't notice it.

8. An HDTV's video connections don't support higher than 60 fps.

You are correct. Software on the PC cannot help with 1-3 or 9-14. These are largely built-in to the TV. Proper calibration normally improves the TV's color accuracy, but sometimes even the professionals employed at a TV rating site are unable to adequately calibrate a particular model.

[DiscoPedo]

Thank you for speaking up usually_quiet! I'm still reading through the info in the links jagabo sent, but its starting to get clearer for me. I think I need to do more research and get a better understanding of how interpolation works.