How to add transparency to a video clip?

[budwzr]

Hahaha. Can MEP import still sequences?

I'm not sure, never tried it. If you send me a small example I'll let you know.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Just look in the "open" or "import" window and see what kind of things can be brought in.

[poisondeathray]

I haven't looked at jagabo's but I think it's because AVI v1.0 vs. AVI v2.0 / OpenDML . The former might have problems >2.0 GB or sometimes > 4.0GB in some programs. You can open it up in vdub and direct stream copy it into an AVI 2.0 container

Or jagabo mentioned lagarith - if MEP accepts lagarith (you would need lagarith installed), that' s another option for smaller filesize.

Test this lagarith sample file

[terrypin]

I wish we could get a definitive answer as to what exactly MEP supports. I don't want to install a trial because they spam you to death afterward, and I don't want any TSR's on my editing computer.

FWIW I've uploaded the manual here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/MEP2013%20Manual.pdf


--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

Hahaha. Can MEP import still sequences?

I'm not sure, never tried it. If you send me a small example I'll let you know.

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Just look in the "open" or "import" window and see what kind of things can be brought in.

Doesn't work that way. You don't get advance notice. You import a file and should get a message if it's unacceptable.
File > Open tells you nothing useful:



--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

I haven't looked at jagabo's but I think it's because AVI v1.0 vs. AVI v2.0 / OpenDML . The former might have problems >2.0 GB or sometimes > 4.0GB in some programs. You can open it up in vdub and direct stream copy it into an AVI 2.0 container

Or jagabo mentioned lagarith - if MEP accepts lagarith (you would need lagarith installed), that' s another option for smaller filesize.

Test this lagarith sample file

The Lagarith loads and can be played but I'm puzzled why (at full timescale zoom) it appears to be less than 2 frames long?

I'll try Vdub conversion shortly.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[poisondeathray]

The Lagarith loads and can be played but I'm puzzled why (at full timescale zoom) it appears to be less than 2 frames long?

It was only 2 frames , to see if lagarith was compatible with MEP (lagarith is a common lossless intermediate used in windows programs) - if it's not compatible, there is no use uploading the complete file

I'll upload a fixed timing clock in lagarith in case anyone else wants to use it for their own project, but looking at your youtube video, you probably want more time increments in the animation represented, not fewer . Maybe even a realtime clock with seconds

Just my opinion - but this is a simple plain clock. It might be suitable for something like a cartoon sketch. I would use a clock face that matches the content more appropriately

[terrypin]

I wish the OP would ...

OP? In case you hadn't noticed, I'm in the room and and quite accessible! The name's in my sig...

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

I haven't looked at jagabo's but I think it's because AVI v1.0 vs. AVI v2.0 / OpenDML . The former might have problems >2.0 GB or sometimes > 4.0GB in some programs. You can open it up in vdub and direct stream copy it into an AVI 2.0 container

Success! After saving in what VDub 1.9.11 calls Old Format AVI, PDR-Uncomp-Premult-BW.avi now works fine thanks.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

I haven't looked at jagabo's but I think it's because AVI v1.0 vs. AVI v2.0 / OpenDML . The former might have problems >2.0 GB or sometimes > 4.0GB in some programs. You can open it up in vdub and direct stream copy it into an AVI 2.0 container

Success! After saving in what VDub 1.9.11 calls Old Format AVI, PDR-Uncomp-Premult-BW.avi now works fine thanks.

Except for the '2 hours every 60 minutes' error that jagabo spotted. I think that's true of all the clocks, alpha and non-alpha, that have been discussed so far, based on the original I found at
http://www.motionbackgroundsforfree.com/technology-free-backgrounds/free-technology-ba...-passing-time/

The only correctly synced clock I found was the recorded, yellowish one I showed in post #15. I'll probably search for more, (although free ones of good quality seem hard to find) because I've now finally worked out how to use what I've previously called the 'alpha sandwich' technique, but which PDR has told me is properly called 'luna matte'. That extends my choice over animated and recorded clock videos. And with much lower file sizes (unless converted with Lagarith). The downside is that I need to use chroma key on my clock, an extra step avoided with the alpha channel types, but that's not really a big deal in practice.

It seems MEP users are rare here. But for any that does end up in this thread with a similar question about using transparency in MEP, here's a summary of how I did it:






Thanks for all the help, especially from PDR and jagabo; it's been a terrific learning exercise.


--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[poisondeathray]

Yes, even the latest one I uploaded is messed up too

Here is a loopable fixed timing-sync one (for sure this time ) , with tick marks and a black outline frame.


Now how about that Andy Murray guy

[terrypin]

Yes, even the latest one I uploaded is messed up too

Here is a loopable fixed timing-sync one (for sure this time ) , with tick marks and a black outline frame.

Thanks, runs sweetly in sync and looks good in white with the border. But 'canvas' doesn't seem high enough?

Oh, and would it be possible to shorten the minute hand a bit, so that it doesn't significantly overlap the numerals?

Er, also (you did say I should be very specific about what I wanted!), would a 25 fps version be possible please, which is my usual my project standard? Presumably your 30 fps is why the minute hand doesn't consistently advance one minute per frame.

Now how about that Andy Murray guy

My nerves wouldn't take the strain after a while. Had to repeatedly take a break and come here upstairs and play with my clocks.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[poisondeathray]

The embedded alpha is not working in your screenshot (it shouldn't be "white" around the clock)

Are you sure these 2 videos worked ok "automatically"
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/357196-How-to-add-transparency-to-a-video-clip?p=22...=1#post2252633

The only difference is this last one was saved with AVI2.0, and lagarith compression


Or did this one work ok ?
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/357196-How-to-add-transparency-to-a-video-clip?p=22...=1#post2252802

" fixed_lagarith_AVI2.0.avi.7z" was the same, except premultiplied alpha, (just the timing was messed up)

[poisondeathray]

This is what it should look like , notice it's "transparent" around the clock, not black



There is a thin black border

Your screenshot shows the image without the embedded alpha (it's disregarding the alpha)

Or was it AVI 2.0 MEP has a problem with ? Did you need AVI 1.0 ( you mentioned something about vdub "old format AVI" ) ?

[poisondeathray]

If it helps to explain, I've attached the "luma matte" or MEP calls it the "alpha keying object" . Just extend it the length of the video. When you do the "sandwich" technique, you should see the same thing as the screenshot in post 73 . A thin rim of border is remaining due to the diameter of the "white" circle

So you can see, if you made the "alpha keying object" larger diameter or smaller, you would get less or more black border revealed

All these things are really the same thing, but with an embedded alpha, you don't do anything like keying or "sandwich", just drop it on the timeline. With the "sandwich" method, you're just separating the alpha out onto a separate track.

But the initial disussion was how to do it with embedded alpha, sort of whole point that started this discussion. So we still need to clarify what works directly in MEP, without keying, etc... just drop on the timeline. There seems to be some conflicting information in your posts

[poisondeathray]

Er, also (you did say I should be very specific about what I wanted!), would a 25 fps version be possible please, which is my usual my project standard?

No problem, I'll make a 25 fps version , one we clarify what formats are supported (alpha channel directly, where you can just drop the video on the timeline)

In fact, it's easy to do in most editors - you just "interpret the fps" (since every frame already has a "tick" movemnt represented in this current version) . In effect, it's just slowed down by 25/30 (same number of frames)





The reason why it's 720 frames: 12 hours * 60 min/hour = 720 increments in minutes . So each frame represents a minute increment (one tick) . It doesn't matter if it's 25FPS or 30FPS or whatever. This is what "interpreting" in a NLE does. The same number of frames are there (nothing added or dropped), just played back faster or slower according to the FPS you enter (and thus the duration is either shorter or longer)

But I made the same "goof" probably as the other examples you downloaded from other sites, in that it's 12 hours represented for a complete revolution of the "small" hand, not 24 hours - DUH...

"conforming" in a NLE is different. Frames are added or dropped to "conform" to the timeline settings that you have. In contrast to "interpreting", the duration is the same. So if you drop 30.0 FPS footage onto a 25.0 FPS timeline by conforming to the 25.0 FPS timeline, frames are dropped (usually every 6th frame) , which of course results in jerky motion

If you did the opposite - drop 25 FPS footage onto a 30.0 FPS timeline, extra frames would be added to make up to 30.0 FPS. Most NLE's have either a duplicate or blend mode, so eitehr duplicate frames or blended frames are added to make up to the 30.0 FPS timeframe when "conforming"

[terrypin]

This is what it should look like , notice it's "transparent" around the clock, not black


[Attachment 18794 - Click to enlarge]

There is a thin black border

Your screenshot shows the image without the embedded alpha (it's disregarding the alpha)

Or was it AVI 2.0 MEP has a problem with ? Did you need AVI 1.0 ( you mentioned something about vdub "old format AVI" ) ?

Yes, PDR's earlier AVI 2.0 didn't work but 1.0 (Old AVI) did.

Back on this tomorrow.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[poisondeathray]

Yes, PDR's earlier AVI 2.0 didn't work but 1.0 (Old AVI) did.

ok but that was uncompressed

did lagarith work for any of the tests (by "work" I mean did the alpha work properly in MEP) ?




Did the alpha channel video in post #66 work properly in MEP ?

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/357196-How-to-add-transparency-to-a-video-clip?p=22...=1#post2253018

And if you save "old format AVI" did it "fix" the alpha channel so it could work properly in MEP ?




I'm assuming you want a compressed 30-40MB file (when unzipped) , not a 2-3 GB file

[terrypin]

Thanks both. Husband duties interrupt play early tonight so I'll get back on the case tomorrow.

I confirm my focus is now exclusively on the alpha channel approach - no mask, no keying in MEP. But I'm pleased that I've mastered the alpha sandwich method, as that means I can roll my own!

Monday 8 July 2013, 20:50 UK time.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[budwzr]

I wish the OP would ...

OP? In case you hadn't noticed, I'm in the room and and quite accessible! The name's in my sig...

Terry, East Grinstead, UK

Hahaha, Terry.

Edit: Oops, forgot "...of East Grinstead, UK"

[budwzr]

Jeez, I'm still stuck doing menial labor. But if I don't do it my fun budget will get severely reduced. By the time I get to make my clock, I'll be out of time, hehehe.

One thing's for sure, anybody plugging MEP in the future will get laughed outta here.

[budwzr]

Terry, here's some clock parts if you can use them.







And here's an actual working clock

http://files.videohelp.com/u/135518/ClockAnimation.avi

[budwzr]

Should look like this:



You like it? Or no? It's different, right? You can't find that on YT or Google, hahaha.

[terrypin]

Er, also (you did say I should be very specific about what I wanted!), would a 25 fps version be possible please, which is my usual my project standard?

No problem, I'll make a 25 fps version , one we clarify what formats are supported (alpha channel directly, where you can just drop the video on the timeline)

OK, thanks. Hopefully my detailed summary will achieve that clarification.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

Yes, PDR's earlier AVI 2.0 didn't work but 1.0 (Old AVI) did.

ok but that was uncompressed

did lagarith work for any of the tests (by "work" I mean did the alpha work properly in MEP) ?




Did the alpha channel video in post #66 work properly in MEP ?

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/357196-How-to-add-transparency-to-a-video-clip?p=22...=1#post2253018

And if you save "old format AVI" did it "fix" the alpha channel so it could work properly in MEP ?

Hope that my detailed summary answers these so I won't try to duplicate here.

I'm assuming you want a compressed 30-40MB file (when unzipped) , not a 2-3 GB file

Well, all things being equal I'd prefer to work with smaller files. But operation is important too. As you saw from my typical usage example in post #52, for the current application I intend to extract just a fragment of the 12 hours so I would like that to run smoothly. Post#41-jagabo-simple_clock_premultiplied.avi was 2.6 GB but it loaded quickly into MEP. Like all so far though its 30 fps makes it slightly flawed for my 25 fps projects. Other ideal improvements were covered in post #71.

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

I've spent most of today methodically re-testing all files and preparing a summary which I hope will correct any earlier confusion.

Note that I've renamed all (unpacked) filenames to show original post # and author. I've preserved the rest except where further detail was needed to describe it more fully.

Post #: 7
Filename: Post#7-jagabo-clock10s.avi
Size: 3.6 MB
FPS: 97 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: Yes
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/jagabo-post%237-clock10s.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Presumably (too short to test)
Result example: Not worth showing.
Any other comments: Watermarked test clip. Commercial alpha channel transparency.

Post #: 37
Filename: Post#37-PDR-simple_clock_premultiplied.mov
Size: 74 MB
FPS: 30 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP:
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Yes
Result example:
Any other comments: No message on trying to import. I use MOV regularly and Quicktime is installed. I naively converted it with SUPER 2008 to AVI but as PDR advised later that lost the alpha channel. So the result I showed in post #39 was after further work with that AVI. Note that AVI is 25 fps, not 30. Sorry if my enthusiastic opening ("Bingo - thank you, I have it working!") was misleading. It was working - but not with alpha channel.

Post #: 41
Filename: Post#41-jagabo-simple_clock_premultiplied.avi
Size: 2.6 GB
FPS: 30 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: Yes
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2341-jagabo-simple_clock_premultiplied.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: No (2 hrs every 60 mins).
Result example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2341-jagabo-simple_clock_premultiplied-AVI.mp4
Any other comments: Best so far. Despite size, MEP loads it quickly. Possible enhancements? 1. Correct timing; 2. Slightly smaller minute hands that don't hide the numerals; 3. Narrow black border


Post #: 41
Filename: Post#41-jagabo-simple_clock_premultiplied.gif
Size: 4 KB
FPS: ?
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2341-jagabo-simple_clock_premultiplied.gif.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Cannot test
Result example: Static
Any other comments:

Post #: 42
Filename: Post#42-PDR-2frames-uncompressed_premult.avi
Size: 7 MB
FPS: 25 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: Unsure, see below.
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2342-PDR-2frames-uncompressed_premult.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Too short to test.
Result example: Not worth showing.
Any other comments: Apparently imports and plays (in a flash) but I'm puzzled why it occupies LESS than 2 frames on the timeline.

Post #: 42
Filename: Post#42-PDR-2frames-uncompressed_straight.avi
Size: 7 MB
FPS: 30 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: Unsure, see below.
Screenshot(s) in MEP: Identical to the Premult above.
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Too short to test.
Result example: Not worth showing.
Any other comments: Apparently imports and plays (in a flash) but I'm puzzled why it occupies LESS than 2 frames on the timeline.

Post #: 48
Filename: Post#48-PDR-uncompressed_premultiplied.avi
Size: 2.6 GB
FPS: 30 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: Cannot test
Size looks OK?: Cannot test
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Cannot test
Result example:
Any other comments: Crashes MEP. No message, but hour glass runs indefinitely and status bar reports 'Initialising Audio Decoder (please wait)'. Forcibly close MEP.

Post #: 62
Filename: Post#62-PDR-2frames-lagarith_test_AVI2.0.avi
Size: 68 KB
FPS: 30 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: Unsure, see below.
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2362-PDR-2frames-lagarith_test_AVI2.0.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Too short to test.
Result example: Not worth showing.
Any other comments: Same puzzle about length on MEP timeline as for Post #42 files.

Post #: 66
Filename: Post#66-PDR-fixed_lagarith_AVI2.0.avi
Size: 22 MB
FPS: 25 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2366-PDR-fixed_lagarith_AVI2.0.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes (assuming there is no border beyond the white face).
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Yes, but see below.
Result example:
Any other comments:

Post #: 68
Filename: Post#68-Terry-PDR-Uncomp-Premult-BW-OldFormat.avi
Size: 2.6 GB
FPS: 30 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: Yes
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Terry-PDR-Uncomp-Premult-BW-OldFormat.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: No (2 hrs every 60 mins).
Result example:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2068-Terry-PDR-Uncomp-Premult-BW-OldFormat-avi.mp4
Any other comments: Presumably because of the frame rate conflict, after 25 frames the minute hand has moved from 12 to 6.

Post #: 70
Filename: Post#70-PDR-v2_lagarith_straight.avi
Size: 33 MB
FPS: 30 fps into MEP set to 25 fps.
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2370-PDR-v2_lagarith_straight.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: No
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Yes
Result example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2370-PDR-v2_lagarith_straight-avi.mp4
Any other comments: Top and bottom cut off. Presumably because of the frame rate conflict, after 25 frames the minute hand has moved from 12 to 6. And, of course, I was mistaken last night in reporting that it imported OK, when clearly the alpha channel has not been recognised.

Post #: 81
Filename: Post#81-budwzr-ClockAnimation.avi
Size: 700 KB
FPS: 59.94
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2381-budwzr-ClockAnimation.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Yes
Result example:
Any other comments: No alpha channel. Only 1 hour. MEP struggles to preview it.

Post #: 87
Filename: Post#87-PDR-25fps_2frames_LAGS_AVI1.0.avi
Size: 148 KB
FPS: 25
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2387-PDR-25fps_2frames_LAGS_AVI1.0.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Can't tell.
Result example: Not worth showing.
Any other comments: Shorter minute hand looks good.

Post #: 87
Filename: Post#87-PDR-25fps_2frames_png.mov
Size: 241 KB
FPS: 25
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP:
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Can't tell.
Result example:
Any other comments: Nothing appeared on timeline. No message. Yet played (albeit fleetingly) in VLC and IrfanVie. Wouldn't play in MPC-HC or WMP. QT Player gave 'Error -2048: Couldn't open the file QuickTimePlayer.exe because it is not a file that QuickTime understands,' but then proceeded to play it!

Post #: 87
Filename: Post#87-PDR-25fps_2frames_UT_AVI1.0.avi
Size: 576 KB
FPS: 25
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: Same as Post#87-PDR-25fps_2frames_LAGS_AVI1.0.avi
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Can't tell.
Result example: Not worth showing.
Any other comments:

Post #: 88
Filename: Post#88-PDR-25fps_uncompressed_premult.avi
Size: 2.6 GB
FPS: 25
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP:
Size looks OK?:
Hr/Min ratio OK?:
Result example:
Any other comments: Crashes MEP. No message, but hour glass runs indefinitely and status bar reports 'Initialising Audio Decoder (please wait)'. Had to forcibly close MEP.

Post #: 97
Filename: Post#97-jagabo-25fps_uncompressed_premult_vdub.avi
Size: 2.6 GB
FPS: 25
Imports OK into MEP?: Yes
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2397-jagabo-25fps_uncompressed_premult_vdub.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Yes
Result example: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2397-jagabo-25fps_uncompressed_premult_vdub-avi.mp4
Any other comments: Whew, we got there! Excellent co-operative effort, thanks.

Post #: 97
Filename: Post#97-jagabo-25fps_uncompressed_premult_vdub_lag.avi
Size: 28 KB
FPS: 25
Imports OK into MEP?: No
Screenshot(s) in MEP: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4019461/Post%2397-jagabo-25fps_uncompressed_premul...ub_lag.avi.jpg
Size looks OK?: Yes
Hr/Min ratio OK?: Yes
Result example:
Any other comments: By the time of this test I had uninstalled that UT codec as part of my trouble-shooting the VirtualDub issue.


--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[terrypin]

, but I recommend you switch to Vegas Studio, the cheapest version, and re-learn the interface, now while you're still getting started. The longer you wait, the more painful the switch.

I made my first DVD about 12 years ago and now have nearly 200. Not necesarily very good ones, and none made with Vegas Studio (which you clearly hold in higher esteem than some), but I reckon that takes me out of the newbie category, yes?

--
Terry, East Grinstead, UK

[poisondeathray]

It looks like none of the lagarith tests worked with alpha channel.

UT is UT Video Codec, you need that installed for the "25fps_2frames_UT_AVI1.0.avi" test
https://www.videohelp.com/tools/Ut-Video-Codec-Suite

I shortened the arrows, and change to 25FPS.

So the question now is what compressed format works properly in terms of alpha channel support in MEP . Note: These are just 2 frames each to test compression

[poisondeathray]

Here is the full uncompressed file (in 7zip), it should be the same format as the one jagabo used that worked (multipart openDML) - so worse case scenario if none of the other compression formats work - you can use a 2.5GB file

[budwzr]

I made my first DVD about 12 years ago and now have nearly 200. Not necesarily very good ones, and none made with Vegas Studio (which you clearly hold in higher esteem than some), but I reckon that takes me out of the newbie category, yes

Hahaha, Terry, that was a genuine heads up, not a slight. I do a lot of compositing, and I see you moving in that direction.

Each software brand has a different methodology and nomenclature, but Vegas is the most straightforward and intuitive, and is widely used by independent filmmakers and wedding videographers.

P.S. Vegas doesn't make DVD's.

[budwzr]

One thing's for sure, anybody plugging MEP in the future will get laughed outta here.

Oh, Terry, this comment probably ruffled your feathers. It was meant to dissuade those posters that come out of the woodwork from time to time when someone asks for advice on choosing an NLE.