jitter on DVDs burned with computer

[lipwak]

Interesting.

Perhaps stutter is the better word. It's hard to tell but I guess it is left/right jerking rather than up/down in pans and close ups of motion. It is not constant. Only in close-ups and pans and flash frames when the cameras are switched on "live" tv, but not on all camera switches. I have never seen interlacing effects (horizontal lines) ever, anywhere in the process.

I was going to add, before I got this reply, that I had no problems with stutter, shall we call it, with recordings made by my previous capture program that I also used with iMovie and IDVD to make DVDs, so that is why I thought it was an EyeTV problem. That gadget cost me $20 5 years ago. EyeTV cost me $200 2 months ago. I cannot afford to buy anything else at this point but thanks.

I don't know where this leaves me. Give up capturing? Record as MPEG 2 (EyeTV does that), (edit it within EyeTV but can only get to within 15 frames), burn a DVD with Toast from the MPEG 2 (and perhaps I can further edit adequately with Toast though I much prefer iMovie...)? But even then, it doesn't sound like I can count on avoiding stutter unless I happen to luck out with testing Toast's settings beforehand.

And a further question on DVB, would all channels on DirecTV vary in how they encode or would it vary from show to show? (If I knew one channel was TFF, would that help?) I am assuming all of the content I have recorded onto VHS from cable doesn't matter (until I capture it or does it matter even then?) thanks to jagabo's answer.

And thanks, jagabo, for that info.

Cheers,

John

[lordsmurf]

You definitely have an interlace-related issue.

DISH and DirecTV can change midstream. But you cannot access those streams with illegally hacking them anyway. Some devices (PVRs for use specifically for those systems) dump the stream legally.

What precisely does EyeTV do? Is it a capture card? Or does it download video streams like a PVR?

If it's a capture card, the DVB stream info does not matter, as your card is creating a fresh video stream, to the settings you instructed it. And in that case, the interlace issue is something you're doing (or not doing).

[lipwak]

What precisely does EyeTV do? Is it a capture card? Or does it download video streams like a PVR?

I don't know but it sounds like it does both. There is a hardware box external to the computer where the audio and video goes in. It then connects to my computer via USB. Once it is on, I can record the whole program even if I have decided to record it half way through the program, assuming I had EyeTV on when the program started, so in that sense it is like a PVR, no? (In the manual it says under exporting Quicktime movies: "MPEG Program Stream (is) The standard EyeTV format, creating a muxed MPEG file (audio and video intermixed). Suitable for Toast.) so that's why I thought it 'downloaded video streams like a PVR'.

All my content will be coming from a DirecTV DVR (legally) or my VCR.

In EyeTV, under Display/Delinterlacing, I can choose: No Deinterlacing, Motion Adaptive, Always or Progressive Scan but I thought that only applied to the computer display. Maybe it will affect my recordings too?

Cheers,

John

[Herve]

So, does that mean that both satellite and cable are both top field first? (I am glad it doesn't depend on each show!)

sorry, I said most not always
like you can read above, a dvb stream can be anything (usually in Europe it's Top-field-first: satellite, Terrestrial Numerical Television, Cable and internet brodcast). Usually, not always
You capture hardware is cool too, it decided itself of the order during capture

Does putting things on VHS affect field order?

VHS = 200 vertical lines, DVD PAL=576, DVD NTSC=480
A field is half a frame (eg NTSC) = 480/2 = 240 "pixel" in vertical. The size of the VHS "stream" is almost 25% of the brodcasted stream. (something like 320*200 versus 720*480 in DV or DVD ntsc)

DV = bottom field interlace, period.

I talked with some maintenair of ffmpeg (one that read -and understand- the specifications), he told me that DV can be top or bottom (but DV is always used as bottom). When I start my soft, somebody from a broadcaster send me a DV top make with it's capture card (directly in DV, 704*486 px).

"DV with top-field-first is compliant but not handle on mac"
What does 'compliant but not handled' mean?

conform to specf but no one use it (so handle it)

"In resume, don't use iDVD biggrin.gif"
And, since you say iMovie doesn't handle top first either, then I shouldn't use iMovie either, right?

short answer = yes (or convert first your dvb stream to dv bottom-field-first)
stupid answer = why not if you like difficulties , if you do your movie only with cut (no transition, no title, etc). It will be stupid but the resulting .mov will be top-field-first, encode it in top-field-first and your DVD will stay cool on TV

I do notice flash frames that occur when the camera is switched with "live" broadcast TV (such as Late Night With David Letterman) on DVDs that have jitter.

Hey! I just see last week a David Letterman show (in France, his show is broadcast with 2 months late on the cable, so I can see him actually in spite of the strike of the scenario writers )

bye (you had all the others info with the others post by lordsmurf and jagabo)

[lipwak]

Thanks. If I used iMovie, I could keep it to cuts only. (In the past, adding titles has resulted in more jitter/stutter.)

Cheers,

John L

[jagabo]

VHS = 200 vertical lines, DVD PAL=576, DVD NTSC=480
A field is half a frame (eg NTSC) = 480/2 = 240 "pixel" in vertical. The size of the VHS "stream" is almost 25% of the brodcasted stream. (something like 320*200 versus 720*480 in DV or DVD ntsc)

No, VHS has the same number of scanlines as broadcast video -- for capture purposes, 480 for NTSC, 576 for PAL.

I talked with some maintenair of ffmpeg (one that read -and understand- the specifications), he told me that DV can be top or bottom (but DV is always used as bottom).

I have never seen the official DV spec but it's certainly possible to create TFF DV video -- just feed a DV encoder TFF frames. But I don't know of any DV device that outputs TFF DV. For practical purposes (camcorders, Canopus ADVC, et.), DV is bottom field first.

[Herve]

Thanks. If I used iMovie, I could keep it to cuts only. (In the past, adding titles has resulted in more jitter/stutter.)

hey, was more a joke (I didn't verify it). Make your own test, I don't see why it won't succeed in theory (but practice is an other thing...)

[lipwak]

Hey, here's an idea. I can lay everything I want to record off onto VHS and then capture it with EyeTV, edit it with iMovie, burn it with iDVD and not have to worry about field dominance/interlacing since taking it analog will render those issues moot, no? For things I want to preserve the video quality with I can record DVDs with my standalone DVD recorder and just not be able to edit them, take commercials out, etc. I can live with the lower quality video, going the VHS route, in most cases and when I can't I can use my standalone DVD recorder. I'll just have to live with the unedited versions of things.

Which brings me to the question, how do standalone DVD recorders deal with the field dominance/interlacing question? I haven't watched enough of the DVDs I have created on it to see if it handles that but I am assuming it does.

And another question. I know most of you are PC people but how do you do it? What software do you use and how many steps are there between something being on TV and your ending up with an edited, jitter/stutter-free DVD?

Many thanks,

John L

[Herve]

VHS = low quality
I don't have time to read the whole thread but why didn't you use mpeg2 encoding (instead of dv) and make your cut with mpegstremclip and the codec mpeg2 from apple? (you cannot cut frame by frame, but -with french dvb- you can cut each second = each GOP, it's sufficient for me most of times)

how do standalone DVD recorders deal with the field dominance/interlacing question?

my standalone DVD recorder is top-field-first, my dv converter (Dazzle) is bottom-field-first

And another question. I know most of you are PC people

you're on a mac forum

What software do you use and how many steps are there between something being on TV and your ending up with an edited, jitter/stutter-free DVD?

- I use my own (see my sign) I first developp it for personnal use.
- Mpegstreamclip (both can convert mpeg2 T-F-F to DV B-F-F, but not in the same way)
- and myDVDEdit (for some bu****t with my stupid dvd player)
Duration is very short:
- opening in mpegstreamclip and "convert to mpeg" (to repare timestamps) (time to write to disc)
- re-opening of the export file in mpsc (to cut ads et cie) (5 minutes)
- correction of the trimed stream to not loose synchronisartion and to conform to DVD (depends of if the stream is broken or not, something like 10/15 minutes for one hour), MovieConverter too.
- authoring when I have enough files to fill a DVD (5 minutes of settings, longer to encode menus and writing to disc), MovieConverter too.
- myDVDEdit (to remove some "region free" that my DVDplayer does not like: #7 and 8 ) (30 seconds)
- Burn with LiquidCD (speed x4 for more compatibility) (time to write to disc)
Final duration: I don't really know, computer work alone most of time... but I spend not so much time to do something.
PS: don't try to reproduce it, correction of dvb streams and authoring are not avaible yet in my soft, it's only for my personal use (I must finalize them: localizations, etc). Before I used MovieGate for authoring.
bye

[jagabo]

Hey, here's an idea. I can lay everything I want to record off onto VHS and then capture it with EyeTV, edit it with iMovie, burn it with iDVD and not have to worry about field dominance/interlacing since taking it analog will render those issues moot, no?

No. Capturing the VHS output (converting to digital FRAMES) again will reintrode field order issues. And recording onto VHS tape will drastically reduce the quality. It will introduce lots of noise, scanline jitter (unless you have a VCR with a TBC), and reduce the horizontal resolution.

Which brings me to the question, how do standalone DVD recorders deal with the field dominance/interlacing question?

They receive an interlaced analog signal the capture, encode, and burn with whichever field order they choose. The ones I've seen are TFF.

[lipwak]

Wouldn't my capture hardware be receiving analog interlaced signal too? I feed it an S-VHS feed out of the DVD recorder. The standalone DVD recorder gets composite video from my VCR, analog as well but I don't know about interlacing there.

(More on setup: DVD recorder gets composite in from VCR. EyeTV gets S-VHS from DVD recorder. VCR gets composite from DVR. DVR doesn't have component outputs. The best is S-VHS. I don't have any optical connections. I have it set up like this so I can capture from either the DVR or the DVD recorder. The TV gets S-VHS from the DVR and component video from the DVD recorder.
DVR (composite out) -> VCR (composite in & out) -> DVD recorder (composite in, component out) -> TV (component in) and DVR (S-VHS)->TV (S-VHS))

I think I wrote it correctly...

I'm still digesting Herve's post. I am sorry I thought I was in a PC forum. I've posted to one of those here too and forgot which one I was replying to. (Have also posted to the Apple discussions.)

Cheers,

John

[jagabo]

Wouldn't my capture hardware be receiving analog interlaced signal too? I feed it an S-VHS feed out of the DVD recorder. The standalone DVD recorder gets composite video from my VCR, analog as well but I don't know about interlacing there.

Yes, the only thing that composite and s-video cables carry is interlaced video -- an alternating sequence of top and bottom fields.

[Herve]

Wouldn't my capture hardware be receiving analog interlaced signal too?

jagabo has right
but one thing is sure, you understand nothing about interlace
if your aim is to manipulate streams (iMovie or direct encoding) read this (I spend some time to write it because I answered too many times about interlacing), there is some ads (normal it's the site of my soft) but the rest is only popularization/explanations.
You could understand what is this strange thing (frame/fields) and then how to deal with.
http://movieconverter.online.fr/intl/interlaced_field.php
When you finish (= understand) the first page, take a look to "interlaced broadcast" and you'll find in the second image the answer for your question ("what can I do with my interlaced resulting stream in mpeg2 from an analog progressive VHS?"-.
PS: don't cheap and take a look to the second page first, you will not understand

bye
PS: and post your answer

[lipwak]

Well, I read it. Didn't understand it but I read it. One problem is the grammar. I'd be happy to improve some of that if you want. I do thank you for all this help. I remember looking at your pages a long time ago (before this problem came up. I'm not sure what I was looking for then.) While the technical explanations may be valid and apply to lots of situations, like all the other graphics/explanations I have seen on the internet of interlacing problems, your pics don't describe what I am seeing. I am not seeing the content shift as if it were horizontal lines or the whole content shift ever. I am only seeing certain sections of content, never all of it, jittering or stuttering if you will and once that part passes, all is ok for the rest of that clip. Parts of clips have this problem, never the entire clip. (I would think entire clips, if there was a problem with how it is playing, would show this problem.) I haven't seen a graphic that duplicates what I am seeing anywhere. That is why I haven't thought this was an interlacing problem.

Anyway, I will study it some more. I am getting weary of all this though. I just want to find a way for it to work; I don't want to know all the ins and outs of video. One shouldn't have to, should they? If it can't be done with what I have then fine. Your product might make it work but I am not ready to spend more money at this point.

I'm not complaining. I do appreciate all the help given, honest.

Cheers,

John

[jagabo]

I am not seeing the content shift as if it were horizontal lines or the whole content shift ever. I am only seeing certain sections of content, never all of it, jittering or stuttering if you will and once that part passes, all is ok for the rest of that clip.

Reversed field order is only visible when there is motion. It should be visible any time there is motion. It may be hard to see if the motions are very small. The direction of the motion doesn't matter. When something moves it will take two steps to forward, then one step back, two steps forward, one step back... With fully interlaced NTSC video this will happen 30 times a second. It will look something like this:

rev.mpg

but faster.

[lipwak]

Yes, that is it, more or less: the flutter you see when the pterodactyl is close at the very beginning. The shaking of the whole scene, the horizon in this case, doesn't happen in my stuff. For me, it is only noticeable in those particular spots where there is much motion in either a close-up or a longer shot. In a close-up when someone is playing a guitar fast for example, his hands will flutter/flicker rather than be smooth.

I think you description of the overall affect describes what I am seeing.

Thanks.

[jagabo]

When the background isn't moving (ie, when the camera isn't moving or turning) the background won't jerk. You can see this in the sample I uploaded. During the first second the camera is panning, during the second second it is (very nearly) still, during the third second it is panning again.

[Herve]

Well, I read it. Didn't understand it but I read it. One problem is the grammar. I'd be happy to improve some of that if you want.

YES, YES, YES

your pics don't describe what I am seeing.

you transfer dvb stream (intelaced, contents and wrapper) to VHS (loosing all interlacing = transform it to progressive, removing some informations of the original stream).
If you convert your VHS to MPEG2 or DV, your contents will be still progressive (but the wrapper will be interlaced).
If your contents is progressive but the wrapper interlaced (top or bottom), you don't mind!
each field is from the same image, if you display first half of a image and the remainder after, you don't have to think about interlaced (the 2 fields make a single image not 2 differents ones).
so, you can use a progressive contents in iMovie even if your DV is top-field-first (cf second picture of "interlaced broadcast")

I am not ready to spend more money at this point.

wasn't to sell, just to explain
like jagabo said, interlacing can be difficult to see sometimes. And brocasters are not very nice, eg: in France I saw the television serial "The Unit", the contents of this broadcast is progressive but not always (resume, generic and pieces from time to time, are interlaced). Maybe you are in the same case...
bye

[jagabo]

VHS is not progressive. It is a direct recording of the interlaced analog source. The output from a VHS player is the same as the original input except for the reduced bandwith (less horizontal resolution), additional noise (poor signal to noise ratio of tape), timing errors (individual scanlines may be shifted left/right and not exactly the same length), and messed up brightness and colors.

Never send a high quality source to VHS and capture from there. All you will be doing is ruining the video. It will not convert interlaced video to progressive.

[lipwak]

Hi all,

I think everything is finally worked out with EyeTV's exported dv files. They upgraded me to EyeTV 3 (3.0.1) from 2.52. They'd said the problem was with Apple's iMovie and IDVD but I see that EyeTV is now exporting dv files (using the iMovieHD and the .dv exporting choices) as bottom field first. I checked with MovieConverter. (Thank you Herve for ALL your help!!!)

The resulting DVDs made from these exported files, after being run through iMovie 6.0.4 and iDVD 7.0.1 (Elgato upgraded me to iLife 08 but I couldn't install the latest version of iMovie on my Powerbook.) did NOT have jitter/stutter. I did notice a color degradation problem that I am looking into but I think EyeTV is finally exporting dv files correctly. Hallelujah!

Thank you EyeTV and thanks for all the help here.

Cheers,

John L

PS Anyone know why the color deteriorated? My source was the same DVR recording I have been using all along, Gogol Bordello on Letterman, which looks fine when played on the DVR. The new EyeTV is also, so far, appearing brighter and sharper on my Powerbook which is nice.

[jagabo]

PS Anyone know why the color deteriorated? My source was the same DVR recording I have been using all along, Gogol Bordello on Letterman, which looks fine when played on the DVR. The new EyeTV is also, so far, appearing brighter and sharper on my Powerbook which is nice.

Two likely issues:

Computer monitors have very different gamma curves than televsions. Video usually looks darker when viewed on a computer monitor. Dark colors will look more saturated, bright colors less. So don't compare video on a computer to video on a TV.

DV is stored as YUV samples, not RGB. Many programs convert YUV to RGB for processing and display. Then RGB is converted back to YUV when saved as DV or MPEG. There are two different ways to convert YUV to RGB. In the world of digital video a luminace value of 16 is considered full black. A luminance value of 235 is considered full white. Video isn't supposed to have values lower than 16 or higher than 235. In the computer world 0 is considered black and 255 considered white. So many programs convert YUV to RGB by stretching the range from 16-235 to 0-255 (called rec.601 or rec.709 luminance scaling). But some programs leave the luminance levels intact (often called pc.601 or pc.709 luminance scaling). If one program uses one type of scaling to convert YUV to RGB, and a later program uses the other type of scaling when converting back to YUV the final video will look different than the original.

[lipwak]

Thanks.

Another possible cause is that the DVD recorder that I am playing the finished DVDs on, had its firmware upgraded recently when it was in the shop. I have to do more testing with that to see if that is the cause of the color degradation.

I'm not worried about the difference between TV and computer in regard to brightness. I am impressed though that EyeTV 3 is brighter and sharper, for me, than 2. And of course, that they are doing dv properly...

Cheers,

John L

[jagabo]

Are you seeing changes other than brightness and contrast? Smearing? Loss of sharpness with colors?

[lipwak]

The DVDs I made tonight when played on the DVD recorder on the tv show both smearing/loss of sharpness and I'd say are more saturated and are just the wrong colors (not grossly wrong). On the computer those DVDs (and EyeTV) looks fine...

(edit) Later, other DVDs I've made with the computer awhile back look beautiful on the DVD recorder so I think the DVD recorder is fine.

[jagabo]

It does sound like the colors got messed up somewhere during your processing. Using a standardized color chart might help you track the problem down. I posted a DV AVI color chart a while back:

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic346864.html#1820664

[lipwak]

Um, thanks. I have no idea how I could use that though. I don't have a scope and don't know how to read one if I did. Should I put this on a DVD, have the DVD recorder play it (if it can). Record that with EyeTV, do my usual steps to burn the DVD and then see what it looks like on the tv? Without a scope or the ability to read one if I did, I don't think I'll be able to interpret the results to the degree needed if I did that.

But thanks.

Let's see what things look like tomorrow when I am fresher. Maybe do some more tests. Maybe it will be more apparent then.

Cheers,

John

[EdZeppelin]

[quote="Herve"]

Wouldn't my capture hardware be receiving analog interlaced signal too?

jagabo has right

You could understand what is this strange thing (frame/fields) and then how to deal with.
[url=http://movieconverter.online.fr/intl/interlaced_field.php[/url]

I wholeheartedly agree. MovieConverter is my favorite video app. It allows you to actually see the fields with your own eyes, and decide which order works best (or even use "progressive"). I admit, I never really understood fields until I bought this fantastic program, but it does so much more. I run all my avi's through it to conform with my 50 inch plasma HDTV (it adds black bars in any configuration you need and has options for configuring 4:3-to-16:9 and vice versa, NTSC or PAL). Plus, it re-syncs audio and fixes video, so now I don't have jitter problems at all. No matter WHAT media I use (the savings right there more than pay for the app.)

Best of all, I can take my old 800 meg XviD vids, run them through MovieConverter, and it makes a snazzy 2gig progressive-scan high-quality MPEG-2 file with AC3 audio, then run the extra features through MovieConverter as well, and it makes a killer DVDr that Toast burns in about a minute-and-a-half.

The user interface is one of the easiest I've ever seen. Very easy and intuitive. I used it right out the gate without even looking at the manual. I can't say enough about this app. I give it my "best find in the past five years" award.

[lordsmurf]

somebody from a broadcaster send me a DV top make with it's capture card (directly in DV, 704*486 px).

#1 -- Capture card is not the same as DV camera
#2 -- Broadcaster is not likely to be using consumer DV25 formats.