Top of picture skewed when transferring VHS to DVD

[tambrent]

I have a Sony RDR-GX300 DVD Recorder. Over my time transferring VHS videos to DVD, I've noticed a number of which appear with a skewed picture on the top of the screen. From what I've been able to determine from great forums such as this and others on the Net, I need to look into acquiring a Time Base Corrector. I've even read, if I'm correct on this, that many DVD Recorders even have them built in now. Geez... I guess this $600 unit wasn't good enough back 1.5 years ago.

Anyways, I'm hoping some of you wiser ones out there could suggest models of TBCs to look for, even where to obtain them. Also, how much I should expect to dish out for one. Found a few on eBay but I wouldn't be looking for anything extravagant (as in a super crazy Television Station quality model), just something that would work suffice for transferring hockey games and such from VHS to DVD without such annoyance of that skewing.

Lastly, I'm also curious as to whether a TBC would eliminate Macrovision protection on video tapes. I am not looking to copy anything illegally, only convert some of the store bought VHS video tapes from the past on to DVD.

Thanks very much, anxiously looking forward to some replies.

Brent

PS - Currently am using a RF Modulator as my newer TV lacks the 3 prong audio/video cable jacks in back. A great device for being able to view through the DVD Recorder (and TV) to the screen, something in which I believe I learned about via one of these fantastic forums.

[guns1inger]

The Restoration forum is where most discussions of this type are carried out.

Start with these two stickies

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=250528
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=239205

And have a scan of some of the other posts there

[FulciLives]

The two most popular Full Frame Time Base Correctors ... due to their "low" price ... would be the AVT-8710 (about $190 US Dollars) and the DataVideo TBC-1000 (about $300 US Dollars).

Both can be bought from a variety of on-line websites but a good reliable source would be B&H PHOTO AND VIDEO

Most other models of Full Frame Time Base Correctors start at $900 to $1,000 US Dollars and go up from there!

Anyways both the AVT-8710 and the DataVideo TBC-1000 are PAL/NTSC capable and both feature composite and S-Video for inputs and outputs.

Another popular option would be a VCR that has a built-in TBC such as the S-VHS models made by JVC (although only one model currently is avialable with the built-in TBC). This form of TBC is called a Line TBC and works differently than a Full Frame TBC. Sometimes one or the other is needed ... sometimes both are needed. It all depends on the source and each source is different and unique.

The JVC S-VHS with the built-in Line TBC is the SR-V101US but please note that some people think this model (the only model you can buy new) is not as good as the older JVC models. Some people prefer to look for older models on-line at eBay but you never know if you will luck out with a good working machine or one with problems or one that works today and breaks tomorrow.

Again I suggest looking for the JVC S-VHS on the B&H PHOTO AND VIDEO website.

Also there are price matching websites such as PRICEGRABBER.COM that search on-line websites for the BEST PRICE for any particular product. Not 100% foolproof but very helpfull.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
A Line TBC will not ... but a Full Frame TBC will eliminate ALL forms of copy protection. This is not the intended fuction of a Full Frame TBC but is rather a "side effect" of the way they work, i.e., the "re-sync" they apply to the video signal.

[lordsmurf]

I've even read, if I'm correct on this, that many DVD Recorders even have them built in now.

Not really. Don't be misled into thinking this. Most of the filters found in DVD recorders are a far cry from a true TBC. Many of them do absolutely nothing.

For tearing at the top of the screen, there are two fixes.

The first is a VCR with a line TBC, like the high end JVC S-VHS units. I highly suggest these anyway, the filters and playback quality far surpasses a cruddy little plain VHS VCR.

The second is the Panasonic ES10 DVD recorder, if you can still find it. Now, I"m not saying record with it, the recording quality of a Panasonic is pathetic. But the sync filters in this unit handle tearing exceptionally well, and they work on pass-through video. This means you feed VCR into Panasonic, and then into your recording device.

In fact, the Panasonic filters clean up wavy errors within the image itself, even better than line TBCs in S-VHS VCRs do.

Yeah, it all costs $$$ but after a while, you have all the tools you need to do almost anything you want.

[tambrent]

Thanks a lot for your input guys.

I'm leaning towards going with a DataVideo TBC-1000, once I land some disposable income to acquire it. Will keep an eye on eBay and search the Net when need be.

As per the S-VHS players, seem hard to find and would have to order from the U.S. (I'm in Canada), thus shipping I figure would be a pig.

Thanks again. All the best.

Brent

[davideck]

I've even read, if I'm correct on this, that many DVD Recorders even have them built in now.

Not really. Don't be misled into thinking this. Most of the filters found in DVD recorders are a far cry from a true TBC. Many of them do absolutely nothing.

DVD Recorders have built in frame synchronizers, each with their own timebase correction capability characteristics.

In fact, the Panasonic filters clean up wavy errors within the image itself, even better than line TBCs in S-VHS VCRs do.

This implies that the TBC capability of the frame synchronizer built in to the Panasonic is particularly good.

[canadateck]

Read and try this.Works for me EveryTime.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=262102&highlight=capture

[GreyDeath]

Thanks a lot for your input guys.

I'm leaning towards going with a DataVideo TBC-1000, once I land some disposable income to acquire it. Will keep an eye on eBay and search the Net when need be.

Whoa, hold on Nelly!

You say that your problem is Flagging at the top of the picture? The TBC-1000 will NOT fix that since it's a Full Frame TBC, and most useful in giving a clean, stable signal to the capture device. The TBC-1000 will strip the original timecoding from each frame and input a new one, it does almost nothing for flagging. If you have problems dropping frames to your recording device, due to a highly degraded tape, this will fix it.

As LordSmurf says, you need a LINE TBC like the JVC S-VHS HR-S9911U or a "sometimes" more useful Panasonic DMR ES-10 or the like for straightening out the look of each frame. I have both of these, and in conjunction with the TBC-1000, have no problems capturing anything for editing.

The Pany does a better job than the JVC on really screwed up tapes, but you sacrifice a little bit of color accuracy and picture sharpness. Of course, with a tape that screwed up, who will complain. :P I believe I bought my Pany for under $200 new, but of course it's an old model, I don't know if the new model of the series will have the same filters that the ES-10 has. Since money is definitely a factor for you, might want to look into that first. And again, use it as a pass-through to your $500 DVD recorder.

I found my example from long ago of what the JVC model does for flaggin. Also in there is the TBC-1000 which you can see does nothing for picture quality.

[davideck]

The Pany does a better job than the JVC on really screwed up tapes, but you sacrifice a little bit of color accuracy and picture sharpness. Of course, with a tape that screwed up, who will complain. :P I believe I bought my Pany for under $200 new, but of course it's an old model, I don't know if the new model of the series will have the same filters that the ES-10 has.

The TBC capability of the frame synchronizer in the ES20 is similar to that of a TBC-1000 (i.e. little if any correction). Perhaps the TBC performance of the ES10 was lost when Panasonic incorporated the LSI chip.

[mikel]

Helpful hint:
Top edge skewing could be a symptom of a VCR in need of supply reel tension
adjustment. Before you lay out some hard cash, try another playback deck.


If you have a lot of tapes to convert....sooner or later you'll probably need a TBC.

(I'd sure hate to go without mine) --- AVT-8710

[davideck]

It sounds like an ES10 in passthrough mode is a better TBC/Frame Synchronizer than a TBC-1000 or an AVT-8710. The TBC performance of the Toshiba DVD Recorders is also very good.

It's too bad that DVD Recorders don't remove MV in passthrough.

[heman28]

Hello I don't know if this will help out or not but I have found out that the AVT 8710 does in deed sometimes get rid of flagging.Almost all of my tapes will flagg once in a while on my jvc deck that I have and its the 5902 and it does not have a time base corrector in it but the AVT has done a awesom job for me. I also have a Panasonic DMR e55 and it does the same thing as the es10 and I believe it has the same line TBC as it does but I can not say for sure but it does a lot better then the AVT or Datavideo in some cases but not all. Hope that helps.

[davideck]

The various TBC/Frame Synchronizers all have unique characteristics and operate somewhat differently than the others.

The TBC/Frame Synchronizer in the ES10 and DMR E55 seem to correct flagging particularly well.
The TBC/Frame Synchronizer in my Toshiba DVD Recorder noticeably reduces horizontal jitter.
The DataVideo and AVT-8710 TBC/Frame Synchronizers seem to have their advantages as well.

The best TBC/Frame Synchronizer that I have is my JVC MiniDV Camcorder Analog A/V passthru.
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1456802#1456802

[lordsmurf]

I think TBC/FS is a good abbrevation to talk about them (as in a TBC and/or FS). We can agree on that one.

If you liked the JVC miniDV, try one from Canon ZR series.

For top-screen tearing, the ES10 is the single best solution I've seen to date. That FS works well. It does good on intra-picture wiggly noise too.

[mazinz]

I think older panny decks may have the same filters applied to them. I have a now pretty older panny dmr-hs2 deck and it does wonders for top of the screen tears and other wavy mayhem I have encountered when doing some of my old beta tapes. I use the panny as a pass through and record into a jvc.

[davideck]

I think TBC/FS is a good abbrevation to talk about them (as in a TBC and/or FS). We can agree on that one.

TBC/FS looks good. Here is a working definition;

Timebase Corrector/Frame Synchronizer (TBC/FS);
A device that digitizes a Video Input and guarantees continuous sync at its Video Output.

In order to digitize the Video Input, a sampling clock must be derived. The characteristics of the sampling clock determine the timebase correction capabilities of the unit.

Once digitized, the video samples are then synchronized to an internal sync generator, such that the TBC/FS Video Output is a continuous sequence of Frames with no discontinuities in the Horizontal and Vertical sync signals.

DVD Recorders fit this definition, as do the DataVideo and AVT-8710 units. Note, however, that the JVC TBC/DNR system in their SVHS VCRs does not. The JVC TBC/DNR system is a great TBC, but it does not guarantee continuous sync under all conditions, thereby failing to meet the requirements of a Frame Synchronizer.

[lordsmurf]

Well, the JVC S-VHS DNR/TBC would still qualify as a "TBC/FS" because it's a device that performs any number of functions covered in the definition. As an all-inclusive definition, we can talk about a TBC/FS and not worry about nitpicking which one it is and what exactly it does. After all, the DVD recorder companies and other folks are getting pretty liberal with what a "TBC" is, so we may as well expand into a broad definition that can cover everything without the nitpicking, and without being liars (as we both know, some of those "TBCs" are anything but, however they are a good FS, or something in between).

I was originally shooting for a list of definitions, but I think your all-inclusive approach is a lot easier to grasp by newbies. To fix picture problems, you need a TBC/FS, and some do better than others at certain errors.

JVC's S-VHS VCR options would not be appropriate in this exact situation. But there are others in the TBC/FS category that certainly would.

[davideck]

I agree that TBC performance can be hard to quantify, but I think it is important to identify which devices have frame synchronizers and which do not. The continuous sync provided by a frame synchronizer is valuable in eliminating audio/video skew, and each specific device either does or does not guarantee continuous sync at all times. The JVC TBC/DNR does not. It is not a Frame Synchronizer.

The definition describes the hardware functionality within a device. It is not meant to be all-inclusive. It is meant to be quite specific. DVD Recorders and external TBC/FS units are examples of frame synchronizer architectures; they digitize an input and provide continuous sync at their output. Other devices do not provide this same functionality because they are not frame synchronizer architectures. The JVC TBC/DNR is one example.

[vhelp]

I think it is more importnat to first know what kind of source you have,
in terms of the issues resulting in a propsed TBC setup. Sorry. What
I mean here is this. You should *KNOW* the exact issue you are having to
begin with. Knowing exactly what your source is exhibiting will help you
use the proper tool to correct or help resolve the issue in your source.

There are too many users (members) here that are just throwing in a TBC
and assuming that it will correct the problem(s) and that is not the right
course of action. But, we (not I) still suggest.. "oh, you need a xxx-TBC"
etc. in your mix. And, as time and time has proven, its not always the
right move.. throwing in a TBC in every video transfer project.

I believe we should begin a research in the identifying of all (or as many)
video issues that are known to date, and catalog them via demo "images" of
each issue, and associate which TBC (s) would resolve them.

If we started a separate page (topic) and sticky it if it proves realistic,
this would help many users faster, and also help reduce the amount of forum
smog (I mean) congestion here

I wonder who would like to take on this endeavor ? anyone.. ?

-vhelp 3982

[lordsmurf]

I wonder who would like to take on this endeavor ? anyone.. ?
-vhelp 3982

I already started this 2 years ago. Time consuming. Not done yet.