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  1. I was just looking to a 3D comb filter which would give similar results to what's in the more high end LD players, like the X0. I'm pretty sure all those artifacts I get from the Conexant capture card do not show up on those players, by looking at other captures.

    The DVD recorder I got had leaked caps and needs repairing, but I ended up finding an ES10 in my area for cheap. I heard the DMR E20/30 has one of the best 3D comb filters, am I right?

    @clashradio Once you can do tests with the SM14 let me know
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  2. The AGC problem with the ATI TV Wonder 650 is based on picture content. Not sync pulse irregularities, not dot crawl filtering problems, etc. I posted an example in this post:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/344643-Ati-theatre-750-vs-theatre-650#post2149571

    In that sample the picture quickly fades in from (mostly) black. Initially there's an AGC overshoot -- bright parts of the picture are crushed and lose detail. Over the next several frames the AGC tapers back and brights and details come back to normal. The problem was not in the source (I captured with other devices and they did not show AGC problems with the same material).

    Another post with some stills:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr...vd#post2023227
    Last edited by jagabo; 4th Apr 2022 at 08:45.
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  3. Originally Posted by pthebest19 View Post
    The DVD recorder I got had leaked caps and needs repairing, but I ended up finding an ES10 in my area for cheap. I heard the DMR E20/30 has one of the best 3D comb filters, am I right?
    I don't know whether the comb filter of E20 is better than E10 or E15. I used to have E20, EH50 and E55 and found the E20 to smooth (denoise) the picture slightly, more than E(H)50 and E55 which was sharper but a bit noisier (all filtering except the comb filter disabled, natural videos rather than static test patterns). The comparison for finding subtle differences is sometimes difficult as one can't really reproduce 2 identical analog captures even using the same equipment. My testing has not been exhaustive though, so others may chime in.
    Last edited by Sharc; 4th Apr 2022 at 10:16.
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  4. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Sharc View Post
    Originally Posted by pthebest19 View Post
    The DVD recorder I got had leaked caps and needs repairing, but I ended up finding an ES10 in my area for cheap. I heard the DMR E20/30 has one of the best 3D comb filters, am I right?
    I don't know whether the comb filter of E20 is better than E10 or E15. I used to have E20, EH50 and E55 and found the E20 to smooth (denoise) the picture slightly, more than E(H)50 and E55 which was sharper but a bit noisier (all filtering except the comb filter disabled, natural videos rather than static test patterns). The comparison for finding subtle differences is sometimes difficult as one can't really reproduce 2 identical analog captures even using the same equipment. My testing has not been exhaustive though, so others may chime in.
    Careful with the model numbers! My DMR-E20 was manufactured in Mar 2002; my DMR-ES15 in Apr 2006. DMR-E10 came out in 2001, and DMR-E15 doesn't exist.

    I only have a small LD collection. I captured some clips 5 years ago from a couple chapters of my letterboxed T2 copy using a few of my many devices, but didn't get very far into comparing them. And I don't know whether it's good real-world test material in the first place.


    Originally Posted by pthebest19 View Post
    I was just looking to a 3D comb filter which would give similar results to what's in the more high end LD players, like the X0. I'm pretty sure all those artifacts I get from the Conexant capture card do not show up on those players, by looking at other captures.

    The DVD recorder I got had leaked caps and needs repairing, but I ended up finding an ES10 in my area for cheap. I heard the DMR E20/30 has one of the best 3D comb filters, am I right?
    On the Snell & Wilcox zone plate test pattern (found on Video Essentials), Panasonic DVD recorders produce excellent results. But test patterns aren't real-life content, as noted by Megapixie here. See also this thread. I have the ADV7842 EVAL board now, but I've been focused on VHS so I haven't put it through its paces with LD content.



    If you happen to own any LDs that I also have, capture some samples and I'll do the same so we can compare.
    Last edited by Brad; 4th Apr 2022 at 10:44.
    My YouTube channel with little clips: vhs-decode, comparing TBC, etc.
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  5. I got a working ES10. Couldn't test it on LD yet because my step down converter broke, but the 3D comb filter is way better than what the Conexant chip does. I don't see all the ghosting when recording from a composite source.
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    Originally Posted by pthebest19 View Post
    I was just looking to a 3D comb filter which would give similar results to what's in the more high end LD players, like the X0. I'm pretty sure all those artifacts I get from the Conexant capture card do not show up on those players, by looking at other captures.

    The DVD recorder I got had leaked caps and needs repairing, but I ended up finding an ES10 in my area for cheap. I heard the DMR E20/30 has one of the best 3D comb filters, am I right?

    @clashradio Once you can do tests with the SM14 let me know
    An interesting note about "Connexant" input stages.

    The LD-decode project turned to Connexant field/frame based capture cards, but discovered the Input stage Electrolytic caps were restricting the bandwidth of the Input stage "narrower" than necessary.

    There are two possibilities;

    1. Age. Electrolytics (good or bad at the start) eventually degenerate over time, surface mount faster than the ones in switching power supplies.

    2. Poor design, overcompensating trying to avoid RF interference / ghosting

    You (could) use even old Connexant cards to capture a signal.. and this is where most "begin" with these cards, since they offer a linear, (not field / frame) capture ability.

    But the signal when decoded looks a bit muddied or washed out due to the "over filtered" effect of the external caps on the Input.

    You can toss and try another card, but I've seen this same thing happen on the Lumanate MPEG2 cards that can also capture simple YUV frames.. in fact its more pronounced since they are much older coming out in 2002 and 2004.

    Replacing a Surface Mount Electrolytic is possible.. but I'm not willing to provide any guidance at this time.. and it makes a huge difference.

    Several Youtuber repair videos cover the various methods.. most don't bother with like-for-like Surface mount replacements and use Axial or Radial cans. But the choice is a little more difficult because of the frequencies involved. You have to be mindful of the total ESR which attenuates the signal and other parameters.. so unlike a power supply where you care most about heat and longevity.. exactly because your trying to catch video.. you have to select caps with a shorter lifespan.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    The AGC problem with the ATI TV Wonder 650 is based on picture content. Not sync pulse irregularities, not dot crawl filtering problems, etc. I posted an example in this post:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/344643-Ati-theatre-750-vs-theatre-650#post2149571

    In that sample the picture quickly fades in from (mostly) black. Initially there's an AGC overshoot -- bright parts of the picture are crushed and lose detail. Over the next several frames the AGC tapers back and brights and details come back to normal. The problem was not in the source (I captured with other devices and they did not show AGC problems with the same material).

    Another post with some stills:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/326560-Which-is-better-usb-stick-vhs-cap-or-hd-pvr...vd#post2023227

    The Theater 550, 650, 750 chips came out right when 3D Comb filtering became a big thing.

    The only problem is 3D Comb filtering works by switching the method of Composite decode right in the middle of a Scene depending precisely on the automated detecting of frame "difference" motion.

    Using it sharpens the image at the expense of making it appear darker.

    Its never switched on "all the time" it has to step down to 2D and then Notch depending on frame, line or other decisions.

    It was important for RF and external Composite signals, but irrelevant for s-video or component sources.

    I do have a collection of cards and devices which use the the 550, 650 and 750 chips.. and may get around to verifying this was the problem someday.

    AGC always gets the "blame" for the problems with these chips but curiously people alluded to switching AGC "off" and it still "flickered", or they blamed Macrovision (which is in the VBI) and stablizers didn't work.

    But the same complaints show up with "all" 3D Comb filters across the board in this time period.

    Broadcast, and Broadcast SDI equipment "never" (or at least very rarely) offered 3D Comb filters and it was always default "disabled" or not listed on the features list. Analog Devices did not include 3D Comb until its very last SD chips and it was a buried option in the users guide.

    3D Comb can only be used with absolutely "static" scenes, or it switches to 2D and so on.

    3D Comb of all the features was a very late add-on feature for the last of the Composite NTSC users in the consumer space.. once s-video and component video arrived.. it was not needed.

    Its understandable for people to want (or need) 3D Comb when capturing Laserdisc.. since that format records to the media using Composite signals.. what goes in as Composite comes out as Composite.

    But VHS does not work that way, it uses a Color Under scheme which separates the Chroma from the Luma and records those on tape as two different FM (frequency modulated) signals that bounce around two different center frequences that just touch, but do not overlap. They do not have the same problem as Laserdisc and do not have to be decoded with a Comb filter to get back separate channels.

    Its a very common thing to think (I used to think this too..) that VHS records the actual AM (amplitude modulated) video signal on the actual VHS video tape, it does not.

    (Plus) these cards are getting old too.. Surface mount electrolytics degenerate and start dampening the signal at the input stage, but at least its uniform... mostly

    If we don't move into the long tail of used broadcast capture equipment, then we will have to learn to "service" even capture cards and capture devices.. or leave it to the professionals who have the talent, skills and gear to maintain this equipment.

    I guess you could try proc-amps for a while, or shuffling through "good and bad" cards hoping to find a good one.

    i don't mean to be a total "wet blanket"
    Last edited by jwillis84; 8th Apr 2022 at 12:22.
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  8. If this thread is still relevant, I can tell you that I own 2 LD players: Pioneer CLD-D703 and Pioneer Elite LD-S2. I own and currently use the following capture devices: Analog ADV-7842 Eval board, Diamond VC500 OneTouch VideoCapture (Conexant based chip), Diamond ATI PCIe HD TV Tuner Card, Diamond ATI Theater HD 750 USB TV Tuner card. I also own Panasonic DMR-ES25 DVD recorder but it introduces posterization artifacts so I am not using it.

    I transferred my LD collection doing 2 pairs of parallel (simultaneous) captures per disc. I.e. 4 total captures per disc. I used CLD-D703 with ATI Theaters (composite going to PCIe card with 3D comb filter turned on and S-Video going to USB card). I used LD-S2 with composite going into ADV-7842 board and S-Video going to OneTouch VC500 USB stick (simultaneous per player). Both of ATI 750 cards do not cause AGC issue with CLD-D703. They both however cause AGC issue with LD-S2 and thus I don't use them with this player.

    I am not seeing any difference between CLD-D703 2 parallel captures because most of the footage is motion. I only see the difference when I see static titles but it's really not a big deal.
    I'm seeing a bit of a difference between ADV-7842 and OneTouch VC500 only because they're different devices and because proc amp settings are different. If you're interested, I can provide short samples from all 4 captures of the same fragment.
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  9. Captures & Restoration lollo's Avatar
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    If you're interested, I can provide short samples from all 4 captures of the same fragment.
    Yes, please.

    Any chance to add a comparison of a capture of the Y/C output of the Pioneer Elite LD-S2 players feeding the Diamond VC500? (to check if the Comb filter of the player is any better than the poor Comb filter of the VC500)
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  10. Originally Posted by lollo View Post
    If you're interested, I can provide short samples from all 4 captures of the same fragment.
    Yes, please.

    Any chance to add a comparison of a capture of the Y/C output of the Pioneer Elite LD-S2 players feeding the Diamond VC500? (to check if the Comb filter of the player is any better than the poor Comb filter of the VC500)
    I am not sure what you mean. Neither of my players have motion adaptive 3D comb filter built-in. VC500 capture card also doesn't have motion adaptive 3D comb filter. I was feeding LD-S2 S-Video into VC500 because I wanted one of the captures from LD-S2 to be without motion adaptive 3D comb filter. ADV-7842 S-Video input is horrible BTW.
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  11. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
    The Theater 550, 650, 750 chips
    AGC always gets the "blame" for the problems with these chips but curiously people alluded to switching AGC "off" and it still "flickered", or they blamed Macrovision (which is in the VBI) and stablizers didn't work.
    The way you stated that almost makes is seem as if you don't believe AGC issues exist.

    However, overly aggressive AGC does exist here. This has been known for at least a decade now.

    Again, as I often state, I wish all things worked as promised, and flawlessly so. But that's just not reality. So we have to watch out for each others,, in our various communities. In the video ingest community, those ATI cards are crap, and that's that. Move on to something else, hopefully something better.

    VC500 has similar issues.

    In a few cases, something keeps the AGC from being overly aggressive. But it's still there, a bomb with a fuse waiting to be lit.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
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