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  1. Member
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    Using DVDLab Pro 2 I am authoring a DVD that has multiple episodes of a show. Each episode has 2 different intros (one for English, one for Japanese). The video was ripped from a PAL disc I legally own, and the VOB file contains both intros back to back and does not use angles (the intros are not interleaved). So it goes: Opening -> eng intro -> jap intro ->episode -> Credits -> Opening -> eng intro -> jap intro -> episode... It has 2 audio tracks and 2 subtitle tracks for english/japanese respectively.

    So the way I currently have it setup is using Chapter VM commands (aka cell commands) in the PRE section. For Eng intro chapter I check language (via SPRM1), if Japanese, skip to Japanese intro. For Jap intro chapter I check language, if English, skip to episode. Play back on the computer there is zero noticeable transition. However on the standalone dvd player, there is a slight pause when jumping from: eng intro -> episode, and from opening -> jap intro. Before resorting to Chapter VM (cell) commands, I tried the "chapter playlist" feature from DVDLab Pro, but I was only able to link to the beginning of it from a menu, not to a specific point in it, so that didn't work (I have chapter menus). Are Chapter VM (cell) commands like this generally supported in dvd players? It works fine on both my old sony and a slightly newer panasonic blu ray player.

    Another potential solution DvdLab Pro offers is Multi-PGC title. However I am hesitant to put in the work to re-cut and encode every single chapter to individual movie clips to try this. I am not sure this would even result in a seamless playback even if I did. Or if I could still keep chapter menus etc.

    I am ASSUMING the only way to transition truly seamlessly (no pause on stand alone dvd player) between opening to japanese intro or english intro to episode is to use angles. Is that right? In DvdLab Pro I quickly abandoned the idea of angles because I couldn't figure out how to only angle the intro chapters. It is wanting me to basically double the entire video, which would be detrimental to video quality. I know it's possible to angle only certain chapters (possibly not in DvdLab Pro) because I have seen it done on retail discs. Also, Dvdlab Pro's documentation claims that the sum of both video/audio/subtitle tracks actually CAN exceed the maximum bitrate for a dvd, yet everyone else says no way. Who is right?

    Speaking of seamless, I read conflicting reports that says you can set the layer break (yes my dvd is double layered because of the 8G size) to be a seamless transition, while others say you can't. Is that a situation where it works for some dvd players and not others? If I set the layer break to seamless, what is the worst that will happen? Just not be seamless, or worse?

    Thanks,
    Mike
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  2. Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    So the way I currently have it setup is using Chapter VM commands (aka cell commands) in the PRE section.
    What you wrote here is not clear. There are 4 different sections where a VM command can be used: pre-commands, post-commands, cell-command and menu button command. Not sure what you call Chapter VM command. I suppose you are speaking of a cell command (following a chapter). Right ?

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    [...] if English, skip to episode. [...] there is a slight pause when jumping from: eng intro -> episode, and from opening -> jap intro.
    The problem of the slight pause is caused by the jump. Unfortunately, you cannot avoid it easily, because the head of the DVD player has to move from one point on the disc to another one. This takes some time, hence the pause. Unfortunately, even if you modify the VM commands, the head will still have to move, so you cannot avoid the pause, unless you re-author the DVD to use the multi-angle technique. But to be able to use that technique, the durations of the two intros must be exactly equals, because the content of the two clips will be segmented into small fragments, and the fragments of each clip will be placed on the disk alternately, so that the playback head never has to move more than a small distance, which it can do without a pause. Normally, the multi-angle technique is reserved for segments of the movie almost identical, with only slight differences, such as logos or text in different languages. I doubt it is usable here.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    Another potential solution DvdLab Pro offers is Multi-PGC title. However I am hesitant to put in the work to re-cut and encode every single chapter to individual movie clips to try this. I am not sure this would even result in a seamless playback even if I did.
    The multi-story (or multi-PGC) technique is different and can certainly be used here, but it will not completely solve the problem of the pause. With that technique, a second PGC is created, with almost the same content, but with slight differences. In your case, you will have, say, the first PGC with the English intro, and the second one with the Japanese intro. The rest of the two PGCs will be identical. So, instead of having to play with cell commands to skip the useless content of a single PGC, you select the right PGC since the beginning (according to the selected language), and let it play normally, without cell command to skip the useless parts. Unfortunately, that will not solve the problem of the head having to move to skip it. But with some luck, the delay will be shorter, and perhaps even unnoticeable, although that will certainly depend of the player. Anyway, it's a much easier technique to use than multi-angle, and simpler than your current method with VM commands, so try it !

    I'm not an expert with DVDLab Pro, so I can't tell how to do it, but normally, you don't need to recode the video. The second PGC uses exactly the same content on disc than the first. The only difference are the parts skipped by the two PGCs. You can even create the second PGC with PgcEdit, and modify the VM commands manually to play it when it should be played. However, it's not a trivial job, but I can help you if you wish.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    I am ASSUMING the only way to transition truly seamlessly (no pause on stand alone dvd player) between opening to japanese intro or english intro to episode is to use angles. Is that right? In DvdLab Pro I quickly abandoned the idea of angles because I couldn't figure out how to only angle the intro chapters. It is wanting me to basically double the entire video, which would be detrimental to video quality. I know it's possible to angle only certain chapters (possibly not in DvdLab Pro) because I have seen it done on retail discs.
    Multi-angle is indeed not made to call a different angle as a different chapter (although I'm almost sure that will be possible with PgcEdit, but it's certainly not easy.) Anyway, I wrote above why multi-angle is probably not suitable in your case.
    And no, multi-angle do not require doubling the entire video. Normally, it has just to double the parts where two (or more) angles must be available. But authoring properly a multi-angle DVD is not trivial.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    Also, Dvdlab Pro's documentation claims that the sum of both video/audio/subtitle tracks actually CAN exceed the maximum bitrate for a dvd, yet everyone else says no way. Who is right?
    Not sure in what context it claims that. Perhaps that it's the case in the parts doubled with the angles, but I'm not sure. Also, the maximum bitrate has been designed at the beginning of the DVD story, when the players were slow and did not contain much memory. Modern players (especially BD players) are certainly capable of supporting greater bitrates. But anyway, disobeying the rules is never a good thing, especially if your player is old !

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    Speaking of seamless, I read conflicting reports that says you can set the layer break (yes my dvd is double layered because of the 8G size) to be a seamless transition, while others say you can't. Is that a situation where it works for some dvd players and not others? If I set the layer break to seamless, what is the worst that will happen? Just not be seamless, or worse?
    Again, the rules are strict, and normally, you should NOT set the joint to seamless. However, even commercial DVD (among others the so-called "Superbit DVD") do it. But they use other techniques in the muxing of the video data to "inform" the player that a seamless layer-break will come a few ms later, so that the player will bufferize enough data to be able to move to the second layer without the pause. I don't think DVDLab supports that technique. Anyway, again, if your player is recent enough, you can almost certainly set the seamless-joint flag on. IMO, the worst thing that can happen is that the pause will be present anyway, and, perhaps some very old players will freeze, but I think you can take the risk. Anyway, if you do it, burn your DVD with ImgBurn. It will do its best to burn the seamless layer break properly.

    Good luck !
    Last edited by r0lZ; 29th May 2022 at 06:32. Reason: typo
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  3. Member
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    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    So the way I currently have it setup is using Chapter VM commands (aka cell commands) in the PRE section.
    Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    What you wrote here is not clear. There are 4 different sections where a VM command can be used: pre-commands, post-commands, cell-command and menu button command. Not sure what you call Chapter VM command. I suppose you are speaking of a cell command (following a chapter). Right ?
    Pretty sure they are cell commands. In the context of DVDLab Pro 2, they are VM commands attached to the top most "PRE" section before their abstraction layer runs. However when I open the compiled dvd in PGCEdit and click on the movie, they are clearly listed as cell commands.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    [...] if English, skip to episode. [...] there is a slight pause when jumping from: eng intro -> episode, and from opening -> jap intro.
    Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    The problem of the slight pause is caused by the jump. Unfortunately, you cannot avoid it easily, because the head of the DVD player has to move from one point on the disc to another one. This takes some time, hence the pause. Unfortunately, even if you modify the VM commands, the head will still have to move, so you cannot avoid the pause, unless you re-author the DVD to use the multi-angle technique. But to be able to use that technique, the durations of the two intros must be exactly equals, because the content of the two clips will be segmented into small fragments, and the fragments of each clip will be placed on the disk alternately, so that the playback head never has to move more than a small distance, which it can do without a pause. Normally, the multi-angle technique is reserved for segments of the movie almost identical, with only slight differences, such as logos or text in different languages. I doubt it is usable here.
    I figured angles may be the only way to go for truly seamless playback in this situation. Oddly enough the only difference between the intros (other than language obviously) is the "title" screen for the movie, as one is written in English, the other in Japanese. So in theory, if I put in the work to make the individual clips, angles may work. However I could not find a way in DVDLab Pro to upload the 90 second (or so) clip as an alternate angle for a specific chapter. Either I am missing something or the software is incapable of multi-angle only in certain chapters.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    Another potential solution DvdLab Pro offers is Multi-PGC title. However I am hesitant to put in the work to re-cut and encode every single chapter to individual movie clips to try this. I am not sure this would even result in a seamless playback even if I did.
    Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    The multi-story (or multi-PGC) technique is different and can certainly be used here, but it will not completely solve the problem of the pause. With that technique, a second PGC is created, with almost the same content, but with slight differences. In your case, you will have, say, the first PGC with the English intro, and the second one with the Japanese intro. The rest of the two PGCs will be identical. So, instead of having to play with cell commands to skip the useless content of a single PGC, you select the right PGC since the beginning (according to the selected language), and let it play normally, without cell command to skip the useless parts. Unfortunately, that will not solve the problem of the head having to move to skip it. But with some luck, the delay will be shorter, and perhaps even unnoticeable, although that will certainly depend of the player. Anyway, it's a much easier technique to use than multi-angle, and simpler than your current method with VM commands, so try it !

    I'm not an expert with DVDLab Pro, so I can't tell how to do it, but normally, you don't need to recode the video. The second PGC uses exactly the same content on disc than the first. The only difference are the parts skipped by the two PGCs. You can even create the second PGC with PgcEdit, and modify the VM commands manually to play it when it should be played. However, it's not a trivial job, but I can help you if you wish.
    I think what I have is pretty workable. The original PAL disc I ripped from has the same pauses in the same places. I like mine better than the original with the exception of the video motion sacrifice I made using pulldown to bring it up to 29.97 FPS for NTSC. But then again that's the whole reason I am doing it, so I can play it on my standalones and have it in my "collection" with the others from the series.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    I am ASSUMING the only way to transition truly seamlessly (no pause on stand alone dvd player) between opening to japanese intro or english intro to episode is to use angles. Is that right? In DvdLab Pro I quickly abandoned the idea of angles because I couldn't figure out how to only angle the intro chapters. It is wanting me to basically double the entire video, which would be detrimental to video quality. I know it's possible to angle only certain chapters (possibly not in DvdLab Pro) because I have seen it done on retail discs.
    Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    Multi-angle is indeed not made to call a different angle as a different chapter (although I'm almost sure that will be possible with PgcEdit, but it's certainly not easy.) Anyway, I wrote above why multi-angle is probably not suitable in your case.
    And no, multi-angle do not require doubling the entire video. Normally, it has just to double the parts where two (or more) angles must be available. But authoring properly a multi-angle DVD is not trivial.
    When I said chapters I suppose I meant cells? When I open a disc I was trying to emulate (same series, different authoring companies between Australian and US distributor) used multi-angle. I could see it clear as day in PGCEdit, only that specific "chapter" (per episode) was listed as having more than one angle. The Australian company who authored the DVD I am ripping from (since this volume was only ever released in Australia) went with the Multi-PGC approach instead of angles.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    Also, Dvdlab Pro's documentation claims that the sum of both video/audio/subtitle tracks actually CAN exceed the maximum bitrate for a dvd, yet everyone else says no way. Who is right?
    Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    Not sure in what context it claims that. Perhaps that it's the case in the parts doubled with the angles, but I'm not sure. Also, the maximum bitrate has been designed at the beginning of the DVD story, when the players were slow and did not contain much memory. Modern players (especially BD players) are certainly capable of supporting greater bitrates. But anyway, disobeying the rules is never a good thing, especially if your player is old !
    It was from their brief page on multi-angle titles: https://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/helppro2/index.html?multiple_angles.htm
    Near the bottom of the page under "Bitrate for multi-angles". When I first read it could not be done, the reason seemed to make sense and I never tried to test it. But once I read on the DVDLab documentation that you COULD, I was intrigued.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    Speaking of seamless, I read conflicting reports that says you can set the layer break (yes my dvd is double layered because of the 8G size) to be a seamless transition, while others say you can't. Is that a situation where it works for some dvd players and not others? If I set the layer break to seamless, what is the worst that will happen? Just not be seamless, or worse?
    Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    Again, the rules are strict, and normally, you should NOT set the joint to seamless. However, even commercial DVD (among others the so-called "Superbit DVD") do it. But they use other techniques in the muxing of the video data to "inform" the player that a seamless layer-break will come a few ms later, so that the player will bufferize enough data to be able to move to the second layer without the pause. I don't think DVDLab supports that technique. Anyway, again, if your player is recent enough, you can almost certainly set the seamless-joint flag on. IMO, the worst thing that can happen is that the pause will be present anyway, and, perhaps some very old players will freeze, but I think you can take the risk. Anyway, if you do it, burn your DVD with ImgBurn. It will do its best to burn the seamless layer break properly.
    Well since double layer DVDs are relatively cheap now (compared to years ago) it's worth a shot. I have imgBurn installed as it seems universally recommended for burning double layer discs while respecting the layer break (or even warning one in advance if not set and giving them the option to choose and even preview the cell where they are placing). Then I learned about the progression from DVDdecrypter to imgburn. A lot has happened on the DVD scene since I was doing anything nearly 20 years ago.

    Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
    Good luck !
    Thank you!
    Last edited by mistateo; 29th May 2022 at 23:02.
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  4. Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    Oddly enough the only difference between the intros (other than language obviously) is the "title" screen for the movie, as one is written in English, the other in Japanese. So in theory, if I put in the work to make the individual clips, angles may work. However I could not find a way in DVDLab Pro to upload the 90 second (or so) clip as an alternate angle for a specific chapter. Either I am missing something or the software is incapable of multi-angle only in certain chapters.
    Yes, if the only difference is the language of the logo, multi-angle should be usable, and probably the best solution. Unfortunately, I can't help you with DVDLab Pro.

    May I know why you want to keep the two versions ? Usually, when a multi-angle (or here multi-story) DVD is ripped, the user wants to keep only the angle in his own language. Is it really important for you to be able to see the logo in Japanese ?

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    When I said chapters I suppose I meant cells?
    A "cell" is the smallest video segment that can be manipulated individually. For example, a bonus may reference a small extract of the movie. To show it without having to duplicate it, it can be authored as a cell within the whole movie, and referenced by another PGC, callable from the bonus.
    A "program" is a similar segment, and has to be a cell or several cells in consecutive order. A "chapter" must correspond to a specific program. (It is not clear why the author of the DVD specs created the programs and chapters, as basically, they are the same thing.)
    So, to summarize, although most of the time, a chapter is made of a program, itself made of a single cell, there are cases where the movie contains much more cells than programs and chapters. It's especially the case of the DVDs protected with ARccOS or similar protection, where many cells are present just to confuse the rippers and establish the protection. Anyway, a chapter must always begin at the beginning of a cell and end at the end of the same cell or of another cell.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    It was from their brief page on multi-angle titles: https://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/helppro2/index.html?multiple_angles.htm
    Near the bottom of the page under "Bitrate for multi-angles". When I first read it could not be done, the reason seemed to make sense and I never tried to test it. But once I read on the DVDLab documentation that you COULD, I was intrigued.
    I see. They are probably right on that point, but honestly, I cannot confirm. But that makes sense, as only a single angle is played at the same time, the others being simply skipped. Therefore, the bitrate of a single angle must of course be in the limits, but not necessarily the total of the bitrates of all angles.

    However, I disagree on many things reported on that page, and especially when they claim that "Today you will hardly find any mainstream title that uses this feature." and the reasons they give. They ignore completely the large number of movies with the movie title, end credits or printed information authored as multi-angle cells. Disney's Snow White (European version at least) is a good example : the names of the dwarfs engraved on the headboards are different depending on the language chosen.

    Originally Posted by mistateo View Post
    I have imgBurn installed as it seems universally recommended for burning double layer discs while respecting the layer break (or even warning one in advance if not set and giving them the option to choose and even preview the cell where they are placing). Then I learned about the progression from DVDdecrypter to imgburn. A lot has happened on the DVD scene since I was doing anything nearly 20 years ago.
    ImgBurn has an option to burn a double-layer DVD with the "seamless layer break".
    IMO, ImgBurn is a regression from DVDdecrypter. It is probably a better burner, but it has lost its ability to decrypt the DVD. Pity. But luckily there are alternatives.
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