Digital Noise w/ DVD-R Passthrough Cause?

[companda]

Hello All!

Long time reader, first time poster! I have a question regarding digital noise I'm getting when using my DVD recorder as a passthrough. Here's my setup:

Panasonic AG1970p > S-Video Out > Toshiba DR430 > HDMI Out > Samsung LED TV.

The noise doesn't occur with every tape and when it does, it's mostly on images that have titles, but it has happened on scenes without them. This isn't a problem with other SVHS players using the same setup. Any thoughts? It's distracting enough to not want me to watch videos using this player, so any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[davexnet]

What happens if you connect the AG1970 directly to the TV (composite if necessary) - do you get this distortion ?

[companda]

When I was troublehsooting, I ran the composite via this same setup- 1970 > Composite > DVD recorder > HDMI- and it produced the same results. Shortly after, I replaced my 1970 with the AG-7350 as my mine player and didn't do any further testing. Now that my 7350 is on the fritz, I'll be hooking the 1970 up again. I'll test it out tomorrow and report my findings.

[Eric-jan]

It's all done within electronics is my guess, sometimes it tries to "compensate: certain "artifacts" but the result has not always a good end result, my LCD/TFT tv does not make a good "picture" from any of the composite inputs, the (VHS) capture towards my computer over component video is perfect, without any filtering of any device or software, it's just what's on the tape.

[orsetto]

Check the control panel of the AG-1970. Make sure TBC is turned off, the picture control switch is set to something other than "Edit", and the picture sharpness slider is set to slightly less than center detent.

Panasonic employed an odd primitive line TBC in the 1970. Most of the time it does absolutely nothing, with a very rare type of tape issue its helpful, and other times it conflicts badly with other electronics daisy chained to it. The two picture controls can also cause undesirable interactions at some settings.

If this is a commercial tape, MacroVision could be a factor. If tape was recorded from cable TV, residual underlying cable defects in the signal are poorly tolerated by some setups.

[companda]

I hooked up my 1970 straight to the TV via composite and it produced the same results. It's a frustrating issue that only seems to happen with this player. Naturally, I just sold my Mitsubishi HS-U67 SVHS player that was refurbished because I didn't see the need for 3 players and now after the fact, one by one, they seem to be giving me issues.

Orsetto, thank you for the advice. Unfortunately, I still get the same result with your suggestions. This issue seems to happen with random cassettes. I normally watch commercial tapes and 1 out of 5 will produce these results.

If anyone else has any advice, please let me know. It seems this may just be how everything is handled via the my setup, unfortunately. Fingers crossed that my repair guy can fix whatever the issue is with my 7350.

[orsetto]

I hooked up my 1970 straight to the TV via composite and it produced the same results.

In that case, there's something off with either the 1970 or your TV. That artifact you're getting looks more digital than analog, but some analog errors can appear very strange on modern HDTV displays. Possibly you've got an allergic reaction between TV and 1970: the VCR is doing something just slightly off that the TV misinterprets. Troubleshooting this in the VCR could prove tedious and costly.

The AG1970 is more reliable and durable than the more coveted AG1980, but both models share a tendency toward deterioration of caps and resistors on their video output boards. This is far more common and severe in the 1980, but I've seen it with some heavily used and older 1970 examples: the video board degrades ever so slightly, just enough to show odd streaking or artifacts when playing some tapes but not others. Unlike the high-value AG1980, it is not usually worth it to service the 1970 (the repair cost typically equals the cost of a replacement 1970 in better condition). But its relative to availability and cost of local repairs: if you've got a truly excellent VCR tech nearby who actually knows what a 1970 is (as distinct from a consumer VCR), and the service fee is less than $200, it could be worthwhile if you rely on certain qualities of the 1970 (i.e. its better than average HiFi and EP tracking).

Get an estimate, then consider it against the cost of replacing the 1970 with a newer VCR with similar qualities. The very good, very reliable and rugged Mitsubishi HS-U748 and 749 SVHS track HiFi and EP as well or better than the AG1970, but were made much later and employ microcircuits that never degrade. The Mitsus lack the primitive TBC of the 1970, but that TBC is not as effective as that on the later 1980 or various JVC vcrs. While I still keep two 1970s on hand, in use I've mostly replaced them with Mitsu 748s for that niche: I prefer their smoother faster operation and display options.

Note your HS-U67 is generations removed from the 748/749. Mitsubishi went thru more internal engineering revisions than almost any VCR brand, most of them not so good. But every now and then, MGA would totally nail it, and the 748/749 era was their high water mark in both performance and reliability (the cheaper 448/449 are identical but not SVHS). They are my go-to VCR recommendation for transfers that don't require built-in TBC/DNR.

Fingers crossed that my repair guy can fix whatever the issue is with my 7350.

Its astonishing you found a tech even willing to work on a 7350, and I'll be absolutely floored if he repairs it perfectly. If he does, ask him if he wants publicity to attract more clients, and post contact info here. The pool of techs with experience and talent at fixing this type of pro VCRs is vanishingly small, down to just a handful in USA (most of whom don't want any more customers because they're verging on retirement). You're very lucky to have such a tech nearby.

[companda]

Thanks, Orsetto. I'll be taking it to him tomorrow, but he's well versed on these particular units; A hospital was a regular client of theirs, and they were their certified technicians to repair the 7350s once upon a time, so I'm confident he'd be able to repair it, barring any egregious issues. I'll keep definitely keep you posted. It's odd because, it's still playing without issue, but the noise it's making doesn't sound kosher, so I'd rather not risk damaging any tapes or the player itself.

What were your thoughts on the HS-U67? I couldn't tell if you felt it was a good machine or not. I'm also curious what your thoughts on the Panasonic DMB-BD70V? I'm not a huge fan of combo players whatsoever, but right now this one is performing better than my 1970, as sad as that is.

[davexnet]

On what device was the tape recorded and does it have a hole on the bottom side to indicate a S-VHS tape ?

[companda]

On what device was the tape recorded and does it have a hole on the bottom side to indicate a S-VHS tape ?

It's a commercial tape, not a a recording, definitely not a S-VHS tape.

[Eric-jan]

On what device was the tape recorded and does it have a hole on the bottom side to indicate a S-VHS tape ?

It's a commercial tape, not a a recording, definitely not a S-VHS tape.

If the VCR supports SuperVHS it's most likely Macrovision, or the tape triggers an detection in the VCR which it should not....
I guess any commercial tape isn't recorded in SuperVHS mode, then it's macrovision or a defective VCR.
to be shure check also with a different tv/monitor on the VCR, the result might be different, a tv should not respond to any Macrovision tag signal,

[orsetto]

What were your thoughts on the HS-U67? I couldn't tell if you felt it was a good machine or not.

I've never owned or used the HS-U67, but I did have the "studio" version of its big brother HS-U80, the BV-1000 (same VCR except the consumer-market 80 was gussied up in black lacquer and rosewood while the 1000 looked like a generic beige PC flipped on its side). Not sure if 67 and 80 were contemporaries, as the HS-U80 was an odd duck that remained Mitsu's premiere VCR over several years while the models under it were completely redesigned year to year. The HS-U80/BV-1000 was built like a Mack truck, the only SVHS I've owned that equals it in that regard is the superb Sony SVP-5600 which was made nearly 20 years later. Unfortunately, as we see with many other products, apparent build quality doesn't necessarily mean the same as "quality build with performance to match". My example was mediocre with playback of regular VHS tapes, and had the worst HiFi audio tracking I ever experienced. It was also plagued with power module issues that eventually became unrepairable as the custom parts went out of production. Huge, heavy, impressive-looking VCR but very disappointing to use.

In the mid 1990s I passed thru phases with the newer HS-U680, HS-U780 and HS-U790. At the time these were the only non-pro VCRs you could still buy with flying erase head for smooth edits. But video performance was average and HIFi tracking still mediocre. I tolerated them because the only alternative was the 3x more expensive Panasonic AG-1980 and a couple JVC models that I'd had very bad luck with. Each of these Mitsus suffered the same fate by their fifth birthday: complete breakdown of the loading mechanism (the entire inner tape slot and mechanism was made of a fragile polymer that decomposes with age, eventually shattering into multiple tiny pieces).

Glutton for punishment that I am , I replaced these with a second hand AG1970 (which I still use- yippee) and a few years later added a couple of Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U DVHS when those popped up at a 70% new-old-stock closeout sale. I was leery at first, because the DVHS appeared to recycle the exact same design as the 790 SVHS. But I took a chance on the 2000 because the price was a steal for a VCR with JVC-style TBC/DNR (the only Mitsu VCR ever sold with that feature). Remarkably, 14 years later, both my Mitsu 2000 are still humming along just fine: despite looking exactly like their fragile SVHS predecessors, the Mitsu DVHS have been far more durable and reliable. They run very hot, but no sign of the mechanism breaking down yet. Mitsubishi being Mitsubishi, the DVHS is still a devils bargain. SP playback using the TBC/DNR is extremely nice, great for transfer work, but like nearly all Mitsus the HiFi tracking is awful and its near-useless with EP/SLP tapes.

The closest I've come to headache-free Mitsubishis are the 448/449 and 748/749: fantastic at everything, except no TBC/DNR is a big disappointment. Its a tragedy for us today that Mitsubishi didn't base their DVHS on the 748/749 chassis instead of the obsolete 790. The combo of 748/749 transport with TBC/DNR would have made a phenomenal alternative to often-buggy JVCs and hopelessly defect-plagued AG1980. Too bad.

I'm also curious what your thoughts on the Panasonic DMB-BD70V? I'm not a huge fan of combo players whatsoever, but right now this one is performing better than my 1970, as sad as that is.

Combos aren't always bad, there were a few OK ones that had decent VCRs. This Panasonic BluRay combo was one of those: better than average tracking, and somewhat refined color considering no TBC/DNR or prosumer mechanics. The VCR section probably benefits from sharing some circuitry with bluray in this instance. I wouldn't go out of my way to buy one, but as a stopgap while you wait for your dedicated VCRs to be repaired you could do a lot worse. Play in the trenches of the transfer game long enough, and you'll find the "right" VCR for some tapes doesn't always jibe with conventional wisdom. Sometimes you gotta just use whatever works best for the individual tape, VCR features or premium branding be damned. If this combo unit plays your problem tapes without a hitch, maybe its the one you should use for them (unless your repaired 7350 beats it significantly).

Analog VHS is a very very inconsistent medium. More often than we'd like, our "best" VCRs aren't as good at playing some tapes as lesser models. With the right tapes, my once -$4400 Sony SVP-5600 is unbeatable: crystal clear HiFi with no buzzing, incredible timing stability due to its built-in pro-level TBC (which conveniently also kills MV contamination on Hollywood tapes). With the wrong tapes, mostly those recorded from cable TV broadcasts, the big Sony backfires: ruthlessly revealing defects lesser VCRs handily conceal. I'd prefer to use the Sony for everything, but I can't: sometimes the tape itself needs an AG1980, AG1970, a Mitsubishi, a JVC, or a plain jane Panasonic/Mitsu/Sharp/whatever.

Each tape dictates the terms of its digital capture.

[companda]

Duplicate.

[companda]

Analog VHS is a very very inconsistent medium. More often than we'd like, our "best" VCRs aren't as good at playing some tapes as lesser models. With the right tapes, my once -$4400 Sony SVP-5600 is unbeatable: crystal clear HiFi with no buzzing, incredible timing stability due to its built-in pro-level TBC (which conveniently also kills MV contamination on Hollywood tapes). With the wrong tapes, mostly those recorded from cable TV broadcasts, the big Sony backfires: ruthlessly revealing defects lesser VCRs handily conceal. I'd prefer to use the Sony for everything, but I can't: sometimes the tape itself needs an AG1980, AG1970, a Mitsubishi, a JVC, or a plain jane Panasonic/Mitsu/Sharp/whatever.

Each tape dictates the terms of its digital capture.

Thank you, Orsetto. Your information has been invaluable. It's definitely eased my, admittedly, self imposed anxiety I've had over the last couple of days.

There's no issue on CRT televisions, so I wonder if it's the LED, Samsung in particular. I've completely eliminated the DVD recorder passthrough and it's still an issue. I've even used a different model DVD recorder as a passthrough and no difference. So, through process of elimination, I'm thinking it's the TV not playing nice with it, for whatever reason. I've attempted to make setting changes on the LED and nothing has been sufficient.

[orsetto]

To my eyes, no flat panel HDTV can touch an old Trinitron CRT for standard definition sources like VHS. In fact, VHS could only exist because the amazing error concealment abilities of CRT displays made it possible. Flat panel LCD, like anything digital, is ruthlessly rigid with no flexibility: it was designed for high definition sources, period. It will, when necessary, display a version of standard def, but not before messing with it to fake out its HDTV input requirements, and the LCD panel by nature doesn't lend itself too well to low resolution input. At best digitized VHS displayed on a modern HDTV is tolerable and you get used to it, at worst even the best digitized VHS will be disappointing on some HDTVs.

Things have gotten better now than they were ten years ago: at least now even the bargain TVs employ fairly fast LCD panels and LED backlight, and premium OLED TVs are noticeably better with SD sources. Back in 2011, most affordable HDTVs used ghastly, slow LCD panels that were painful to watch VHS or even home-recorded dvds on: the temporal motion blur when actors turned their heads, the trailing shadows, muddy colors- yuck. Samsung CFL models were dreadful with VHS, but their LED models have historically been pretty good. My parents have a 40" LED Sammy they bought in early 2010 that still plays like new, beautiful screen: floors everyone who visits them.

Perhaps your newer Samsung is a trifle less tolerant of signal anomalies, but it shouldn't be glitching that badly. The solution lies in a VCR and capture chain that doesn't trigger the artifact with those tapes that are prone to it. Since these are Hollywood tapes, I suggest you check for the presence of MacroVision copy protection: this could easily be whats bugging your HDTV. Play the tape on your Panasonic combo VCR, patched thru your 1970 inputs, with the 1970 outputs connected to a CRT television. If the tape is protected, you will see the top of the frame looks dimmer, and rapid flashes will occur in the video after a few minutes playing. Try the test again with the combo and 1970 switched around (1970>combo>CRT): this will help reveal whether the combo is somehow concealing the protection artifacts via digital wizardry vs the older 1970 being unable to. Protected tapes are a pain to digitize, requiring a full 100% no-kidding TBC box like DataVideo TBC-1000 be inserted between VCR and capture system.

The built-in TBC of your Panasonic 7350 pro VCR may or may not perform the same MV cleaning function as the DataVideo TBC: if you discover your problem tapes are MV protected, the 7350 could be the cure. Otherwise, consider just buying second-hand studio DVD replacements for all your commercial VHS tapes: a hundred of these would still only total a third the price of a used DataVideo (typically $900- $1200 on eBay).

[oln]

The combo has HDMI and component out even for the VHS section, so maybe whatever is causing issues is handled by the internal digitizer rather than the TV when using that.

The AG7350 does not have a TBC. There is a version of it (AG7355) that has a digital frame store for freeze frame and such, but otherwise the video circuit is all analog,

[orsetto]

The AG7350 does not have a TBC. There is a version of it (AG7355) that has a digital frame store for freeze frame and such, but otherwise the video circuit is all analog,

Oops.

Sorry, companda, I was confusing your 7350 with its lookalike sisters (i.e. 8700) that do have built in TBC. Panasonic recycled the 7350 design for several iterations, cleverly adding features by folding them into the menu button system located under the display window. It can be hard to keep them straight without a spec sheet.

So if the artifact issue does prove to be Macrovision-related, the 7350 by itself will not be able to correct it: you'll need an external TBC. Some (not all) later pro VCRs like the 8700 (or my Sony SVP-5600) with full-spec internal TBCs do wipe out MV effectively, but with most pro and consumer VCRs (1970, 1980, JVC) one needs an external TBC to digitize commercial tapes.

But re-reading your earlier posts, it appears both your BR/VHS combo and the 7350 were not manifesting the artifact with the same subset of tapes, only your 1970. If the repair tech gets your 7350 up and running again, maybe just use it instead of your 1970 (reserving the 1970 for EP/SLP or other tasks unsuited to the 7350).

[companda]

Oops.

Sorry, companda, I was confusing your 7350 with its lookalike sisters (i.e. 8700) that do have built in TBC. Panasonic recycled the 7350 design for several iterations, cleverly adding features by folding them into the menu button system located under the display window. It can be hard to keep them straight without a spec sheet.

So has your assessment changed regarding the level of difficulty required to work on this machine?

Up until the other day, the 7350 was my main player. I had my guy look at it after I purchased it off Craig's List and he said it looked brand new. It's been performing perfectly up until this noise issue. I'm still holding out hope it can be remedied, but should it not, my plan is to daisy chain my HS-U67 to my 1970. It's going to take two machines to do as good a job as the 7350.

Anyways, my guy is now closed on Monday's it seems, so I'll be dropping off my machines on Tuesday. Hopefully it's a quick turnaround. I'll keep you posted.

[october262]

Hello All!

Long time reader, first time poster! I have a question regarding digital noise I'm getting when using my DVD recorder as a passthrough. Here's my setup:

Panasonic AG1970p > S-Video Out > Toshiba DR430 > HDMI Out > Samsung LED TV.

The noise doesn't occur with every tape and when it does, it's mostly on images that have titles, but it has happened on scenes without them. This isn't a problem with other SVHS players using the same setup. Any thoughts? It's distracting enough to not want me to watch videos using this player, so any advice would be greatly appreciated!

have you tried to manually adjust the tracking ?? - https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/351639-Panasonic-AG-1970-creates-large-static-noise-on-screen