Indoor Antenna recommendation

[edDV]

Hi, sorry for the delay (due to my computer intolerance).

In response to yours, I'm not in a high rise, rather in a ranch-style house, and there probably are high-buildings as obstacles. I am, though, on the crest of a hill.

Are you saying that in such an instance, even an attic antenna might not work, but rather only cable would cut it, especially due to the advent of digital broadcasting?

I recently phoned Walmart again, and a girl told me they have in stock these models:

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-SDV2750-27-Amplified-Superior/dp/B001HVRAK4

She also read off: RCA 1837GM (which I can't seem to find via google

I don't see myself going cable, due to the expense, nor even rooftop (unless maybe there's something inconspicuous).

These are all worth a try so long as you can return them. You will need to go up and larger if these don't work.

Being on the "crest of a hill" is relatively good news. Line of sight to the ESB would be better.

I just happened to be in a Walmart today for the first time since the holidays. They had this Philips amplified antenna for $39 that looked interesting, but not the model you linked. This model can go indoors or on a pole outdoors. They also had some less interesting lower priced RCA models. Remember that you need both upper VHF (7, 8, 11, 13) as well as UHF.

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-MANT940-Digital-Outdoor-Antenna/dp/B000VL1QF6/ref=sr_1_1...916722&sr=1-15

[Nelson37]

I would highly recommend either the Zenith/phillips "silver Sensor" or the TERK Amplified indoor antenna, with the TERK being best.

Having lived with both for about a year, and tried several others, these work very well.

In testing, you need to know that these are Extremely Sensitive to very small adjustments in position or antenna orientation. A five-degree rotation can make a huge difference. A four-feet height increase can make a major difference. Going to a different room could go from crap to excellent.

Also, a human standing close to or in contact with the unit will affect reception.

There is a significant delay in the adjustment affecting the picture, the change is NOT immediate. 10-20 seconds or so.

So if you have it mounted high, which is best, you get to climb up, move it very slightly, climb down, check the picture, scan all channels, repeat. Loads of fun.

Time of day affects testing. Some stations either lower broadcast power or just have weaker reception at certain times of the day. Weather affects this as well. My local PBS is much weaker during the early afternoon, but after 5:00 it is clear as a bell except when it rains.

[edDV]

In most markets the broadcasters will be switching to their new digital transmitter-antanna systems and new channel numbers on Feb17. In those cases reception should improve or at least become a stable target for reception.

In markets like New York or San Francisco where most broadcast antennas are on a single structure, there will be months of low power or temporary broadcast antennas while the towers are rebuilt. Old VHF antennas need to be removed to allow installation of the new. While there are workers up there, power needs to be reduced.

Many other towers will be replacing or repositioning antennas in January-March. This explains the low power during daylight hours. They usually get the workers down and crank up the power for prime time.

Imagine this job.

[Minni]

Well, I guess I'll keep trying to phone the hopeless guys at Walmart (which uses up hours of my time) to see whether the manager or assistant manager is ever available to respond as to whether they'll soon be stocking a good quality Philips silver sensor or whatever.

Alternatively & more expensively, a Radio Shack in my area told me they have the Radio Shack HDTV antena which looks like a flying saucer & which is very good even in this area.

When I asked him if it has an LCD screen (thinking of the model I posted previously on this board), he said it does not, but I suspect it actually does. By mistake I had said LCD instead of LED - but I think he knew what I meant.

[edDV]

Well, I guess I'll keep trying to phone the hopeless guys at Walmart (which uses up hours of my time) to see whether the manager or assistant manager is ever available to respond as to whether they'll soon be stocking a good quality Philips silver sensor or whatever.

Alternatively & more expensively, a Radio Shack in my area told me they have the Radio Shack HDTV antena which looks like a flying saucer & which is very good even in this area.

When I asked him if it has an LCD screen (thinking of the model I posted previously on this board), he said it does not, but I suspect it actually does. By mistake I had said LCD instead of LED - but I think he knew what I meant.

This going to be a time waster. Ask Radio Shack if you can try it and return it if it doesn't work. Most likely you will need something like the Channel Master above outside on a pole, or something larger in the attic. Antennas perform about 50% in an attic vs. outside depending on obstructions.

[Minni]

Well, since a pic is worth words, I made a very amateur demo of my situation (see attached GIF).
Note the window I sketched.
That's the [northwest] bedroom where my HDTV is.

Whereas the red arrow points southeast, toward NYC.
That's at opposite corner of house (where kitchen is).
That's the too-noisy side of house, & why I moved to quieter northeast bedroom.
There's rooms & obstructions between kitchen, and northwest bedroom-corner.

First Question
Assuming I get some sort of outdoor antenna (like channel master or whatever).
Assuming I place that outside the blue window.
That would make it the opposite corner of where NYC is.
However, assume I'd get an attic antenna;
since the attic is one long open room,
would that have less obstruction than placing channel master outside the blue-window?

2nd Question
Alternatively, let's say I try the RadioShack [starship-style] indoor antenna;
Woud it work better near the blue-window (even if it's on indoor-side)?
Or would it make no difference even if it's in middle of room (not near the window), due to the bedroom being at NorthWest corner, furthest from NYC?

[vhelp]

On occasion, my signals (stations) drop to zero. When that happens, I panic for a while. But I'm assuming that it'll all change, Feb 17, 2009, which is only a few short weeks away, almost.

If you can afford it, experiment (like I did) by getting one of the small size channel master antennas for the attic. I'm on the top floor and got an attic anttena (see below) if results do not improve, you can always return them. If mail order is not acceptable in this cercumstance, then go for one of the Radio Shack antennas. They are returnable. At leat get an idea of the situation in your apt/house and see if you get better results. Bring a small tv and hdtv tuner/reciever with you up their and test, test, test. Once you got what you feel is best, you can run the right size length cables, pre-amp, and/or amp to everything and go from there.

But, for what its worth..

It has been my experience that if an antenna is too far inside any given room then it will not be very effective in receiving broadcast signals. I've tried this in my apt. It just doesn't work. It has to be close to the wall, though usually near the window is prob best.

If you have lead in your window then it will act as a shield and hinder your signal--at least that has been my experience when trying to receive satellite signal. And when we changed our window, the satellite worked right through the window (window closed) and strong signal was available. When I asked a tech he said that if you have lead-based windows the signal get blocked or bounced off or something like that. That around 4 years ago when I still had satellite service. But too bad I cancelled it though, because I could finally keep my window closed in the winter, keep my electric bill down, plus I could hide the "dish" behind my curtain out of site from outside curious george's. In any case, I suppose that this would apply to antenna signals as well, but we have other junk in our walls that may be part of the cause, add to that the location and distance I am from NYC. I get nothing. But in the location I'm in, I have an alternative: a set of Connecticut stations

I have the outdoor/attic antenna (Radio Shack: VU-75XR) I picked up for $39 bucks, and have it
stacked on empty boxes--some day I'll make a proper stand or rig a pole or something.

I have a 25' foot or so coax cable running from my bedroom to my living room and over to my computer where I have it connect to my pctv pro hd stick.

I also have an el-cheapo (radio shack: 15-2505 for $49 bucks) bi-directional cable tv amplifier at the base of the antenna. Its prob not the recommended amp, equip, combo, etc., but it did/does work for me, though prob on account of the long cable run. I got it on a huntch that it might help my long 25' cable run, so I got it, exspecting to return it, but the thing did actually help me get some channels in better or should I say, stronger. So, I kept it ever since. It has a variable-gain control. So, I'll be waiting for when they *DO* turn up the wattage in all the (antenna) towers and see if the unit helps even more, as some channels may need to ben turned down via the gain control. I don't know. I'm just theorizing at this point.

For now, I'm waiting for them to go official to full (wattage) power, and then I will determine if I need to change some things for the better: ie, new antenna, preamp, cabling, etc., etc., etc.

Right now, I seem to be getting ABC pretty strong: 100% though drops to 85%, but that's ok. The channel doesn't seem to hickup. So, I'm pretty happy at the moment.

Yeah, the hit TV Series, "Lost" starts this wednesday and I'm shaking all over with anticipation and full of adrenlyn rush and whatnot. just between you and I, I knew it was John Locke in the coffin. Oh man, I can't wait !!

-vhelp 5000

[lordsmurf]

I ran into similar issues, antennaweb data not quite 100% reliable.

[Minni]

Anyone responding to this post,
please refer to my above post containing red, blue, & violet.

I'm thinking of first trying the RadioShack flying saucer antenna, then figuring out which long cable to get to extend it to the adjacent bathroom window (which is actually more accessible to the HDTV than the pictured blue window. The bathroom is East of the bedroom.

The cable would have to go thru the bathroom entrance & along the upper-post of the door & beyond to the window which is above the toilet.
The window above toilet has an outdoor thermometer directly outside the ledge where the antenna would rest & I'm wondering if:
(1) the 3" deep ledge can accommodate the antenna (BTW, the antena would block window from opening
(2) the outdoor thermometer might interfere with signals

It's like, wherever I turn, there's stumbling blocks. Trust me, you can't imagine.
I myself can do nothing in the attic. I'm too weak to balance on the joists. Rather, I'd go crashing thru the sheetrock beneath into the house.
I don't even know if there's any outlets in the attic to test the TV, except maybe the attic fan connection on the West side of house.
To get to the attic, I'd need to go out front & around the house in the snow to the backyard, to get the ladder, then back inside, & prop the ladder up to trapdoor.
I definitely would need a handyman who knows what he's doing.

[edDV]

Patience, I'm just back from a long drive from San Francisco, shopping the IKEA and Fry's sales on the way.

Q1
I see this gif


I'd put the real antenna on the red side facing NYC (Empire State Building)* then route the RG6 cable through the attic to the blue window (or poke a hole through the wall**).


*Try from the red side of the attic first. If that doesn't work, try a mast mount outside. Use a compass to point the antenna at the ESB.

** An installer will be able to put an antenna jack in the wall. He/she will "fish" the cable from the attic down the wall to the jack.


Q2
Try the Radio Shack antenna first. It will try to find the signal through the house to the opposite wall. Think line of sight.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Minni,
You have been trying to get reception with an indoor antenna for almost a year now,I think you need to bite the bullet and get cable.I'm not being unsympathetic but since you are unwilling to install an attic/outdoor antenna then cable is your only choice.

[edDV]

This may be a temportary installation for the next 4-5 years. Then the Freedom Tower will take over transmission for most NYC stations.

[Minni]

EdDV, thanks!
I guess I'll try the Radio Shack, but assuming [flinch] the attic option is necessary, how does one find an installer in the yellow pages? I looked under Televsion, but only saw cable or satellite installers.
Also, I'm not sure what you meant by "real" antenna. Whether you meant that monster with all the rods sticking out, or whether you meant that Mast antenna on the pole.

Some added notes:

5:30 pm Tues. I decided to experiment by moving the TV from the n.w. bedroom to the s.e. kitchen, at the corner of kitchen closest to NYC & right near window with no obstruction.

Whereupon:
Channel 7 ABC (analog) was very clear (with the RCA's dipoles either Up or Down)

Then:
tried un-screwing the RCA's coax from the TV --> no signal (so I reconnected coax)

Then:
tried Digital Channels --> terrible signal, even at that southeast corner near window

Immediately after testing the TV in the kitchen:

I transferred it back to the northwest bedroom.

Whereupon:
Channel 7 (with the dipoles Up) was a bit less clear than in the kitchen.
There was some instability - i.e. streaks swimming across.

Maybe this helps explain the situation better.

[edDV]

EdDV, thanks!
I guess I'll try the Radio Shack, but assuming [flinch] the attic option is necessary, how does one find an installer in the yellow pages? I looked under Televsion, but only saw cable or satellite installers.
Also, I'm not sure what you meant by "real" antenna. Whether you meant that monster with all the rods sticking out, or whether you meant that Mast antenna on the pole.

The satellite installers can probably do it or recommend someone. Also you can call the Gov't DTV 800 numbers and ask for an installer reference.
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/dtvantennas.html
http://www.dtvanswers.com/dtv_antenna.html

A real antenna would be the Channel Master shown above (or larger) mounted outside on a pole although it might work from the attic.

Some added notes:

5:30 pm Tues. I decided to experiment by moving the TV from the n.w. bedroom to the s.e. kitchen, at the corner of kitchen closest to NYC & right near window with no obstruction.

Whereupon:
Channel 7 ABC (analog) was very clear (with the RCA's dipoles either Up or Down)

Then:
tried un-screwing the RCA's coax from the TV --> no signal (so I reconnected coax)

Then:
tried Digital Channels --> terrible signal, even at that southeast corner near window

Immediately after testing the TV in the kitchen:

I transferred it back to the northwest bedroom.

Whereupon:
Channel 7 (with the dipoles Up) was a bit less clear than in the kitchen.
There was some instability - i.e. streaks swimming across.

Maybe this helps explain the situation better.

That helps a lot. Channel 7 is currently analog but will switch to digital on Feb17. The fact that you can receive a clear picture on the NYC side of the house indicates a strong chance of success with an attic or outside antenna. You say the UHF digital channels are there but weak. This shows that a more powerful UHF antenna will be needed. Again I'd recommend at least the Channel Master 2016 (attic or pole as required). A larger antenna in the attic is an alternative to outside mounting.

Next sizes up.
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/DIGITAL%20ADVANTAGEtenna.html#

CH-2016
CH-2018
CH-2020

[Minni]

Thanks so much for your tons of help, edDV!

I jotted down the FCC number, though as said before, I hope to try the RadioShack first.

[edDV]

Annother tool for antenna research.

Google now has great topo maps called "Terrain". These help ID obsicals between you and the transmitter. Zoom in for elevation detail. Google Earth allows you to turn these sideways.


I think these might be of help to VHelp up in Ct.

[vhelp]

I think these might be of help to VHelp up in Ct.

Actually, I'm in Westchester county, New York, not Connecticut. But since I can't get any signal channel(s) from NYC, I have the fortunate alternative (lucky me, I guess) of receviing Conneticut stations because I pointed my antenna at a different direction. Actually, what I did was set my HDTV receiver (at the time) to display the signal strength on screen (for each channel) while I turned the antenna until I noticed the bar (or precentage) rise. Well, I didn't have a listing at the time, so it was hit and miss but fun hunting around for new channels. But the efforts were worth it. Anyway, as of right now, I am receiving two major stations:

NBC 1920x1080i/30fps, and
ABC 1280x720p/60fps

..from Connecticut. As I stated earlier, I also found *two* new stations that were recently added to the HD scene. So that added to the excitement since there is very little channel offerings over antenna to begin with. The more the merry, right!

My suggestion to anyone having trouble obtaining broadcast stations in your supposive-areas, should try and point your antennas in the opposite direction--better yet, find a website that lists channels *nearest* to you and point to the location(s) in those listings. Or find a website the lists them easily for you. If anything, it may be a good excercise, plus, you may be surprise at what is out there for watching.

-vhelp 5001

[Minni]

Hi, I know it's been a while, & thanks for the interesting followups!

In the interim, I bought & tried the RadioShack antenna, but the RCA actually offered better reception, so I returned the RadioShack, which I found to be a cumbersome & a nuisance to boot, what with the adapter cord barely stretching to reach where I needed it, & so forth.

Plus:
I tried them both in the bedroom and in the kitchen, within a few minutes of each other.

During the process, I spoke to a very knowledgable laid-back "older" guy at a RadioShack approx. 15 min. from here, and he told me that customers in his area find the basic rabbit ears better, and he advised me to hold out until the air-waves become purely digital (wether in February or later), because then there would be less analog signals to interfere, and so forth.

He didn't know of anyone around here who can help me get an attic antenna installed, but he suggested that I might try the geek squad at BestBuy. He said that would cost big bucks though, and I'm wondering how big the bucks might be.

Sorry for the drag & that my news wasn't cheerier.

[edDV]

Hi, I know it's been a while, & thanks for the interesting followups!

In the interim, I bought & tried the RadioShack antenna, but the RCA actually offered better reception, so I returned the RadioShack, which I found to be a cumbersome & a nuisance to boot, what with the adapter cord barely stretching to reach where I needed it, & so forth.

Plus:
I tried them both in the bedroom and in the kitchen, within a few minutes of each other.

During the process, I spoke to a very knowledgable laid-back "older" guy at a RadioShack approx. 15 min. from here, and he told me that customers in his area find the basic rabbit ears better, and he advised me to hold out until the air-waves become purely digital (wether in February or later), because then there would be less analog signals to interfere, and so forth.

He didn't know of anyone around here who can help me get an attic antenna installed, but he suggested that I might try the geek squad at BestBuy. He said that would cost big bucks though, and I'm wondering how big the bucks might be.

Sorry for the drag & that my news wasn't cheerier.

The Channel Master or Winegard help lines might give you a reference. Also you can try to call the TV stations for advice. Sounds like Radio Shack isn't gearing up to the task. It wouldn't hurt to sound out the Geek Squad at Best Buy.

[Minni]

The Channel Master or Winegard help lines might give you a reference.

That's an idea!
Re: calling TV stations, I'd tried that a few weeks ago, and one of their engineers (believe it or not) had eventually returned my call. He'd said he lives in a way out place in North Jersey where he doesn't get good reception. I believe he said he uses a rooftop type antenna to bypass that problem.

[edDV]

I think these might be of help to VHelp up in Ct.

Actually, I'm in Westchester county, New York, not Connecticut. But since I can't get any signal channel(s) from NYC, I have the fortunate alternative (lucky me, I guess) of receviing Conneticut stations because I pointed my antenna at a different direction. Actually, what I did was set my HDTV receiver (at the time) to display the signal strength on screen (for each channel) while I turned the antenna until I noticed the bar (or precentage) rise. Well, I didn't have a listing at the time, so it was hit and miss but fun hunting around for new channels. But the efforts were worth it. Anyway, as of right now, I am receiving two major stations:

NBC 1920x1080i/30fps, and
ABC 1280x720p/60fps

..from Connecticut. As I stated earlier, I also found *two* new stations that were recently added to the HD scene. So that added to the excitement since there is very little channel offerings over antenna to begin with. The more the merry, right!

My suggestion to anyone having trouble obtaining broadcast stations in your supposive-areas, should try and point your antennas in the opposite direction--better yet, find a website that lists channels *nearest* to you and point to the location(s) in those listings. Or find a website the lists them easily for you. If anything, it may be a good excercise, plus, you may be surprise at what is out there for watching.

-vhelp 5001

VHelp, Minni,

Check out the coverage maps at TV fool. They have online lower resolution maps and detail torrent downloads.
This is the current WABC-DT Ch45.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dWABC-DT


Zoomed in

[edDV]

This is WTNH-DT ABC10 New Haven

[vhelp]

I don't know why mini insist on aiming antenna at NYC only, when could aim it at Conn. and NJ for at least some stations. Might get better reception/signal strength than I am and/or more channels..i don't know..only have point antenna eastward for Conn., and SW-ward for NJ to see..i get nothing from NYC..nothing.

. . .

I'm curious about the wattage standards..and what to expect from all the broadcasters, and when they go official to digital and turn on/up their wattage power to their fullest.
I'm assuming that all are suppose to be at a standard: 1500kw, ie..i made that value up.

Q: what is the standard (fullest) wattage that broadcasters are suppose to have ?

if WABC-DT 45 (7.1) is currently operating at 219kw now, and I can' get anything from them, as of now: I wonder if, when they are at full power, will I receive them (given their current 219kw rating) after feb/19th.

. . .

That WTNH 10 (8.1) (currently @ 20.5kw) is the channel I mostly get the clearest and strongest, with nbc the more trouble-some at times. And the stranger thing is that it is so low in wattage right now but I get it better than most other channels (nbc for ie) so it would be interesting to see how much better the signal strength I do get from it. Sometimes its between 80-100 percent, others, less, but does hickup a lot at night during certain programs that I want to watch: Lost, ie..I couldn't watch it last Wed night because the naighbor next door to me was on the cell phone most of that night..is usually at work, but because of the snow that evening/night, work was cancelled, I guess.

. . .


* compass view: NJ, NY, NYC, Conn.

In looking at the compass, I'm guessing the follwoing to mean:
1-top are upstate/north NY channels
2-lower-left southward are NJ channels
3-lower-south are NYC channles
4-upper right-eastward are Conn channel



* channel listing: Westchester, New York

-vhelp 5018

[edDV]

The main issue is whether you have unobstructed line of sight to the tower or are blocked by buildings or terrain. On the TVfool listings you will see line of sight "LOS", "1-edge", "2-edge" etc. to describe terrain blockage. VHF channels bend around hills better than upper UHF.

Each station has its power and antenna plans in the FCC database. The FCC regulates to "effective radiated power" which is a combination of antenna design and raw transmitter power. Also, VHF and lower UHF need less power to get the same service contour vs. upper UHF.

WABC transmitter filings:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=1328
They have so many because of temporary issues on the Empire State Building. It looks like the Feb 17 CH 7 configuration will have 11.69 kW ERP @405meters height. There is a CP for an antenna change to 505 meters with 5.59 kW ERP. They are trying to reach the same contour.

TV = Analog NTSC
DS = Special Temporary
DX = Digital Auxiliary (backup antenna)
DT = Digital Television Station

CP = Construction Permit

WTNH-DT Ch 10 New Haven shows no change post Feb17. It will remain 20.5 kW ERP @ 342meter antenna height.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=74109

See contour maps here. These represent the goals for coverage. They don't factor terrain or building blockage issues.
WABC-DT @405m http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1247154.html
WABC-DT @505m http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1251321.html
WTNH-DT http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT989921.html

[Frank-0-Video]

Greetings ...

I have used both a classic Radio Shack UHF Bow-Tie antenna as well as the RCA ANT1050 flat antenna. Both do very well with nearby local stations, but if you want a station somewhat further away to come through, you should keep the connecting cable between the antenna and your TV/Tuner Device/VCR/DVD-Recorder as short as possible.

You should have just ONE cable between the antenna and the device it serves. Two or more cables connected together might have signal leakage issues.

Said cable should be Type RG-6, fairly well shielded, with high quality twist-on connectors at both ends. Solid Signal (perhaps others, too) sells cable that you can order to a specified length, and they will install the connectors on the cable for you. Nice.

One word about the RCA antenna - It has about a 3-foot thin 75-ohm cable with a simple twist-on connecter at one end. The thin cable would appear not to be well-shielded. A smarter design would have been to have a female twist-on connection on the antenna's assembly, allowing for a more thicker, well-shielded cable to be attached.

Thanx-A-Lot, Frank-0-Video

[Minni]

Don't worry guys - I'll wait it out.

BTW, I did try all directions and did get good reception on some foreign language NJ station with nothing that interested me.

Aside from that, the best reception lately had been from ABC.

A few days ago I got to my crummy Walmart, and took a look-see.
Here's what they stocked:

Philips SDV2210/17 - $10
Philips MANT 940 - $38

[edDV]

You'll need somethingbetter than that.

[Minni]

[edDV]

Still there Minni?

Well the day has arrived. All analog stations will be shut down by 11:59 est.

WABC-DT moves to Ch7.

I'm surprised there are no panic messages yet.

Current status in NYC.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10263760-1.html