First timer for VHS conversion -- will this 'work'? Suggestions welcome!

[someguy1]

Hi all,

Initially I purchased a Panasonic DMR-EZ47V and did the internal VHS to DVD conversion. I then ripped the file using MakeMkv to a digital format. While the results were 'ok', there's some 'noise' at the bottom of the recordings and a some 'flickering' on poorer recordings.

Since then, I've spent hours reading on the best approach for some home VHS conversions and it has become a little overwhelming, particularly given the poor availability of PAL equipment in my region -- I assume I need PAL equipment.

I have since purchased a DMR-ES35V (which supposedly contains an ES15 as the internal DVD recorder) as a first compromise for the stated 'TBC-ish' features to see if it cleans up the image...but I am happy to wait and locate the DMR-ES30V if this has better 'corrective' properties. I've read the PAL models are different to the NTSC models, so it is difficult for me to work out.

My questions are as follows:

1. If I use the DMR-ES35V to record from VHS to DVD and then rip the digital file to my computer, will the 'TBC-ish' corrective properties apply for the internal VHS to DVD burn? Is this the same for the DMR-ES30V?

2. If the above works, would the quality be similar to pass-through to a video capture device like the Hauppauge USB-Live2 or IO Data GV-USB2 to my computer?

3. Or does the 'TBC-ish' corrective features only work in pass-through? Does this mean I would need to connect the DMR-ES35V to a video capture device like the Hauppauge USB-Live2 or IO Data GV-USB2 to my computer?
OR does this mean
I would need to connect my DMR-EZ47V to the input of the DMR-ES35V via S-Video cable and then out to an S-Video capture device like the Hauppauge USB-Live2 or IO Data GV-USB2 to my computer)

4. Or, is it simply more effective to connect my DMR-EZ47V to the input of a DVD recorder like the ES15 or ES10 and then out to an S-Video capture device like the Hauppauge USB-Live2 or IO Data GV-USB2 to my computer?

5. Is the DMR-EZ47V or DMR-ES35V VCR sufficient in playback to achieve any of the above outcomes?

6. Am I better off ignoring all the above, and getting a VCR with inbuilt TBC such as Philips VR1100/02? Will this internal VCR TBC then work on passthrough to a capture device like the Hauppauge USB-Live2 or IO Data GV-USB2 to my computer?

Further, I am all ears for any other hints or tips or equipment suggestions. At this stage I don't want to spend a whole lot of cash -- I'd like to see if cheaper and easier-to-access equipment can achieve a reasonable result first.

Thank you.

[Alwyn]

For PAL, I can tell you this: the ES-15, ES-35V and the EZ-48V (and, I assume, the 47V) all have exactly the same Diga/Stabilising effect. There is no need to daisy-chain any of those together.

IMO the only improvement you'll get with your current gear and your current VHS>DVD>Rip to MKV workflow will be to do a lossless capture via the S-video Out using a digitiser such as the GV-USB2 or the Live2.

The next improvement would be an S-VHS VCR (with inbuilt TBC) with either of those digitisers. you would then leave out the Panasonics unless absolutely needed by a very dodgy, wobbly tape.

[someguy1]

For PAL, I can tell you this: the ES-15, ES-35V and the EZ-48V (and, I assume, the 47V) all have exactly the same Diga/Stabilising effect. There is no need to daisy-chain any of those together.

IMO the only improvement you'll get with your current gear and your current VHS>DVD>Rip to MKV workflow will be to do a lossless capture via the S-video Out using a digitiser such as the GV-USB2 or the Live2.

The next improvement would be an S-VHS VCR (with inbuilt TBC) with either of those digitisers. you would then leave out the Panasonics unless absolutely needed by a very dodgy, wobbly tape.

Thanks for the reply. So all the equipment you've mentioned are the same quality 'TBC-ish'? (I couldn't work this out in my reading, but that might be because of NTSC vs Pal model differences which makes things complex to work out) -- does this 'TBC-ish' correction apply when burning directly via the internal DVD? Or would this only work during 'passthrough' by playing the VHS in the ES-35V or EZ-47V and sending the signal straight to the GV-USB2 or the Live2 via the s-video out?

And do you recommend one digitiser over the other? On your profile I can see you have both

[Alwyn]

does this 'TBC-ish' correction apply when burning directly via the internal DVD?

I've never actually checked but I assume it does, because that is the purpose of the feature: to improve and clean up the VHS signal so it can be put onto the DVD.

And do you recommend one digitiser over the other?

GV for me, although provided you are using a stabiliser/TBC, the Live2 is as good. There is a topic here on VH where I did a comparison. I can't find it at the moment.

I should also add that my EZ-48 does a good job compared to my JVC S-VHS VCR; the 48's brand new and the JVC is "used", so that may be a factor but, for PAL, at least, applying a cost-benefit-analysis, if your captures look "great" with the 47V, stick with it. If you're brave, you could post a sample for the experts to "critique".

[Alwyn]

A Sharc comment:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401570-Hauppauge-USB-Live2-vs-IO-Data-GV-USB2#post2710514

[someguy1]

does this 'TBC-ish' correction apply when burning directly via the internal DVD?

I've never actually checked but I assume it does, because that is the purpose of the feature: to improve and clean up the VHS signal so it can be put onto the DVD.

The converted DVDs play mostly well with minor flicker of the image here and there -- but there is an annoying constant horizontal flicker at the bottom of the image in every tape when played via the burned DVD (see image) -- is this something a TBC/TBC-ish should fix? This might suggest if the TBC-ish circuitry is working when burned to the DVD or perhaps only via passthrough...or perhaps whether no TBC circuitry even present on the EZ-47V at all. See the image.

This bottom horizontal flicker is not there when playing the original VHS on the EZ-47V.

Funnily enough, the DVD plays clearer without the bottom flickering when played in the EZ-47V (which was used to burn it) only on my Panasonic Plasma from the same era. If I play the ripped file digitally on my computer or via DVD with the EZ-47V hooked up to a modern TV, these issues are there.

In all the above examples the EZ-47V is hooked up to HDMI(, as it was during the DVD burn process -- but I can't imagine that matters)

[Alwyn]

That is normal VHS Headswitching noise, and you'll get it, in varying amounts, with every VHS capture, so you have no particular issues with your gear. The DVD burn process would merely be transferring the headswitch noise to the disk.

The reason you can't see it on your plasma is probably because of slight overscan, where the image is zoomed just a tad so you don't see the ragged edges. This particularly applied to CRTs. With modern digital displays, you get the whole lot, rough edges and all. I understand some new TVs have selectable overscan, but my LG also gives me the works.

Depending on how serious you want to get, you can crop off the bottom (and proportionally off the sides) or apply a black mask/border over the top of it. I'm a cropper myself.

[someguy1]

You know, I've checked overscan and you're right -- this removes most of the 'headswitching noise' -- thanks for the terminology.

I can look at an S-VHS player with inbuilt TBC and hope this works in passthrough to get a better recording using one of those capture cards, or just use a capture card via S-Video with the EZ47V or ES35V.

However, given the EZ47V has HDMI, and if the TBC-ish circuitry works for the PAL versions, would capturing via the VHS inbuilt HDMI to a 1080p capture card like the Intensity Pro result in a better capture (I can source these from the US -- I assume that does not matter)? Or is the S-Video GV2 capture approach better?

I know some bag out the EZ48V (which I assume is similar), but that might be the NTSC version, and could be different.

There really seems like so many ways to approach this!

[Sharc]

Sidenote: I think to remember that there are models where the S-Video OUT is only useful for DVD playback but not for VHS playback or in passthrough operation. So keep an eye on "confirmed by members" models before shopping around. Can't give you specific models though with this restriction, so just a caveat. (I was wondering what the label "DVD PRIORITY" actually means on the S-Video OUT connectors of some of the Panny datasheets). From personal experience I can recommend the models ES15, E55 (PAL), EH50 for passthrough operation with "TBC-ish" functionality.
Also, a "lower-rated" VHS player in good condition may outperform a high-rated top model in worn condition, and a given tape may play best with a certain VHS model. Similar shopping caveats apply for (Panny) DVD recorders re. damaged capacitors or dark displays. So yes, there are many "if....then...."

[Alwyn]

I can look at an S-VHS player with inbuilt TBC and hope this works in passthrough to get a better recording using one of those capture cards, or just use a capture card via S-Video with the EZ47V or ES35V.

The S-VHS with inbuilt TBC will be better, but the question is by how much. Some say the TBC-ish Diga system does "damage" the video. I don't think this is a critical issue but if you are striving for "the best", then leaving the Diga (passthrough) box out of the workflow is preferred, letting the inbuilt TBC handle the job. That requires an S-VHS VCR with it fitted. I'd love to see what the difference would be. $500 Aussie from VCRShop is a big call though, based on my experience with my JVC S-VHS non-TBC

However, given the EZ47V has HDMI, and if the TBC-ish circuitry works for the PAL versions, would capturing via the VHS inbuilt HDMI to a 1080p capture card like the Intensity Pro result in a better capture

Based on my experience (EZ48V>HDMI), I would advise against it. A 576i capture through my Startech USB3HDCAP was not better than S-Video+GV-USB2, and with the HDMI route you have the added complication of HDCP, requiring a cheap 2-way "splitter" to defeat so the Startech would capture it. I assume the Intensity Pro, being a "proper" HDMI digitiser, would require the same. The cheaper HDMI digitisers don't, but their image is increasingly worse, the cheaper you go.

There is a German guide suggesting that all S-Video digitisers are worthless and that HDMI is the only way to go. I refute that. The 710-USB, the GV-USB2 and the Startech (in S-Video mode) all have image quality similar to the Startech in HDMI mode.

My suggestion: buy a GV-USB2, try it, post a sample here and then you can decide if you want to upgrade to a S-VHS machine with a built-in TBC.

[Alwyn]

EZ-48V PAL back panel:


[Attachment 77992 - Click to enlarge]

[Sharc]

There is a German guide suggesting that all S-Video digitisers are worthless and that HDMI is the only way to go. I refute that. The 710-USB, the GV-USB2 and the Startech (in S-Video mode) all have image quality similar to the Startech in HDMI mode.

My suggestion: buy a GV-USB2, try it, post a sample here and then you can decide if you want to upgrade to a S-VHS machine with a built-in TBC.

Agree. To start with.
If dissatisfied (flagging, wobbling ...), upgrade to a S-VHS machine with TBC, or use a recommended Panny model in passthrough which is probably more cost efficient/less risky these days.

[someguy1]

Thanks for the responses guys. I stumbled across that German site too, so that's why I asked about the HDMI output.

I've checked the manual and both the EZ47V and ES35V will display the VHS signal via the 'DVD out' (S-Video), so I assume this means any TBC-ish features should passthrough in the same way it would on an S-VHS VCR with built in TBC?

I might give this a go with the GV-USB2 first; but I'll be on the lookout for a reasonable S-VHS unit and see what I come up with. I'll update with whatever method I choose.

[Alwyn]

I assume this means any TBC-ish features should passthrough in the same way it would on an S-VHS VCR with built in TBC?

Me too.

[someguy1]

I assume this means any TBC-ish features should passthrough in the same way it would on an S-VHS VCR with built in TBC?

Me too.

An update. I've been testing out the GV-USB2 via the 'DVD priority S-Video out' on the EZ47V using (I believe I read somewhere it's actually your guide?) https://www.aaproductions.net/amarectv.htm

I followed everything including selecting 'PAL-B' under the video decoder settings (which I hope is accurate). The only thing I left default were the 'Video Proc Amp' values. I've compared a recording to the unit's straight to DVD burn vs the capture with the GV-USB2. The video on the straight to DVD burn is much more stable, whereas the capture with the GV-USB2 is unstable (picture jumps around) and is fuzzy. I imagine the 'TBC-ish' features have been applied to the straight to DVD burn which makes for a 'cleaner' image -- the same image correction does not seem to have been applied to the GV-USB2 capture.

I've tried connecting the S-video of the GV-USB2 to the 'DVD/VHS common out' instead, but cannot receive a signal. The only other variable I can think of is the S-video cable connecting the GV-USB2 to the VCR is quite long at 3m (and should be a good quality cable), but I'm not sure this would affect anything.

Have I done something wrong?

[Alwyn]

Yes, that is my guide.

To clarify, are you playing your tape in the EZ-47 or passing through it?

I haven't tried passing through it because I figure it's easier to just play the tape in the 47 in the first place. You'll get full stabilising then without the extra cabling from the VCR to the 47.

I don't have a lot of experience with long cables but others have said they should be kept as short as possible.

[someguy1]

Easy to follow guide, thank you.

Playing tape through EZ47 -- S-Video (and audio cables) from 'DVD Priority out' to the GV-USB2, then straight into my PC.

[Alwyn]

Hmm.. I'll set my 48 up and see if I can replicate your issue. Give me a few hours.

[someguy1]

Legend, thank you.

[Alwyn]

Here we go (all GV-USB2 captures, "LG" is the Composite-only VCR, "48" is the EZ-48):

Note: On the EZ-48, the DVD/VHS "Common Out" doesn't include the S-Video port in the corner; that port is for AV1 In (hard to spot! )

- Playing a tape on a Composite VCR gives a pretty bad recording.

- Playing a tape in the 48 stabilises the video a lot; minor vertical jitter

- Passthrough from Composite VCR to 48 the on to GV- slightly better than playing it in the 48.

- Recording to DVD (XP quality): pretty ugly, between Composite VCR and 48.

- Composite Out on the common lineout from the 48 was bad. Composite Out from the DVD Priority out was good.

The best of the lot is the Passthrough.

[someguy1]

Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it. Your recordings look more 'consistent' to what I'm getting. I've also tried my Samsung DVD-V70 on composite (S-video output doesn't seem to work) and the fuzzy image is still there when played back via my PC. Same as the EZ47V via PC playback after the GV-USB2 capture. This is not the case via the EZ47V internal playback and burn also played back via PC. I used the same settings and GV-USB2 for all the captures bar the internal DVD burn.

See images.

On 'Snip 1' the edges appear smoother, and the picture isn't 'fuzzy' -- this is the EZ47V via internal VHS playpack straight to an internal DVD burn. It doesn't appear to capture colours quite as accurately and the overall image is darker (probably too dark) but the image is 'smooth'. Maybe less detail. The image is only 'jumpy' for a few seconds, then remains consistent like a TBC-ish feature has been applied.

On 'Snip 2' is the DVD-V70 via composite (which actually records a lot more stable than the EZ47V via S-Video and even the internal DVD burn like a TBC-ish feature has been applied. The EZ47V video is shaky when recording via the GV-USB2). You can see there's a lot of horizontal 'fuzz' to the image. Not sure if this is supposed to be the case, or if it's supposed to be sorted in post-processing or something.

[oln]

What do you mean by shaky? The jittering on alwyn's tests it's likely a tracking/misalignment issue rather than the tbc feature not working, if it's the same on yours maybe the samsung is doing a better job with tracking or happens to work better with the misalignment on the tape. If the playback/tracking works better on the samsung for that tape you can just pass the output from that via the EZ47V and capture the s-video out from that to get the benefits of the tbc/stabilization. Sometimes just manually adjusting tracking can help but in the worst cases manual misaligment may be needed and that may not be something you want to do on an expensive panasonic dvd recorder combo. Linear audio playback tends to be a bit hit and miss on the samsung combos though, some of them have some interference on it in my experience, and I haven't found why, so if the tape doesn't have hifi that can be an issue.

The PAL samsung vcrs have adjustable sharpness in the menus if you think the auto function that's on makes it it's too sharp/soft, the panasonics do not. THe EZ47 and other panasonic dvd-recorders have digital noise reduction on by default which can be turned on/off in the menus.

[Alwyn]

Assuming the two snips are exactly the same frame...

You can see there's a lot of horizontal 'fuzz' to the image. Not sure if this is supposed to be the case, or if it's supposed to be sorted in post-processing or something.

Snip 2: the "jaggies" are normal for a recommended analogue capture: that's interlacing and can be cleared up using various means; depends on how you're creating your final delivery file eg MP4. VDub does a simple, reasonable job using the Deinterlace filter: YADIF, Double rate TFF.

Re Snip 1, that should also have jaggies, but it doesn't look like it does. You possibly have Progressive Output set up on the 47. In the menu: Others>Setup>Connection. Change Progressive to Off. It's best to do the deinterlacing in Post.

I think I like Snip 2 better: the edges look neater (notwithstanding the interlacing) and the colour of the light archway is more consistent. There's a bit of blotching in Snip 1.

[someguy1]

What do you mean by shaky? The jittering on alwyn's tests it's likely a tracking/misalignment issue rather than the tbc feature not working, if it's the same on yours maybe the samsung is doing a better job with tracking or happens to work better with the misalignment on the tape. If the playback/tracking works better on the samsung for that tape you can just pass the output from that via the EZ47V and capture the s-video out from that to get the benefits of the tbc/stabilization.

I mean the image flickers and is almost lost like the tape is of poor quality -- this only occurs when using the DVD priority S-Video out from the EZ47V to the GV-USB2, like tbc-ish features are not applied. This does not occur when recording internally via the straight to DVD burn -- which is rock solid after a few seconds, or at all via composite to the GV-USB2 via the Samsung unit, which is immediately rock solid.

Even though there appears to be an 'S-Video out' on the Samsung, I can't seem to get the s-video passthrough to work to the EZ47V. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I think it's only for DVD. I can get it to passthrough to work on the Samsung via composite, and then output via s-video to the capture card via the EZ47V. This is also rock solid.

Ideally, I want the TBC-ish features of the EZ47V to apply via the dvd priority s-video out to the GV-USB2, just like it does to the internal dvd burn -- not sure what the issue is.

[someguy1]

Assuming the two snips are exactly the same frame...

You can see there's a lot of horizontal 'fuzz' to the image. Not sure if this is supposed to be the case, or if it's supposed to be sorted in post-processing or something.

Snip 2: the "jaggies" are normal for a recommended analogue capture: that's interlacing and can be cleared up using various means; depends on how you're creating your final delivery file eg MP4. VDub does a simple, reasonable job using the Deinterlace filter: YADIF, Double rate TFF.

Re Snip 1, that should also have jaggies, but it doesn't look like it does. You possibly have Progressive Output set up on the 47. In the menu: Others>Setup>Connection. Change Progressive to Off. It's best to do the deinterlacing in Post.

I think I like Snip 2 better: the edges look neater (notwithstanding the interlacing) and the colour of the light archway is more consistent. There's a bit of blotching in Snip 1.

Thanks -- I've been playing with handbrake and deinterlacing, so I now see what you mean.

You're right, I do have 'progressive' on, but hadn't realised. This setting only appears to apply to the internal DVD burn, but has no effect when being used in passthrough, which is why I was confused.

[The_Doman]

Even though there appears to be an 'S-Video out' on the Samsung, I can't seem to get the s-video passthrough to work to the EZ47V. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I think it's only for DVD. I can get it to passthrough to work on the Samsung via composite, and then output via s-video to the capture card via the EZ47V.

If you check the Samsung DVD-V70 manual, it states the S-Video out only works for the DVD playback.
You see the same issue with other combo VCR/DVD units.