3D Bluray reauthoring with multiAVCHD is generating almost 2x original size

[afss2010]

I have been looking for ways to re-author 3D blurays, initially using multiAVCHD (which does a great job on 2D Blurays), but the output is always almost 2x the original ISO size. Even if I use the IMGburn option, the output is always larger the the original image.

There is something funny about the 3DBD structure, which is the fact if you look at the SIFF directory files and add up their sizes, it's already equal or larger than the actual ISO file. Not sure if this is a windows problem but, it seems to be the way multiAVCHD is seeing the file sizes to begin with.

Are there other alternatives to re-author a 3DBluray, meaning to add/remove subtitles and/or audio files ?

Thank you all !!

[Baldrick]

Moving you to our blu-ray ripping and reauthoring section.

DVDfab has added some 3d blu-ray support. I have not seen any other free software with such support yet.

[mrswla]

I don't see why you couldn't use bdrb to remove audio/subtitles. I try it with A Christmas Carol 3D (my first 3D BD) and let you know. I don't know what you could use to add audio/subtitles.

[afss2010]

Thanks for the prompt replies. I have tried DVDfab, but it only allows to remove HD audio from 3Dbluray. In fact it has several Ripping options to other formats such as MKV, but that's not what I am looking for.

My key objective is to add a new subtitle and language, as we do with 2D blurays using multiAVCHD.

Thanks again !!

[Cornucopia]

Bluray3D is a complicated beast, and one that people aren't used to yet. Here's how it works:

1. BD3D can encode the stereoscopic files in "Compatible" mode, and "Non-compatible" mode. Compatible mode uses 2 source files (L view + R view), and encodes using a special h.264 codec called "MVC" that creates a "MAIN" file and a "Derived" file (different companies use different terms, but the idea is the same). Non-compatible mode is different, but so far hasn't been used by any major companies, so I won't go into it now (plus, I need to do a little more research to make sure I'm using the correct analogies + terms).

2. The MAIN file is IDENTICAL to a standard h.264/AVC file (usually L, but could be R). The DERIVED file is a binary file that has encoded the difference between the L and R, much like P and B frames are "derived" from differences with the I frame (only theirs is same viewpoint-different time, whereas the stereo derived file is same time-different viewpoint). A stereo-aware and enhanced decoder would take the MAIN file and pass it along to the L buffer, then apply the DERIVED file to the MAIN, where the changes created get sent to the R buffer, and both are then displayed. Kind of like how audio engineers use a Mid/Side (or Sum+Difference) for stereo sound encoding/broadcasting to maintain complete mono compatibility.

3. The MAIN and DERIVED files are layed out on BD, where the MAIN file is kept in the standard STREAM folder as an M2TS file (for complete backward compatibility with 2D BD), and BOTH the MAIN and DERIVED files are kept in the SSIF folder as SSIF files. These are consecutively numbered, so where the MAIN might be STREAM0001.SSIF, the corresponding DERIVED would be STREAM0002.SSIF. The MAIN is a normal video file size, but the DERIVED is much smaller. These are layed out together so that the BD reader can read them consecutively and not incur a speed penalty. (edit: due to buffering efficiency reasons, the derived file is actually placed & read FIRST!)

4. If you do the math, you see that MAIN (as *.M2TS in [STREAMS]) + MAIN (as *.SSIF in [SSIF]) + DERIVED (as *.SSIF in [SSIF]) is ~2.5x larger than your usual 2D BD disc. That's wasteful, and the whole point of using the MVC codec was for space & bitrate efficiency with high quality. So, to maintain both backward compatibility AND efficiency, BD3D uses multiple "Hard Links" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_link). The MAIN file is only written on the disc ONCE and both instances (with different names in different directories) point to that same data. Thus, the TRUE size of a BD3D is more like ~1.5x a 2D BD. (Pretty much what the OP was noticing, but now it's not "something WRONG", it's meant to be that way)

5. If you ARE converting from BD3D to MKV (presumably over/under or side-by-side or dual-muxed format), you should end up with a pair of streams that are ~2x a single 2D stream. Obviously, this is more than the 1.5x BD3D, and so you must make allowances for the change (remember, you're no longer utilizing the high efficiency of the MVC codec, even if you're using a pair of h.264 streams).

6. If you can have a decrypted BD3D (using AnyDVD, etc), you should be able to make a identical disc image (with same size and retaining the hard links, since they're included in the UDF 2.6 filesystem on the disc) with Imgburn and the like, in ISO mode.

7. For others reading this, at the time of this writing, there is really only 1 true non-destructive/lossy method of ripping and converting a BD3D, and even using the newest shareware tools (see http://www.biohemmet.se/forum/viewtopic.php?id=245&p=7), it's not a simple or easy process at present. Good luck!

HTH,

Scott

[Baldrick]

I added 3dbdbuster to our tools list,

[Cornucopia]

You da MAN, Baldrick!


Scott

[afss2010]

Thank you very much for the outstanding explanation !!

The 3dbdbuster picture seems to indicate you can only add a new subtitle track on SBS and Over/Under mode. So I guess in order to add a new subtitle track while keeping all original 3DBD structure, may require this tool to evolve, or perhaps a new tool to become available !!

Regards.

[afss2010]

Yes, the new DVDfab version is quite nice, but still does not provide BD3D to BD3D reauthor capabilities. All the 3D ripping options are to other formats such as MKV, except BD3D.

We are yet to see a tool that is capable of removing/adding subtitles/audio to BD3D, without reencoding, and keeping the BD3D file structure. This tool exists for 2D BD, and I believe we are all familiar with it: multiAVCHD.

[michaeltsi]

More than 4 months have passed since this thread, I was wondering if there is a tool with BD3D authoring capabilities?

One more question on this subject - I have an MKV file of a 3D movie, and its format is 1920x2160 (looks like over/under of two 1920x1080 images). Is it possible to convert it back to a BD3D format?

Thanks in advance,

Michael.

[afss2010]

I have been doing a lot of research since my first post, and up to this point there seem to be very limited solutions. One of them is a combination of BDdemuxer pro 2.2 and Scenarist 5.5. The first is triaware and the second is a paid software.

I have sucessfully demuxed a few 3D titles, but I am struggling with Scenarist on re-creating the BD3D (I have created 2D Blurays sucessfully with Scenarist, on the other hand). I am now looking around for a Scenarist 3D tutorial, but have not been able to find anything yet.

[Cornucopia]

afsss2010,
To author BD3D with Scenarist, you need a 3D-capable version of Scenarist (v 5.5 or better) and MVC assets that rigidly follow their spec. Sonic also has "Cinevision 3D" which costs less (but still ain't cheap!).

BD3D is still cutting edge and very license/patent rich, so will be unlikely that there will be any cheap/free solutions anytime soon.

You may want to see if Roxio's Creator 2011 will do the trick for you, that's about as low cost as you're going to get for awhile. (michaeltsi, this might work for you, too.)
Scott

p.s. I read that you've GOT v 5.5 of Scenarist, so you should already have the documentation about how to author BD3D. There won't be any tutorials on the 'Net that aren't Movie Industry oriented (read $$$$).

[Cornucopia]

Just read up on Roxio Creator's specs - they DON'T support BD3D. Looks like their 3D abilities on disc is limited to Anaglyph DVD (and maybe "RealD DVD", whatever that ends up to be - since when have they been involved in anything but display technology?).

Scott

[afss2010]

Yes, Scenarist is about the only option at this point really. I feel I am almost there on being able to remux a BD3D, but I am missing a critical step that would allow me to sucesfully complete my authoring.

I have found what seems to be a Scenarist 3D tutorial, but I have nob been able to download it, since it appears to block IPs that are non-Chinese. If anybody wants to give it a shot, here goes the link.

Introduction to Blu-ray 3D Production.mkv
http://u.115.com/file/t5952c01a5


Please, if anybody is brave enought to try and get it, it would be nice to put it in a standard Hotfile link

Thanks in advance !

[Cornucopia]

Doesn't seem to work for me, sorry. I can't find the link (of course, not reading Chinese doesn't help - I should call my Brother-in-Law). Nothing seems to get me to a download.

Scott