old 8mm tape segment sound problem

[Moira123]

Hi all,

I am digitizing my old standard 8mm tapes to dvd. I am using a dvd recorder.

I have one very important clip on a tape of my mom and dad. Don't you know after playing back all these tapes that is the only one thats messed up. Even the video taken later on the same tape is fine. I have a little picture noise at the top of the screen that seems to coincide with real bad sound. I don't have the original camera that it was recorded on.

My question, is it the tape? All the other tapes play fine. If it is possible to buy a camcorder with tracking control, would that fix it or was it recorded that way. What can I do to rescue the one tape portion that I really wanted.

Any help would be appreciated.

[film]

Sounds like you might have physical damage on the tape, can you check it by carefully opening the cassette?

[Moira123]

I can try opening it. I have not opened one before.

[Moira123]

I may have to do this tomorrow. this looks intense.

[film]

There should be a small release button / latch that keeps the tape cover from opening while the tape is outside the camera. Pressing this will allow you to open the spring loaded cover to look at the tape without taking the casette apart.

[JVRaines]

There is a latch at the left side of the cassette. Pull it back, then carefully open the door. You won't be able to turn the reels until you depress the pawl lever, which is in a rectangular hole on the bottom. This requires three hands, so prop the door open first.

There is no manual tracking adjustment for the 8 mm formats. From your description, the tape is damaged in this section and probably unrecoverable. There is a small chance a different player will handle it better.

[johnmeyer]

I just did a large 8mm transfer project for a client. I hadn't used my 8mm deck for a long time and it came out of the closet broken. I sent that away for repair and bought a Digital 8 camcorder on eBay to finish the project. When my deck came back from repair, I played around with a few tapes and realized that there is indeed a difference in how 8mm tapes get played on different decks. So, I second the advice already given that you try to find or borrow another deck and try the tape in that.

[Moira123]

Thank you everyone, I should add a couple of notes.

The camera it was recorded on was a Sony CCD-F55. The camera I am playing it on is a Sony Digital DCR-TRV350.
The tape itself is a Sony P6-120MP standard 8. So its a two hour tape. I am assuming that this portion of the tape was recorded in SP. All my tapes are under 2 hours.
The TRV350 is set for PB Mode Hi8/8. To eliminate any distortion of switching between Digital and Standard.
I also turned off TBC and DNR in case they might be causing a problem. The recording I want was taped over a previous recording.
I also cleaned the camera with a video cassette cleaner.
Also I found a VHS tape that I recorded it to in 1998 using the original camera. It has the same audio/picture problem. Its really mostly sound than picture.

I don't know what damage I could see or if sending it out maybe a good idea. However if I possibly see some spill on the tape, what could I clean it with?

Does anyone have a recommendation on which old models would be good to buy for this tape?

[Moira123]

Ok, I inspected the tape. Opened the spring loaded door and pressed down on the center lever to allow the tape to turn. I didn't see any physical damage to the tape or dirt. If I held the tape to bounce the glare off of it, every once in awhile I saw short vertical interruptions in the glare but there was no actual wrinkle or crumple on the tape itself. I did my best to look at the non shiny side of the tape and couldn't see any obvious dirt. I am so glad I didn't have to take it apart to get a look at it.

Is my next step cleaning it? With some denatured alcohol? Is it possible that just that portion of the tape was recorded incorrectly but when I put the same tape in again to continue recording the obstruction dirt or whatever was gone from the inside of the camera?

[solarfox]

Ok, I inspected the tape. Opened the spring loaded door and pressed down on the center lever to allow the tape to turn. I didn't see any physical damage to the tape or dirt. If I held the tape to bounce the glare off of it, every once in awhile I saw short vertical interruptions in the glare but there was no actual wrinkle or crumple on the tape itself. I did my best to look at the non shiny side of the tape and couldn't see any obvious dirt. I am so glad I didn't have to take it apart to get a look at it.

Is my next step cleaning it? With some denatured alcohol? Is it possible that just that portion of the tape was recorded incorrectly but when I put the same tape in again to continue recording the obstruction dirt or whatever was gone from the inside of the camera?

Absolutely do not try to clean videotape with alcohol! That's a really good way to dissolve the binders that hold the magnetic oxides to the plastic tape and wreck the tape entirely.

While it's true that there can be differences in 8mm playback between one deck or camcorder and another, I have that same TRV350 Digital-8 camera, and it's always been pretty good about handling 8mm tapes from different camcorders (or at least mine has been, anyway), so... If the VHS copy you made of that tape, while playing the tape in the original camcorder, also has the same picture/sound issues as you're seeing on the 8mm tape now, then I'm afraid that verly likely means the recording itself has been flawed in that spot all along, especially if you can't find any obvious physical damage to the the tape itself at that point in the recording. In which case, there's very little if anything you can do about it; unfortunately.

[davexnet]

Perhaps the audio can be cleaned in an audio editor after the capture.

[JVRaines]

Also I found a VHS tape that I recorded it to in 1998 using the original camera. It has the same audio/picture problem.

In that case, the tape is likely not damaged. You have a bad recording, possibly having to do with incomplete erasure of the material it was recorded over.

[johnmeyer]

Well, if it didn't play in 1998, at a time when you still had the original camera, then most definitely it is a bad tape. My dad had all sorts of problems in the 1980s with his original 8mm Sony camcorder. He had it serviced multiple times and it was always creating tapes that had problems on playback. If you only have one bad tape, that is a pretty good record.

Do try, however, to find another deck, just to make sure you can't get a little more from the tape. If you get near-identical playback, with failures in the same places and failures that show the same problems, then there isn't much you can do. However, if you can get a few sections to play that didn't play on your first deck, then you should keep looking for additional decks. You probably won't be able to transfer the whole thing, but you might get enough sections to make the exercise worthwhile.

[davexnet]

One thing that wasn't mentioned, perhaps also try fast-forwarding to the end, then back to the beginning, then retest at the bad spot.
Sometimes uneven tension in the tape pack could be an issue. If not, I still think you may be able to improve the picture and sound
and repair that section after the capture.

[mazinz]

Your issue sounds like something I encountered many years ago with my original 8mm video camera. Over time the rollers misaligned. This eventually resulted in tapes getting chewed. However after having it fixed I noticed that tapes I had that normally played fine now played back in a similar fashion to the issue you mentioned, while others tapes (older) still played back ok and some newer were ok as well (oddly enough).

It turned out that whatever was recorded when the aligment really went out was obviously recorded differently than say when the alignment was fine. So after fixing the machine like new again, these tapes recorded after the misalignment did not play back correctly.

In order to fix this so I could copy them to dvd, I had to get another deck and slightly (with a screw driver) adjust the height of the rollers as the tape went through so it matched to the screwed level they were at when the tape was originally recorded (you can see that when the camera is hooked to the TV and the tape appears to play normal again with no issues)

This may possibly be a resaon why your tape is having issues upon playback. In your case I would make another copy of that clip you need and do any testing (if you decide to) with the video rollers on that copy and not mess with the original. See if you can eliminate your issue that way, if indeed that is your issue, worth a shot

[Moira123]

Ok, I inspected the tape. Opened the spring loaded door and pressed down on the center lever to allow the tape to turn. I didn't see any physical damage to the tape or dirt. If I held the tape to bounce the glare off of it, every once in awhile I saw short vertical interruptions in the glare but there was no actual wrinkle or crumple on the tape itself. I did my best to look at the non shiny side of the tape and couldn't see any obvious dirt. I am so glad I didn't have to take it apart to get a look at it.

Is my next step cleaning it? With some denatured alcohol? Is it possible that just that portion of the tape was recorded incorrectly but when I put the same tape in again to continue recording the obstruction dirt or whatever was gone from the inside of the camera?

Absolutely do not try to clean videotape with alcohol! That's a really good way to dissolve the binders that hold the magnetic oxides to the plastic tape and wreck the tape entirely.

Great News!!!!

UPDATE

The tape was not played back with the original camera. It was originally recorded with a Sony CCD-V3 that had just came out of the repair shop. It was in there because it kept losing power and shutting down. "Repair left solder connection in DD cover" So then I used a Sony CCD-F55 to play it back and make the VHS recording.

So does that mean that there is a chance I can get another camcorder to play it? I am also thinking about sending it out to a service if anyone know one.

Also, I am a bit shocked about the alcohol cleaning. I checked all over and even in this forum they said to use the alcohol. I am so glad I didn't. What do you suggest for cleaning?

[Moira123]

Perhaps the audio can be cleaned in an audio editor after the capture.

I don't think so. The audio is not there. Its skipping all together.

[Moira123]

Also I found a VHS tape that I recorded it to in 1998 using the original camera. It has the same audio/picture problem.

In that case, the tape is likely not damaged. You have a bad recording, possibly having to do with incomplete erasure of the material it was recorded over.

UPDATE

The tape was not played back with the original camera! It was originally recorded with a Sony CCD-V3 that had just came out of the repair shop. It was in there because it kept losing power and shutting down. "Repair left solder connection in DD cover" Then I used a Sony CCD-F55 to play the tape back to make the VHS recording. I still have the original 8 mm of that recording.

[Moira123]

Your issue sounds like something I encountered many years ago with my original 8mm video camera. Over time the rollers misaligned. This eventually resulted in tapes getting chewed. However after having it fixed I noticed that tapes I had that normally played fine now played back in a similar fashion to the issue you mentioned, while others tapes (older) still played back ok and some newer were ok as well (oddly enough).

It turned out that whatever was recorded when the aligment really went out was obviously recorded differently than say when the alignment was fine. So after fixing the machine like new again, these tapes recorded after the misalignment did not play back correctly.

In order to fix this so I could copy them to dvd, I had to get another deck and slightly (with a screw driver) adjust the height of the rollers as the tape went through so it matched to the screwed level they were at when the tape was originally recorded (you can see that when the camera is hooked to the TV and the tape appears to play normal again with no issues)

This may possibly be a resaon why your tape is having issues upon playback. In your case I would make another copy of that clip you need and do any testing (if you decide to) with the video rollers on that copy and not mess with the original. See if you can eliminate your issue that way, if indeed that is your issue, worth a shot

Thank you so much. Ok I don't know how to adjust the rollers on a camcorder and I would hate to mess up a camcorder that plays everything else fine right now. I'll check out youtube. But what you mentioned about making a copy to work on is interesting. How could you adjust the sound on a copy of a bad recording? I mean don't you need the original tape to do that? If I make a copy of bad sound, doesn't it just record the bad sound? I don't understand.

[JVRaines]

1. Do not clean videotape with anything. Leave it alone. Alcohol is for cleaning the transport and video heads.

2. There is a remote chance that adjusting the entrance and/or exit tape guides will improve your audio. But you need the right tools and you'll have to very precisely record the position of the guides so you can restore proper tracking when you're finished. You'll also need to remove parts so you have access to the guides. This is a job for someone who is mechanically-inclined and loves to work with many tiny, fiddly parts.

3. You're right — copying the tape for testing is a dumb idea and won't work.

[Moira123]

Well I do like to work on stuff but I don't have the tools or knowledge. So do you have a recommendation of who I can send it to?

[johnmeyer]

1. If other tapes play, but the "bad" one doesn't, you can eliminate ANYTHING to do with the 8mm VCR or camcorder. Don't touch anything.

2. NEVER put any cleaner in contact with the videotape.

3. As I said in my last post, if you have a dub made from the bad tape, and that dub was made years and shows the same problems, then I think that pretty definitively show you that the tape is bad.

I wouldn't chase this one too far because you'll end up doing real damage to either your VCR or to the good portions of the "bad" tape.

[mazinz]

Your issue sounds like something I encountered many years ago with my original 8mm video camera. Over time the rollers misaligned. This eventually resulted in tapes getting chewed. However after having it fixed I noticed that tapes I had that normally played fine now played back in a similar fashion to the issue you mentioned, while others tapes (older) still played back ok and some newer were ok as well (oddly enough).

It turned out that whatever was recorded when the aligment really went out was obviously recorded differently than say when the alignment was fine. So after fixing the machine like new again, these tapes recorded after the misalignment did not play back correctly.

In order to fix this so I could copy them to dvd, I had to get another deck and slightly (with a screw driver) adjust the height of the rollers as the tape went through so it matched to the screwed level they were at when the tape was originally recorded (you can see that when the camera is hooked to the TV and the tape appears to play normal again with no issues)

This may possibly be a resaon why your tape is having issues upon playback. In your case I would make another copy of that clip you need and do any testing (if you decide to) with the video rollers on that copy and not mess with the original. See if you can eliminate your issue that way, if indeed that is your issue, worth a shot

Thank you so much. Ok I don't know how to adjust the rollers on a camcorder and I would hate to mess up a camcorder that plays everything else fine right now. I'll check out youtube. But what you mentioned about making a copy to work on is interesting. How could you adjust the sound on a copy of a bad recording? I mean don't you need the original tape to do that? If I make a copy of bad sound, doesn't it just record the bad sound? I don't understand.

The point of doing a copy was to see if you could stabilize your picture. If you could with roller adjustment eliminate the "noise" on your picture, it could point to just a screwy off aligned record and potentially this means you might be able to salvage your audio, rather than saying that the clip itself is screwed from tape damage due to whatever was recorded on it before your clip was. I was just offering another option. As I mentioned I had a similar sounding issue to yours with some old 8mm tapes that ended up being from misaligned rollers while it recorded. Re-adjusting them on these tapes I was able to fix the issue, get the full sound back and make a nice copy to preserve on disc. The method is a bit techy however and I would recommend using another player and not your original, and thats even if its not truly old tape damage.

People on this board can also work miracles with audio. Any way you could post a sample of the audio? Someone here may be able to help you out and possibly really clean it up for you which would save you a headache

[Moira123]

Thank you mazinz and johnmeyer. I wish I knew how to adjust those rollers but I am afraid I do not have the expertise. I think I need to send it out. Any recommendations?

And for those just tuning in, I did not have the original camera when I made the VHS copy along time ago and I don't have it now either.