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  1. Hi,

    hoping that this is the right sub-forum here goes. After looking high and low I have found a rare DVD in England that I intended to present a friend in the U.S. with. The DVD is region 0 and so should not be a problem 'region-wise' but it is PAL encoded.

    I wonder (a) if a reasonably new (1-2 years old) U.S. market DVD player will be able to play it as is or (b) if I can somehow re-code it using my PC and some kind of OS software.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Goodluck Jonathan; 12th Apr 2012 at 08:43. Reason: Typo
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    Philips 3560

    in here theres directions to make the Dvd Region Free...I have one...works just fine
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  3. Originally Posted by Moontrash View Post
    Philips 3560

    in here theres directions to make the Dvd Region Free...I have one...works just fine
    Thanks Moontrash but the DVD is sold as region 0 so I don't forsee a problem with 'regionality'. It is the PAL/NTSC issue that is...the issue.

    There is great difference between the two formats. NTSC used to be somewhat inferior to PAL but the current version of NTSC is waay superior to PAL. Still, I had hoped that a modern DVD player could handle a PAL encoded DVD and that was my question sort of.
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    The Philips DVP3560 converts PAL video to NTSC on output when its "TV System" is set to "NTSC". Here is another catalog listing with more detailed information about the player. http://www.220-electronics.com/dvd/philips5980.htm
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    I also have the Philips DVP3560 and recommend it. Just set the video output to NTSC (it may ship in MULTI or ANY mode) and it will display your region free PAL DVD correctly on your TV. Any other video output setting you use besides NTSC may not display correctly, depending on your TV.

    The problem is that many TVs sold in North America cannot handle PAL input video at all. Samsung for example. Manufacturers do this deliberately to keep people from buying North American TVs and shipping them to places that have VAT (value added tax) as a way to bypass that. So you need a DVD player that can convert from PAL DVD output to NTSC output. Philips players can do this. With other manufacturers it is variable as so do this and some don't. A lot of the big names do not make players that can do this. Sony is notorious for not being able to convert between NTSC and PAL. DVD players sold in places outside of the USA and Canada are much more likely to be able to convert between NTSC and PAL.

    There's not a "current version of NTSC". Perhaps you are thinking of ATSC, but even there it is arguable whether it is better than what Japan (an NTSC country) and the PAL countries came up with digital TV. Many US videophiles complained about ATSC saying that once again the US picked inferior technology for its TV solution.
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  6. "I also have the Philips DVP3560 and recommend it. Just set the video output to NTSC..." yes jman, but I was trying to see what the chances were of a PAL-encoded DVD playing on an American player and TV.

    It is my feeling, right or wrong, that the newer the player/TV is, the more likely it is to be 'tolerant' of 'deviant' formats/standards. An example of this concerning audio: my 10 year old boombox will only play CD-formatted CD's and then only CD-R's. A CD-formatted CD-RW will result in a 'no disc or disc error' error msg.

    A new player, by contrast, would have no problem with a CD-RW and would furthermore play a CD with .mp3's, .wav's or .flac's on it. That's what I mean by tolerant and I think (without knowing for sure) that the same reasoning applies where video is concerned.

    "Many US videophiles complained about ATSC..." is that so? I have not watched TV in the U.S. since the late 1980's and my info is second-hand (brother in California) but I remember the horrible quality of Never Twice The same Color. I thought the format had gotten a major overhaul lately.

    Since making that first post I have mailed the person in the U.S. whom I intended to send the DVD to and asked for make, model and manufacturing year of her player/TV. With that info I have a better chance to decide from here (Sweden) wether the DVD will play or not.

    Else I guess I could just take my chances and send it - if it plays fine, otherwise the experimenting continues.

    Thanks all for your input.
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    The chances of your friend having a equipment that works for PAL are not good, unless he/she purchased with that in mind. TVs and DVD players sold in N. America are mostly incapable of displaying PAL video. Anyone living here who wants to watch videos imported from PAL countries using their TV and a DVD or Blu-Ray player has to make a special effort to find either a player that converts or to find a multi-system TV.
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    Originally Posted by Goodluck Jonathan View Post

    ...
    Since making that first post I have mailed the person in the U.S. whom I intended to send the DVD to and asked for make, model and manufacturing year of her player/TV. With that info I have a better chance to decide from here (Sweden) wether the DVD will play or not.

    Else I guess I could just take my chances and send it - if it plays fine, otherwise the experimenting continues.

    Thanks all for your input.
    As said above, Philips DVD players are most likely to internally convert PAL to "NTSC" (composite or YPbPr). The Philips 5990/5992 is also known to work.

    Blu-Ray players are more likely to play PAL SD DVD but this to varies by manufacturer policy. This is normally not included in published spec.

    All computers will play a PAL DVD.
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  9. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Goodluck Jonathan View Post
    "Many US videophiles complained about ATSC..." is that so? I have not watched TV in the U.S. since the late 1980's and my info is second-hand (brother in California) but I remember the horrible quality of Never Twice The same Color. I thought the format had gotten a major overhaul lately.
    ATSC was implemented for over the air digital broadcast in the USA back in the late 1990s with full implementation in 2009 when analog NTSC broadcast was eliminated.

    ATSC (with 8-VSB modulation) fits the US/Canada/Mexico broadcast model where one high power transmitter feeds large geographic areas (limited by earth curvature or terrain). Smaller countries have opted for DVB-T (COFDM modulation) where a higher number of lower powered transmitters are used to contain broadcast to local borders. Japan has implemented ISDB-T to replace analog NTSC and the older HiVision HD system. ISDB-T is similar to DVB but with features optimal to former NTSC regions. Most of South America has adopted the Japanese ISDB-T standard for digital broadcast.

    Click image for larger version

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    2012 is the year when the ATSC Version 2.0 standard is finalized. This revision will update features and codecs to similar levels now in DVB-T and ISDB-T. A new tuner will be required to access the new features.
    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/340097-Discuss-advanced-ATSC-broadcasting

    So in summary, the differences between systems are not so much about picture quality or features, but more about transmission methods and political boundaries.
    Last edited by edDV; 12th Apr 2012 at 12:19.
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    This has certainly been very enlightening! Kudos to edDV for the very professional and comprehensive update on video technologies. Still, nobody has really adressed the second part of my original question which was; if the DVD won't play on the recipents system (and that seems increasingly unlikely) then can it somehow be re-coded using my PC?

    I seem to remember that, for example, AVStoDVD offers me NTSC or PAL encoding when authoring DVD's if that is any indication. In case you hadn't noticed I'm vey much the n00b in these matters so to me, as to any person not burdened with insight and knowledge, this is easy, straighforward stuff..
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
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    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    I seem to remember that, for example, AVStoDVD offers me NTSC or PAL encoding when authoring DVD's if that is any indication. In case you hadn't noticed I'm vey much the n00b in these matters so to me, as to any person not burdened with insight and knowledge, this is easy, straighforward stuff..
    Yup, you are not burdened with insight or knowledge for sure.

    AVStoDVD might be able to perform the A/V conversion, but the original menus would be lost. The movie and any extras to be converted would first need to be ripped from the original DVD, and if menus are wanted, new ones would need to be created using AVStoDVDs menu wizard. All of that takes time even if you are familiar with AVStoDVD.

    Replicating the original menus in a re-authored DVD would require a good bit of time, a fair amount of expertise, and the use of other tools.

    Much easier to either play the DVD with a PC if the OP's friend doesn't have anything that can play a PAL disc. ..or get an inexpensive Philips DVD player if it is time to invest in a new one.
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    Right, got it. Thanks!
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  13. Or..... if the DVD player is capable of playing AVIs, maybe convert the DVDs to AVIs. I live in PAL-land where pretty much all our equipment can play NTSC, but once the video is in AVI format there's not really any PAL/NTSC issues to worry about any more. It's just a matter of whether NTSC, AVI capable DVD players care if the frame rate is 25fps? Anyone know? Would they just play it at 24fps?
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Or..... if the DVD player is capable of playing AVIs, maybe convert the DVDs to AVIs. I live in PAL-land where pretty much all our equipment can play NTSC, but once the video is in AVI format there's not really any PAL/NTSC issues to worry about any more. It's just a matter of whether NTSC, AVI capable DVD players care if the frame rate is 25fps? Anyone know? Would they just play it at 24fps?
    Most DVD players sold in N. America don't play .avi files and Blu-ray players made for N. America don't necessarily play .avi files either. If I recall correctly, the two Philips DVD players mentioned include that feature. Televisions made for the N. American market often won't display 25 fps video.
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  15. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Most DVD players sold in N. America don't play .avi files and Blu-ray players made for N. America don't necessarily play .avi files either. If I recall correctly, the two Philips DVD players mentioned include that feature. Televisions made for the N. American market often won't display 25 fps video.
    Wow. I had no idea. Given for the rest of the world it's almost impossible to find a DVD player these days which won't play AVIs, or a Bluray player which doesn't play AVI/MP4/MKV, or for that matter a TV with a built in media player which can't play them all, I just assumed it was a standard feature everywhere.

    I assumed it mightn't be common for NTSC TVs to have a PAL mode, but when it comes to playing AVIs I wouldn't have thought it'd matter if the refresh rate of the TV was 60hz rather than 50hz. In fact my Bluray player won't switch refresh rates unless it's playing discs, so if I'm playing video via a USB stick the TV refreshes at 60Hz even if I'm playing 25fps video. Even though I'm in PAL-land I think the TV does the same thing if I'm using it's built in media player.
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  16. VenusAndMars VenusAndMars's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Wow. I had no idea. Given for the rest of the world it's almost impossible to find a DVD player these days which won't play AVIs, or a Bluray player which doesn't play AVI/MP4/MKV, or for that matter a TV with a built in media player which can't play them all, I just assumed it was a standard feature everywhere.
    Perhaps it's the old "we won't adapt to the rest of the world - let them adapt to us or be damned" attitude otherwise found in, let's say, France and to some degree Britain?
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    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Wow. I had no idea. Given for the rest of the world it's almost impossible to find a DVD player these days which won't play AVIs, or a Bluray player which doesn't play AVI/MP4/MKV, or for that matter a TV with a built in media player which can't play them all, I just assumed it was a standard feature everywhere.
    Perhaps it's the old "we won't adapt to the rest of the world - let them adapt to us or be damned" attitude otherwise found in, let's say, France and to some degree Britain?
    No, for the major players such as Samsung. Panasonic and Sony it is the trans-shipment issue. They don't want highly taxed European consumers ordering equipment from the USA to get a better price. They solve this by blocking all 50 Hz video.

    The TV set and DVD players most likely to support both 60 Hz and 50 Hz are the Chinese models (including many Vizio models) that are sold worldwide. Korea and Taiwan models can go either way so need testing. Note that Chinese DVD players will output 50Hz PAL as 50Hz PAL so are unlikely to work with a typical USA TV. Philips is the exception that will in many cases convert 50Hz PAL to 60Hz NTSC in hardware.
    Last edited by edDV; 13th Apr 2012 at 11:25.
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    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    Originally Posted by hello_hello View Post
    Wow. I had no idea. Given for the rest of the world it's almost impossible to find a DVD player these days which won't play AVIs, or a Bluray player which doesn't play AVI/MP4/MKV, or for that matter a TV with a built in media player which can't play them all, I just assumed it was a standard feature everywhere.
    Perhaps it's the old "we won't adapt to the rest of the world - let them adapt to us or be damned" attitude otherwise found in, let's say, France and to some degree Britain?
    To add to what edDV said: Consumers and the entertainment industry in N. America also influence the features built into players and TVs. Consumers do not care about or want to pay extra for features that they do not use, and most of us living in N. America have little interest in playing imported DVDs or Blu-Rays or .avi files. The entertainment industry uses technology licensing and inter-industry agreements to influence features built into consumer electronics and the entertainment industry prefers that N. Americans buy discs made for their market, and wants to discourage illegal downloading and format-shifting from disc to .avi.

    This is a huge market, and the companies that have the largest share of the consumer electronics market here can afford to build devices made specifically for N. America and still make a handsome profit.
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    You're right again edDV, there are practical reasons for the difficulties. Still, if for instance the 50/60 Hz thing is part of the problem, then perhaps some countries would do well to set national pride aside and adopt the metric system.

    Btw - wasn't the metric system conceived of in France following the French revolution? A revolution which was in part caused by France's participation in the American revolutionary war? And...and...sorry, this has nothing to do with video standards.
    Last edited by VenusAndMars; 13th Apr 2012 at 11:05. Reason: Typo
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    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    You're right again edDV, there are practical reasons for the difficulties. Still, if for instance the 50/60 Hz thing is part of the problem, then perhaps some countries would do well to set national pride aside and adopt the metric system.

    Btw - wasn't the metric system conceived of in France following the French revolution? A revolution which was in part caused by France's participation in the American revolutionary war? And...and...sorry, this has nothing to do with video standards.
    The 50/60 Hz thing is essentially based on electricity. 60 Hz countries can use the metric system and most do.
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    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    You're right again edDV, there are practical reasons for the difficulties. Still, if for instance the 50/60 Hz thing is part of the problem, then perhaps some countries would do well to set national pride aside and adopt the metric system.

    Btw - wasn't the metric system conceived of in France following the French revolution? A revolution which was in part caused by France's participation in the American revolutionary war? And...and...sorry, this has nothing to do with video standards.
    Blame Pres. Jimmy Carter for wimping out on metric conversion. Initially he was in favor of metric conversion (as were many business interests) but ran into strong public opposition.

    The 50Hz/60Hz issue is unrelated to metric. It was about the price of copper in the 1920's. The USA had vast native copper supplies. Europe had to import copper so adopted narrow gauge wire and higher voltage. This was considered unsafe in the USA but Europe went with the cheaper solution.

    See details in this thread
    forum.videohelp.com/threads/331275-Why-no-standard-for-frames-per-second?
    Last edited by edDV; 13th Apr 2012 at 11:24.
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    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    You're right again edDV, there are practical reasons for the difficulties. Still, if for instance the 50/60 Hz thing is part of the problem, then perhaps some countries would do well to set national pride aside and adopt the metric system.

    Btw - wasn't the metric system conceived of in France following the French revolution? A revolution which was in part caused by France's participation in the American revolutionary war? And...and...sorry, this has nothing to do with video standards.
    Swedish cultural imperialism... We are happy with the system we have, already use the metric system along side our own for the sake of visitors and trade, and making a complete change to 50Hz, including electricity and broadcast TV would be exceedingly expensive.
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  23. "Swedish cultural imperialism..." whoa! Looks like it's time to end this discussion as some of us are getting cranky and this really is nothing to throw a hissy-fit over...it's only eletrixity, friend
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    You're right again edDV, there are practical reasons for the difficulties. Still, if for instance the 50/60 Hz thing is part of the problem, then perhaps some countries would do well to set national pride aside and adopt the metric system.

    Btw - wasn't the metric system conceived of in France following the French revolution? A revolution which was in part caused by France's participation in the American revolutionary war? And...and...sorry, this has nothing to do with video standards.
    Swedish cultural imperialism... We are happy with the system we have, already use the metric system along side our own for the sake of visitors and trade, and making a complete change to 50Hz, including electricity and broadcast TV would be exceedingly expensive.
    Besides, the now dominant computer industry is firmly in the 60Hz camp (historically related to 60 minute/hr. clock) so if anyone needs to convert, it is the 50 Hz TV world.

    The way this historically relates to TV is the TV scan rate needed to be in sync with electrical lights or you got flicker (from florescent lighting) and/or rolling hum bars in the video cameras and monitors. Modern cameras and TV sets are less affected so it would be possible for the 50 Hz world to convert television to 60 Hz while retaining 50 Hz for power. Lighting is rapidly moving to DC LED anyway.


    PS: Also note that most all 50Hz "PAL/DVB" digital TV sets are already 60Hz capable for PAL 60 and computer interface.
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    Originally Posted by Goodluck Jonathan View Post
    "Swedish cultural imperialism..." whoa! Looks like it's time to end this discussion as some of us are getting cranky and this really is nothing to throw a hissy-fit over...it's only eletrixity, friend
    Yes that was rude, and I apologize. We in the US get tired of hearing that our measurement system and electrical standards needs to be completely abandoned and made to conform with standards used elsewhere. The people suggesting it rarely think about the cost of making the conversion or the disruption it would cause in everyday life, or how rude they are being by suggesting it.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Yes that was rude, and I apologize. We in the US get tired of hearing that our measurement system and electrical standards needs to be completely abandoned and made to conform with standards used elsewhere. The people suggesting it rarely think about the cost of making the conversion or the disruption it would cause in everyday life, or how rude they are being by suggesting it.
    That's cool man. I can well se how its tiresome to be lectured by any two-bit banana-republic that itself is no shining example in any area how to run things. This happens way too often.

    I am a swede but my loyalties are as much to the U.S., that greatest working example of democracy the world has known, as to my own country.

    It sometimes occurs to me that you Americans do not always fully realize what a great country you have. As a favorite author of mine, the naturalized U.S. citizen and Ben Franklin biographer Christopher Hitchens might have said: leave it to a foreigner to properly appreciate America.
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    OK love and kisses but in time shouldn't 50Hz video phase out?

    This would be done by dual standard in "PAL land" until everything is 60Hz.
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    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    OK love and kisses but in time shouldn't 50Hz video phase out?
    This would be done by dual standard in "PAL land" until everything is 60Hz.
    Anything's fine by me as long as we agree. 'You say tomato...' etc. But I do hope the better system wins. I remember, because I was around at the time, how the technically superior (at the time at least) BetaMax video standard lost out to VHS for reasons unknown to me.

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    Originally Posted by VenusAndMars View Post
    Originally Posted by edDV View Post
    OK love and kisses but in time shouldn't 50Hz video phase out?
    This would be done by dual standard in "PAL land" until everything is 60Hz.
    Anything's fine by me as long as we agree. 'You say tomato...' etc. But I do hope the better system wins. I remember, because I was around at the time, how the technically superior (at the time at least) BetaMax video standard lost out to VHS for reasons unknown to me.

    Ubuntu/We Are One
    I was around then too. Betamax had an edge for quality but at the cost of low record times. Consumers wanted to record movies not 30 min sitcoms. Betamax wasn't intended for movies.

    The 50Hz vs 60Hz issue is the new Berlin/Chinese wall. It prevents the 50Hz world from full participation in the digital transition.
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  30. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    We in the US get tired of hearing that our measurement system and electrical standards needs to be completely abandoned and made to conform with standards used elsewhere. The people suggesting it rarely think about the cost of making the conversion or the disruption it would cause in everyday life, or how rude they are being by suggesting it.
    Where I am our currency went metric while I was two. The conversion to metric for everything else started when I was around ten, but in some areas it took many years for a complete transition in order not to burden industry too much. I still think of weight in imperial and length in metric. For years I had to convert kms back to miles to appreciate distance/speed.
    Like much of the rest of the world, we manged to cope.
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