DVD+R burn on DVD-R media possible ?

[anotherfalcon]

Hi,

sorry for the dumb question, but so far I was not able to find an answer on if there are any manufacturing material etc. differencies between DVD-R and DVD+R media. I am putting stress on media, not the 'format' per se.

I have heard guesses that suggest that DVD-R media was using material that was more reflective... Any comments on this ?

My question is, say, I am able to get hacked firmware that will let me burn media that is labeled DVD-R with a media/book-type DVD+R settings. Is this possible ?

Is the difference in DVD-R and DVD+R in the reflective material used and respectively a different wave-length of the laser, or is just different type of phase (I assume) modulation ?

Anyone ?

[rcb]

Some searching/reading in this link may help:

https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#more

[lenti_75]

why would you do that ? that is dumb, to burn a - media with a + specifications.
you have to decide, it's either + or -
there is hacked firm that allows you to set te bits from +R/RW to DVD-Rom, that is super, beacuse makes your dvd as compatible as an original one, but that depends on drive model.....
the answer is no, not that I know of....
why would you need that for??? I still don't find an aswer...

[anotherfalcon]

I expected such a reaction ...
... calm down lenti, I know what I am asking,
just hold it until I explain ...

I have NEC ND-1100A burner (DVD+R) that I flashed with hacked ND-1300 firmware that, yes, does allow me to change the book type to DVD-ROM (for more compatibility**). And I can do that. Now, I have a choice to get a large number of those fancy DigitalMovie Verbatim DVD-R and DVD+R's from BestBuy on half-price sale (ok, I know that this is just the fancy cover, and I know who is the manufacturer, I know...)

Anyway, I would like to be burning them with higher compatibility*** to send to friends and family, and once again, I asked myself the question on what is the difference in the media ?...

I heard a wild guess from somebody that the DVD-R were having better reflectivity material... and, once again (sorry), I wanted to clear up this completely, such that to know what to answer that guy...

It is my personal opinion that there should not be difference in the material or laser wavelength, but it is in the type of the modulation (which I think is a pahse-shift one) that is the difference.

You, however, do not answer my question, but just jump on the guns ... I'd appreciate more informative replies, not just opinions. Thanks.

That is why I was wondering if I can get DVD-R's (which I never used so far) and if I will be able to burn them ok on my ND-1300 firmware modified burner.

I was simply asking if:
a) somebody had done it (I don't want to reinvent the wheel!)
and
b) if someone knows more about the media differencies in DVD+R and -R
...that's all...

Now, please, if anyone had done this or knows something about the media material, please, step forward.

Lenti, you are welcome to tell me why you would not do it - provided that you have some information that we don't. I respect your opinion but I am asking for information.

Thanks,
Falcon

NOTES:
** DVD-ROM bitsetting 'improves' on the compatibility, but is in fact just a trick that works for the older DVD players. So it is not solving all compatibility issues, that may arise, say from weaker laster unit.
*** On DVD-R vs. DVD+R compatibility read the excellent info on:
http://www.lordsmurf.com more specifically htpp://www.triuneweb.com/sites/lordsmurf-com/othervideo/dvdformats.htm

[anotherfalcon]

Some searching/reading in this link may help:

https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#more

RCB, thanks for the info,
I've read this one - very good but, not really explaining technically if there are differences in the laser wave-length, method of modulation, or media material.

Very good one, nevertheless !
Thanks !

[gmatov]

I think the laser is equivalent,as both are the same thickness/depth to the recording layer.

I dont, however know what the ATIP is, nor the pit spacing, nor all that other stuff. I don't have the URL handy to send you to the site to check, but would be very surptised if you could somehow burn to the "other camp's" media by such a simple trick as a firmware upgrade.

They ARE competing to win the standard. Billions involved. Basically, Screw you., you ain't gonna burn them on US.

The big hangup there is, the f'in things are so cheap, today, in dual format, that the only pipple who even care anymore is the yoyos who bought a 500 buck + or - machine when they came out, and are pissed that you can get a dual for 80 bucks now. You burn, basically, anything, they are stuck with one format. And the f'in thing is ready to burn out any day now.

Sigh. Them poor early adopters. King of the hill for 3 weeks. Then they're a buncha dodos.

Just ain't no justice, is there?

Cheers,

George

[anotherfalcon]

Thanks for the hints George,

yes, I agree a 100% with you - that it does not make much sense if you think money.
I see posts people implying that DVD-R were cheaper... hummm ?... What I see nowadays... there are alsmost the same or exactly the same price...

I don't do it for money, I do it for fun. I got NEC ND-1100A for $58, and upgraded its firmware to ND-1300 thanks to Etna, and now can burn both DVD-R and DVD+R. See these wonderful firmware pages: http://forum.rpc1.org/dl_all.php, Etna's pages at http://etna.rpc1.org/ and this forums links on firmware on this page: https://www.videohelp.com/dvdwriters.

But, then I came across a guy suggesting that the DVD-R media material (die) was actually more reflective ... and I thought... humm... can I then use DVD-R media to write with DVD+R settings...(or DVD-ROM bitsetting)... and, once again, I find myself wanting to learn more about the differences in construction, method of writing etc. between DVD-R and +R, not so much if it makes sense... (because it may be doesn't )...

Anyway, thanks for the hints (key words to search for). Here what I found for the ATIP -
thanks to G@M3FR3@K:

Every CD-R has important info on the disc itself which is called ATIP (Absolute Time In Pre-groove) or pre-groove for short. Without this data/info the CD-R cannot be used by a writer. The ATIP contains the following info:

* The capacity of the CD-R
* The manufacturer of the CD-R
* The type of the CD-R (eg. Audio only)
* Supported writing speeds
* Absolute lead-in time
* Last possible address where data can be written
* etc...

Only a CD-Writer can read the ATIP (because like I said before this ATIP is only needed when writing a CD-R).

Just one comment - I read somewhere that it is not true that only CD-burners can read the ATIP info, there are some CD-ROM's that do this also, but, very-very few.

Anyway, then searching for the "material differences" in DVD-R/DVD+R I came across this very technical and good white paper on DVD-R and CD-R:
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/DVDR47_WhitePaper.pdf

Anyway, just for the fun... I continue searching on this topic ...

[anotherfalcon]

Hi again,

here's what I was able to find on "media diffecrencies", courtesy of BurnWorld.com:

Media Differences: Although DVD-R Authoring and General drives will only record on their respective DVD-R media types, both media types will play or be read in the same category of player and reader devices.
For DVD-R Authoring and General drives, and media, the non-interchangability is due to different color write lasers and thus a different composition in the recording layers on the discs. The two types of media will both play on DVD Video player sets and be read by DVD-ROM drives, however.

If you take a look at the wonderful white paper by Pioneer noted in my previous post (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pioneer/Files/DVDR47_WhitePaper.pdf) we can summarize SO FAR this:

1. There seems to be no difference in the laser wavelength for writing and reading DVD-R (burners and players)
2. From 1. we can try to guess that there is, possibly, no difference in the wave-length when READING of the DVD+R and DVD-R (this is because it is said that all generic, public DVD players can play the disks almost equally well)
3. There IS, however, difference between the laser wavelength on DVD-R "Gneneral" and DVD-R "Authoring" media types. All consumer media, however, is only "General" type.
4. Similarly to 3 and 2, there might be difference in the laser wave-length while BURNING DVD-R and +R - but there is NO information that such difference is in place.

Question 4. is important to answer, because it will give the answer to "if the -R amd +R media is different ?". Different laser-wavelength most likely implies differen die material.

Different die material will answer the question if the reflectivity of DVD-R is better than DVD+R. Hence compatibility with weaker laser units (as public generic players, Xbox, PS2)

Well, the quest goes on...

[Agent 0008]

All I know is using any -R disk on my Lite-On 411S I get choppy play back, using +R I get perfect discs. I now only use +R's.

[gmatov]

Damn, I left the MaxPC mag I was reading at work today.

That particular issue had a sidebar on the wavelengths, from something like 900nm a few years ago down to 385 or 450 or something for the Blu-ray coming up.

It did not show a difference in -R +R wavelength.

I think it more likely a difference in the dye, but not +-, more like brand to brand, or maker to maker, or reseller to reseller.

On the line of those here who have read their disks and found fake Ritek or whatever.

They buy dies (pressing dies, not ink dyes) with the info in ATIP, and spatter and spin dye as they want, an inferior dye giving an inferior disk.

So, if you have, say, a Taiyo-Yuden + and - actually made in Japan (the best from many posts here), and ran the read utility, Infotool or whatever, the only differences should be the book type data, has to be different, of course.

Each should burn equally as well, with the big caveat that some duallies burn 1 format better than the other.

My own LiteOns are supposed to have an issue with -, they supposedly burn + better. I have used both, and don't make coasters, or not many of them.

There is another prob with the info readers, and that is the masters are cut on a special lathe, and I do not think if another presser wants a master that they change this data to reflect another pressing house's real name. Nor can they tell what dye is going to be used, but it is cut into ATIP, also.

So, if Harry's House of Disks presses with a Taiyo master, it reads like that, but the dye type, spec'd also, can be anything that costs a few cents less that month.

Mebbe the rest of the sites posters have a very large point in "You get what you pay for.". You buy genuine Maxell, for example, and you get genuine, you have a good burn. You buy Max under another name, it doesn't matter if it says the same thing, you may, may not get good media.

If Harry bought a million from Max and relabeled the cake box, good disk. If Harry bought a master, pressed his own, and bought junk ink, or spun them too long, or not long enough, it reads the same data, but everybody gets pissed at the junk "genuine" Max, hey, DVDinfotool Pro said it's genuine, I'll never buy that junk Maxell again.

Lots to think about on this subject, hey?

Cheers,

George