Another avi to VCD MB-size-limitation question

[lerxst]

I am trying to create a VCD from an AVI file and this is what I have done so far:

- Original AVi size: 717 MB (85 minutes)
- Converted using TMPGEnc to VCD compliant MPG file
- Resulting MPG file size: 870MB

I then try to author the VCD with Nero and of course, the file size exceeds the limit.

Is there a way that I can fit this onto a single VCD or will I have to split into two VCDs?

Is there an application that will compress the VCD output file so that it will fit into a single VCD, in the same way that DVDShrink works for DVDs?

Thanks in advance for any guidance provided.

[redwudz]

A problem with the VCD format is it uses a fixed bitrate of 1150kbps. You may be able to produce a VCD with a slightly lower bitrate that would play with no problems. If you use the standard bitrate you would have to split the VCD to two discs. Or if you can locate a 90 minute CD blank, that's another option.

You might take a look at the upper left for 'What is' VCD and you will see the VCD specification.

[aedipuss]

you might be better off going to dvdr. the price of 2 cd blanks if you went the vcd or svcd route is about the same as 1 dvdr blank and the quality would be superior on dvdr.

[lerxst]

Thanks for your replies. From this I gather that there is no simple way to do this. I guess the best option would be to go the dvd route.

thanks again.

[jimmalenko]

VCD (MPEG-1) video can be a max of 1150kbps - it can also be lower than that and still be fully compliant. Unfortunately Nero tries to tell you that it *must* be 1150kbps. However, there's a tickbox (something like "create standard compliant VCD") which you can untick and it should accept your MPEG without trying to transcode it.

So use a bitrate calculator and encode your AVI to VCD MPEG-1, but change the bitrate so that the file size will be just less than 800MB, and then it should fit on a normal" CD.

[lerxst]

Thanks jimmalenko! I'll give that a try!

[anadiner]

Yeah, Roxio's Easy Creator 5.0 also tries to tell you that the bitrate MUST be 1150. If I have a file that I don't mind losing a little quality on, I lower the bitrate to 950 then use VCDEasy for making the VCD. VCDEasy accepts it with no problem.

Good luck.

[jagabo]

You can use the free version of TMPGEnc to create MPEG1 VCD files with whatever bitrate you want.

[jman98]

You can also try burning to 90 minute CD-Rs instead of re-encoding to a lower bit rate. Please note that the 90 minute CD-Rs do not comply with CD-R standards, but most burners can burn them and most player can play them. I don't know if it's still true, but I do have to warn you that in the past, Roxio could not overburn and you have to overburn to burn to 90 minute CD-Rs. Nero reads them as 80 minute discs and you tell Nero to overburn them up to 90 minutes and it works. I throw that out as a possible alternative, but I leave it up to you to decide if doing that is better or worse than re-encoding to a lower bit rate. The quality will suffer with the re-encode, but on the positive side you shouldn't have any trouble burning or playing the disc. Nero will also make you have to burn it as a non-compliant VCD with a bit rate under 1000.

[vitualis]

I too would advise trying a 90min CD-R disc as well... It's the simplest solution.

Regards.

[aedipuss]

vcd is defined as CBR 1150. period. if it's 1149 or anything else then it's NOT vcd.

[jimmalenko]

vcd is defined as CBR 1150. period. if it's 1149 or anything else then it's NOT vcd.

Nope.

VCD is 1150kbps max, but the video component can be any bitrate, provided the frame size stays at 352 x 240/288, the format stays at MPEG-1 and audio stays at MP2 44100Hz 224kbps.


[EDIT]
Correcting my own misinformation:

Audio must be MP2 44100Hz, but can be Joint stereo, stereo or dual channel audio streams at 128, 192, 224 or 384 kbit/sec bit-rate, or mono audio streams at 64, 96 or 192 kbit/sec bit-rate.

[jagabo]

Well, until someone can produce the White Book spec I'll go along with Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD

the video bitrate is required to be 1150 kilobits per second

And Doom9:

http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/vcdsvcd_faq.htm

VCD has fixed bitrates for both audio and video: 1150KBit/s for video and 224KBit/s for audio. Anything else is non-standard and known as XVCD.

Of course, in practice, most players can handle lower bitrates too.

[jimmalenko]

Well, until someone can produce the White Book spec I'll go along with Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD

the video bitrate is required to be 1150 kilobits per second

And Doom9:

http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/vcdsvcd_faq.htm

VCD has fixed bitrates for both audio and video: 1150KBit/s for video and 224KBit/s for audio. Anything else is non-standard and known as XVCD.

Of course, in practice, most players can handle lower bitrates too.

Wikipedia ... well, what can you say ?
Doom9 should know better though.



http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/bchafy/cdb/info/vcd.html

3.2.5 MPEG parameter definitions of White Book

Audio coding method: MPEG-1 Layer II
Sampling rate: 44.1 kHz
Coded bit rate: 224 Kbits/sec
Mode: stereo, dual channel, or intensity stereo

Video coding method: MPEG-1
Permitted sample rates:
352 pixels/line x 240 lines/frame x 29.97 frames/sec (NTSC rate)
352 pixels/line x 240 lines/frame x 23.976 frames/sec (NTSC film rate)
352 pixels/line x 288 lines/frame x 25 frame/sec (PAL rate)
Maximum bitrate: 1.1519291 bits/sec

http://www.icdia.co.uk/cdprosupport/vcd/vcd2x/vcd_specs.htm

MPEG video stream bit rate, max: 1.151929 Mbits/sec
MPEG Audio, trackable: 44.1 KHz sampling, Stereo, 224 Kbits/sec

https://www.videohelp.com/vcd

Video CD 1.1
The Video CD specification requires the multiplexed mpeg-1 stream to have a CBR of less than 174300 bytes (1394400 bits) per second in order to accommodate single speed cd-rom drives. The specification allows for the following two resolutions:
• 352 x 240 @ 29.97 Hz (ntsc sif).
• 352 x 240 @ 23.976 Hz (film sif).
The CBR mpeg-1, layer II audio stream is fixed at 224 kbps with 1 stereo or 2 mono channels. It is recommended to keep the video bit-rate under 1151929.1 bps.

Notice how they all state that audio is fixed at 224kbps, but all speak about max when talking about the video side of things ? That's what I'm talking about ....


[EDIT]
All the above standards seem to be quoting VideoCD 1.0. In 2.0, audio has more flexibility in bitrates as specified a few posts up.

[aedipuss]

from ulead - quoting the white book standard
http://www.ulead.com/learning/general/video_01_1.htm

VCD - 'Video Compact Disc'
A CD-ROM disc that contains video and audio. Typically, a VCD can hold about 74 minutes (650MB) of video and stereo-quality audio. The video and audio are stored in MPEG-1 format and follow certain standards (White Book). VCD video quality is roughly the same as VHS video.

VCD Video Parameters Settings

Frame Size: 352x240 (NTSC) or 352x288 (PAL)
Frame Rate: 29.97 frames/second (NTSC) or 25 frames/second (PAL)
Video Data Rate: 1152 kbps
Audio Settings: Stereo, 44.1kHz and 224kbps audio bit rate
VCD Playback Options:

Almost all stand-alone VCD or DVD Players with CD-R or CD-RW playback capabilities (See DVD player manufacturer for compatibility)
Computer DVD/CD-ROM drives with playback software


anything other than cbr 1150-1152 is non-compliant and may not work in a vcd player. it becomes xvcd.


quote your sources and i will mine. not too interesting anymore though, used to be a good time 10 years ago. until they actually tried to play one with a lower bit rate.

[jimmalenko]

quote your sources and i will mine.

By the looks of it, your source says just what settings the Ulead products use, and is not a statement of standards at all.

Would you like me to point the differences out ?

[jagabo]

Guess it will cost $200 to find out for sure:

http://www.licensing.philips.com/includes/download.php?id=162&filename=162.pdf

Video-CD Specification White Book
Product code 3122 783 0067 1
Category 1B
Price US$ 200

It wouldn't surprise me if the spec itself is ambiguous.

The closest I've been able to get is this SVCD document from Philips:

http://www.licensing.philips.com/includes/download.php?id=2698&filename=2450.pdf

Which implies a set 1.15 mbps for VCD 2.0 in the table that compares VCD to SVCD.

[Cornucopia]

sorry jimmalenko,
your wrong on this one. I have at least 3 other Philips documents (they would be the ones to follow) that say specifically (IIRC) 1150 kbps ONLY, no more no less. In practice with modern players, sure you could do less if you can get away with it qualitywise, but that is the standard. For compatibility, you stick with the standard.

Scott

[jimmalenko]

I have at least 3 other Philips documents (they would be the ones to follow) that say specifically (IIRC) 1150 kbps ONLY, no more no less.

If you recall correctly ?

Well, that's set in stone then


I believe I'm right, but will happily admit I'm wrong should someone be able to find something that says fixed 1150kbps, and not max 1150kbps.

[Cornucopia]

I'll get those for you, just don't have time now. About to go on a shoot for 2 days. Will retrieve when I return.

IIRC meant could be 1150, 1152, etc don't remember the exact number (though it's around there), but it IS only 1 number.

Till then,

Scott

[jimmalenko]

Thanks.

[jagabo]

Although it's really only of academic interest to me, I'd like to see a definitive answer too. It's been discussed here so many times...

[vitualis]

Fixed bitrate for old old players that played at only one speed (i.e., single spin CD drives that were converted CD-DA drives).

I don't think that the actual video bitrate matters so much as long as it was "chunked" into the appropriate pack size (i.e., if you don't have the bitrate to fill a pack, it is filled with null data). So yes, in a way it is only one video bitrate only as any deficit to the maximum allowed is filled with null. The significance of this is that for a "compliant" VCD, using a lower bitrate will not buy you more time on the disc.

Regards.

[jimmalenko]

I don't think that the actual video bitrate matters so much as long as it was "chunked" into the appropriate pack size (i.e., if you don't have the bitrate to fill a pack, it is filled with null data). So yes, in a way it is only one video bitrate only as any deficit to the maximum allowed is filled with null. The significance of this is that for a "compliant" VCD, using a lower bitrate will not buy you more time on the disc.

I think you might be onto something there. It would certainly explain why in TMPGEnc you can choose any bitrate you want, but you still get the standard 10MB/min if you choose the MPEG-1 VideoCD multiplexing option.

So you could use any bitrate, but at the end of the day there needs to be padding, which means that in the context of the OP's question, it won't help them any anyway. Correct ?

[Cornucopia]

jimmalenko,

I apologize!

You were right. I found 2 of the documents (Philips tech doc that accompanies VCDToolkit, and another doc that accompanies SVCD Designer/Toolkit), and they both said 1.152###..bps*.

That little "*" led to footnotes which said "maximum", for pretty much the reasons you and vitualis laid out.

Well, even old dogs can learn new tricks every once in a while...

Scott

[jimmalenko]

I apologize!

You were right. I found 2 of the documents (Philips tech doc that accompanies VCDToolkit, and another doc that accompanies SVCD Designer/Toolkit), and they both said 1.152###..bps*.

That little "*" led to footnotes which said "maximum", for pretty much the reasons you and vitualis laid out.

Well, even old dogs can learn new tricks every once in a while...

Great work !


As I said above, it's only a technicality really, as there is a fair bit of evidence to suggest that vitualis is on the right track also. It does not have any real world implications as far as more time on a CD or anything because of this, so in the context of the OP's question, it's kinda a moot point.

But congrats firstly on standing by your word to find out, and secondly for telling it how it is. I certainly wasn't sure down to a "I've seen the specs" level, so it is certainly a good feeling to know that my sources on this have been accurate.

[Nelson37]

Seems to be established that a bitrate of UNDER 1150 makes it a valid VCD.

However, this can be useful as you can mux without padding, achieve a smaller file, and SFAIK this will play in almost all standalone players. VCDImager had this option, IIRC.

I think I only did this once but it did work, though I'm not sure anyone would really want to get that low.

[KBeee]

The best advise for the OP seems to be "suck it and see" if his player will play a lower bitrated VCD.
As an experiment a couple of years ago, I burned 2 hours onto a CD (tmpgenc - VBR), which my old Sony 305 played beautifully. The picture wasn't good of course, but acceptable.

[vcd4ever]

Seems to be established that a bitrate of UNDER 1150 makes it a valid VCD.

Yes, but only if the mpeg has a muxrate of 176400 bytes/sec.

vcd4ever.

[BJ_M]

someone should correct http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_CD