Weird SD 4:3 and 16:9 Clip - How to display it properly via Avisynth?

[VideoFanatic]

Clip attached. This video is 544 x 576. When I play it on my PC it plays in 4:3 and it looks in proportion. However it also has big top and bottom borders on it which are a part of the video.

Could someone please explain what the heck is going on here. Why would a TV show air like that? The whole series airs like that.

How do I re-encode this correctly to remove the bars but have it still be in proportion? I removed the bars, did a resize to 720 x 576 and tried encoding in 4:3 but it looked squashed. Tried 16:9 but faces looked stretched. I want a Bluray compliant resolution.

[DB83]

If you can read this.....

You have to crop 72 lines top and 72 lines bottom and then resize back to 720*576 before encoding to 16:9.

You lose some of the picture but that is inevitable.

Why do they do it ? You can reduce the bitrate = less satellite resources = cheaper to transmit.

[johnmeyer]

I have learned a lot the last few years, capturing both 4:3 and 16:9 video. Sometimes the station sets their equipment to match the aspect ratio, but sometimes they do not. I guess they might do it to save a few pixels and lower the bandwidth, but I think the more likely explanation is that they forgot to "throw the switch." We're almost ten years since broadcast stations switched to 16:9 HD, and there is a still a huge mix of SD, HD, 4:3, and 16:9 programming. Even when a station shows an old 4:3 TV show, the commercial inserts are almost always 16:9.

So what to do?

Well, the key thing is to get as many non-black pixels onto the video you capture. Don't worry if they get stretched or warped. To do this, you want to go to your cable box/DVR and look for the "stretch" settings. Watch the video on your capture device and play with the stretch until the video fills up the screen in your capture app, but without cropping. Don't worry if it looks stretched. Then, when you are going to create your final video, you can change the PAR before you render.

This workflow may need to be altered if you are trying to capture in one step, without a final render at the end. I never to that because I want to get rid of commercials, adjust color, etc.

[Budman1]

Just a quick question here, because I'm still trying to learn... I downloaded the video and it showed:


So I cropped and resized to 16/9 and 3/2:


Are these wrong and how would I know the size it should be?
Thanks

Please pay no attention to the Anamorphic note. It's my program I haven't fixed yet.

[smrpix]

Appears to be 14:9 in a 4:3 frame which was very popular with BBC (and others) a few years ago as a transitional "compromise" broadcast format.

[VideoFanatic]

Is there a way to get it in PAL or NTSC Bluray compliant format without distorting the picture and losing a lot of the image?

[smrpix]

Is there a way to get it in PAL or NTSC Bluray compliant format without distorting the picture and losing a lot of the image?

Your image is already messed up by being converted to square pixels, so you either have to crop to the top and bottom to the image area and add enough padding to the sides to make it 16:9 and then resize to 720x576 and encode for 16:9...

Or simply resize it to 720x576 with no additional cropping or padding and encode for 4:3.

[VideoFanatic]

Neither of those methods gave a picture in proportion when viewing the encoded output. If I'm wrong then please provide a script.

I tried upscaling to 720p which works. Looks in proportion:

QTGMC(Preset="Medium") 

Crop(4,44,-0,-42)  # Gives 540 x 490

nnedi3_rpow2(2, cshift="Lanczos4Resize", fwidth=1160, fheight=720)
AddBorders(60,0,60,0, $000000)

Would prefer to keep in SD but that doesn't seem to be possible unless you lose a lot of the image by cropping it.

[smrpix]

Neither of those methods gave a picture in proportion when viewing the encoded output.

Would prefer to keep in SD but that doesn't seem to be possible unless you lose a lot of the image by cropping it.

The methods I mentioned assume you are doing SD DVD mpeg2 encoding which is always non-square pixel and BR compatible. Your 1280x720 method is of course fine as well.

My second suggestion requires no deinterlacing because there is no vertical resizing.

[newpball]

Is there a way to get it in PAL or NTSC Bluray compliant format without distorting the picture and losing a lot of the image?

Sure no problem, just float the image inside 720p.
No resizing, no distortion, no loss and compliance!

[VideoFanatic]

Neither of those methods gave a picture in proportion when viewing the encoded output.

Would prefer to keep in SD but that doesn't seem to be possible unless you lose a lot of the image by cropping it.

The methods I mentioned assume you are doing SD DVD mpeg2 encoding which is always non-square pixel and BR compatible. Your 1280x720 method is of course fine as well.

My second suggestion requires no deinterlacing because there is no vertical resizing.

Or simply resize it to 720x576 with no additional cropping or padding and encode for 4:3.

Don't know how to upscale only the width but I tried this script in Hc Encoder to encode to MPEG2 and it still looked the same as if I had encoded it to h264 so what you said seems to be incorrect:

QTGMC(Preset="Medium") 

Lanczos4Resize(720,576)

SeparateFields() SelectEvery(4,0,3) Weave()

[smrpix]

Don't know how to upscale only the width but I tried this script in Hc Encoder to encode to MPEG2 and it still looked the same as if I had encoded it to h264 so what you said seems to be incorrect:

QTGMC(Preset="Medium") 

Lanczos4Resize(720,576)

SeparateFields() SelectEvery(4,0,3) Weave()

If you are viewing the 720X576 outputs as square pixel 1:1 then it will indeed "look" incorrect -- as will every DVD ever made. PAL square pixel would be 768x576, which is not DVD/BR legal.

For Legal DVD/BR, the first and third lines in your code snippet are unnecessary.

[VideoFanatic]

Obviously I didn't encode to 1:1. I only did that with 720p.

For 720 x 576 I encoded to 16:15 to give a 4:3 picture like I always do with 4:3 standard definition. The output looks wrong. What am I missing?

[smrpix]

Not sure what to tell you then.

Your original file plays properly for me with MPC-HC, and I've encoded it to 720x576 4:3 PAL with no playback distortion using both TMPGenc VMW5 and FFmpeg.

[Cornucopia]

If you want the AR to be as intended (14:9), cannot JUST crop but must either crop less or crop+pad, as 14:9 is not BD/DVD legal. IOW, you MUST retain some of the pillarboxing if you want the image to:
1. Not crop out valid active picture, and
2. Exhibit proper image proportions (a square shows as an actual square).

Scott

[VideoFanatic]

Not sure what to tell you then.

Your original file plays properly for me with MPC-HC, and I've encoded it to 720x576 4:3 PAL with no playback distortion using both TMPGenc VMW5 and FFmpeg.

Could you please tell me what script you used and what aspect ratio encoding setting did you use? Can you upload your encoded video please so I can take a look.

[manono]

Could you please tell me what script you used and what aspect ratio encoding setting did you use?

He already told you - just resize to 720x576 and encode as 4:3. After reading the thread I decided to download the sample, thinking there must be something peculiar about it. But there's not - it's a commonly seen broadcast resolution easily resized for DVD or Blu-Ray.

MPEG2Source("test.d2v")
LanczosResize(720,Height)

[VideoFanatic]

Not sure what to tell you then.

Your original file plays properly for me with MPC-HC, and I've encoded it to 720x576 4:3 PAL with no playback distortion using both TMPGenc VMW5 and FFmpeg.

I thought you said it plays back OK? It's in proportion but it still has large top and bottom borders.

[VideoFanatic]

Could you please tell me what script you used and what aspect ratio encoding setting did you use?

He already told you - just resize to 720x576 and encode as 4:3. After reading the thread I decided to download the sample, thinking there must be something peculiar about it. But there's not - it's a commonly seen broadcast resolution easily resized for DVD or Blu-Ray.

MPEG2Source("test.d2v")
LanczosResize(720,Height)

How's it easily resized for DVD? Your sample plays in proportion but it has large borders on the top and bottom.

[gonca]

It is resized for DVD. The "large borders on the top and bottom" are necessary to maintain proper AR.

[_Al_]

At this point if you know that 720,576 is 4/3 DVD size, which is a huge help, you can just push a bit further. You know that 768x576 fixes resolution to square pixel from DVD. So you resize to that 768x576 instead of 720,576 and then you just crop it to get rid of borders, like crop(4,40,-4,-40), so your scrit could be:

MPEG2Source("test.d2v")
LanczosResize(768,Height)
crop(4,40,-4,-40)

to get some square pixel for H.264 encoding (providing deinterlace os ivtc or whatever would be needed, or do it first place with dgindex, not sure).
But this is NOT Blu-Ray resolution or not Blu-Ray compliant, so not sure what are you trying to get now.

[VideoFanatic]

It is resized for DVD. The "large borders on the top and bottom" are necessary to maintain proper AR.

Well I did say in my OP that I wanted to know how to remove the top and bottom borders but still keep it in proportion. I thought that's what you guys managed to do. So it looks like the only way to completely remove the top and bottom borders and keep it in proportion is to upscale to 720p as I said in post 8.

[manono]

Well I did say in my OP that I wanted to know how to remove the top and bottom borders but still keep it in proportion.

You do realize, don't you, that you either have to have black bars somewhere, or you have to cut into the active video, in order to keep the aspect ratio (for DVD and SD Blu-Ray, anyway)? How about pillarbars? Do you like them any better? Here it is as a 16:9 video with pillarbars.

MPEG2Source("test.d2v")
Yadif(Mode=1)
Crop(4,42,-4,-42)
LanczosResize(608,576)###Would use NNEDI3_RPOW2 if I was serious about this
AddBorders(56,0,56,0)
SeparateFields()
SelectEvery(4,0,3)
Weave()

[VideoFanatic]

Thanks very much. That works perfectly. I'd never have figured that out myself!

Just one thing though. It doesn't look too good with the interlacing artifacts. Tried QTGMC(Preset="Slower") instead of Yadif and tried NNedi3_RPOW2 and picture is improved but you still get the interlacing. Is there any way to fix it apart from upscaling to 720p?

Also is there a way to fix the pixellated junk in the background?

[manono]

It doesn't look too good with the interlacing artifacts.

It's interlaced. Whether or not there are 'interlacing artifacts' and what kind is entirely dependent on the deinterlacer used. TV deinterlacers are pretty good these days. I don't think I'd trust the ones used by whatever software player you're using to test with.

Is there any way to fix it apart from upscaling to 720p?

Not really. You can deinterlace with QTGMC.SelectEven/Odd if you like and turn it into a 25fps progressive video (to be encoded as interlaced), but I don't think I'd recommend it. Of course, 720x576 50fps isn't allowed for either PAL DVD or for Blu-Ray.

[VideoFanatic]

I was using MPC-HC. I've never seen interlacing in it before. Played it back on my PS3 and no interlacing so you were right. Thanks

Do you know if there's a way to fix the pixellated junk?

For future reference did I get the dimensions correct for converting to 720p?

Crop(4,44,-0,-42)  # Gives 540 x 490
nnedi3_rpow2(2, cshift="Lanczos4Resize", fwidth=1160, fheight=720)
AddBorders(60,0,60,0, $000000)

Just wondering how you figured out the 576i dimensions of the following:

Crop(4,42,-4,-42)
nnedi3_rpow2(2, cshift="Spline36Resize", fwidth=608, fheight=576)
AddBorders(56,0,56,0)

Is it just guess work until it looks right or is there a way to figure out the correct dimensions?

[manono]

I was using MPC-HC.

I use MPC-HC also, and keep the deinterlacing turned off so I can study my sources more easily. You mentioned not seeing interlacing before so I wondered if I forgot to encode the sample as interlaced. After checking, it's as it should be. I don't know why you've not seen interlacing before but you did with my reencoded sample.

Do you know if there's a way to fix the pixellated junk?

I don't know what you mean, but I haven't really studied the results. Upscaling, no matter how well, can result in problems. Maybe that's it. Upscaling to 720p (if that's where you're noticing the most 'pixellation') is too much, in my opinion, since you're more than doubling the width. But then, I've made plenty of DVDs from VCD sources, so who am I to judge?

For future reference did I get the dimensions correct for converting to 720p?

It kind of depends if 544x576 is the equivalent of 720x576 or 704x576, and also if you're supposed to use ITU resizing or not. I just don't know. For the 720p I used 720x544 and non-ITU resizing and got 1112x720 using GKnot. If you think maybe the faces are slightly too wide in yours, that could explain it. Better, of course, would be to find a ball or something else round to judge by, and then start measuring.

Just wondering how you figured out the 576i dimensions of the following

The same with the DVD resizing - 720x576 and non-ITU - this time using FitCD. I don't claim either is correct, but maybe just ballpark figures. You can study the results and see if they're like the source as far as aspect ratio goes. And that's assuming the source got it right.

[2Bdecided]

It kind of depends if 544x576 is the equivalent of 720x576 or 704x576, and also if you're supposed to use ITU resizing or not. I just don't know.

I can tell you what's correct (it's scaled by exactly 4/3, meaning 528=704, and 544 has lots of padding) but I don't think that's what this broadcaster is doing. I would just assume that, after cropping the black, you have the real 4x3 (or in this case 14x9) area.

If it was me, I would try burning the (544x576 flagged as 4x3) source to disc and see what happens. It's not DVD or BluRay compliant, but lots of players will play it as-is just fine. Most authoring software will reject it, so you need one that lets you ignore its warnings.

Cheers,
David.

[LMotlow]

The image inside the frame, after all 4 borders are removed, doesn't look like 16:9. Resize the original frame to the intended display DAR of 4:3, crop off all 4 borders,and you get a 632x408 image -- Closer to the European movie aspect ratio 1.6:1, not 16x9. There ain't no "16x9" image in this clip.

You can't have a 16:9 DAR in 704x576. DVD and BD spec say 16:9 in standard def is valid only at 720x480 (or 720x576 PAL). A 1.6:1 image won't fill a 16x9 frame, whether NTSC or PAL -- it will need side pillars to complete the NTSC or PAL 720-wide frame. After some convoluted math (I hate math!!!) for a PAL frame and a 1.6:1 image in a 16:9 DAR frame:

QTGMC(preset="medium")
Crop(4, 40, -4, -40) 
Spline36Resize(624,576).AddBorders(48,0,48,0)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()

You'll need more cleanup to correct some low bitrate artifacts in the original. Results are very similar to manono's version, give or take a couple of pixels of width. The aspect ratio of the original image I get 1.55556:1. Anybody's guess whether a few pixels either way makes much difference. Manono used some exact math (I think), I used cropping in Photoshop and a calculator for NTSC then converted it to PAL frame. Manono's image is exactly 1.5:1, mine came out to 1.54:1, a little closer to the original. Either looks OK to me, but manono is mathematically more exact at 1.5:1 depending on your druthers.

[Skiller]

It kind of depends if 544x576 is the equivalent of 720x576 or 704x576, and also if you're supposed to use ITU resizing or not. I just don't know.

I can tell you what's correct (it's scaled by exactly 4/3, meaning 528=704, and 544 has lots of padding)

I agree there 100%. In ~8 years of capturing DVB-S with lots of 544x576 I can confirm this. Sometimes I had the chance to capture something both from a 544x576 channel and at some point later at 720x576 from another channel so I could compare how those 544 were scaled, and it's always the same: 540 out of the encoded 544 pixels are supposed to be 75% of 720; likewise 528 are 75% of 704 at the same time. The 4 pixel padding (540 -> 544) is necessary because the frame size needs to be mod 16, that's the sole reason. So assuming 544 = 4:3 is in any case not correct, it should be 528 = 4:3 (ITU) or 540 = 4:3 (non-ITU)...


Here's an example.



You would have to crop 1 pixel off the left and 3 off the right side (so 4 in total) and then resize the remaining 540x576 to 720x576 to reconstruct the original size.