Bitrate for low motion

[Tafflad]

I have been digitizing family 35mm slide show .... all the pre-work now done.

35 separate mjpeg files, will be consolidated, in Sony Movie Studio and a stereo sound track added.
The files all contain some motion, but it is slide transition and some Ken Burns style slow speed 'pan & zoom', that is the limit of the motion.

How many minutes of video & audio should I aim to be putting on a Blu-ray disc, this will be 1920x1080, 50i

I looked at Render options in Sony Movie Studio and for the MainConcept Blu-ray render (video only) .......... at 1920 x 1080, 50i it gives a 25Mbps video stream with Max 30Mbps, avg 25 Mbps, min 20Mbs


Should I leave these at default, or and if so how many minutes of play time should I expect .... I have seen 135 min quoted on some posts.

[johns0]

Use a bitrate calculator here and figure what you need,for your type of video you can easily get 135 minutes on a 25gb blu-ray disc at 27mbps,with very slow motion you can even fit 4 hours at 14mbps and get very good quality as long as the source is very good.

[Tafflad]

Thnx ...is there a table of what bitrates should be used for various video types?
Normal, high motion, little motion etc.
Also is it better to use VBR 2-pass as I would for non-HD video.

[_Al_]

This is exactly the case, textbook example, besides computer screen capture, for using CRF method of encoding. Not knowing WHAT bitrate it is needed but guessing it could be much less then for usual live video.

Because Sony does not offer CRF, you test it outside of their software and then encode to average, 2pass, using average bitrate getting from CRF results.

For non Blu-Ray content just make 1920x1080, 50p. But 720p50 is widely accepted today, I'd consider that as a form of delivery as well. Because those scans are nicely progressive anyway, you can generate any frames per second you want while panning. It is being generated by software. But for myself I'd generated 1920x1080p50. Sure it depends on what resolution was captured, I'm guessing it is ok.

[Tafflad]

You lost me on 'CRF' what is that ? ... and how /where do I use it to test to get the results.

My intent is a BluRay 1920x1080, 5oi for the master disc and for personal use, I will re-run project changing aspect ratio to DVD and create DVD compliant discs for family members.

[_Al_]

Not sure if Movie Studio has Sony YUV export, that's export without any loss so you export one minute for example , some representative sample, then use Handbrake using constant quality , choose 18 or better 17. You get certain volume. For example 60MB. So :
60MB/60s=1MB/s
1MB/s *8000 = 8000kbps=would be 8000000 average bitrate for that 2pass setiings like you'd put down in Vegas.
That value in bold after calculation is what you ask for, bitrate that you need. Could be even higher because x264 seem to be better encoder than Mainconcept in Vegas.

And I forgot also,
because you want to put it on Blu-Ray (25GB) knowing that 2pass average bitrate, you can get your max time running also.
25GB=209715200 kbits
209715200kbits / 8000kbits/s = 26214s = 436min
Those minutes are a bit too much because I doubt that you can burn all 25GB on BD, perhaps less or just to be safe

[Tafflad]

Seems quite complex way to find out the optimum Bitrate ... but think I follow what you said.
However unsure if I can output as Lossless - never come across such an option (so far)
I'll ask on Sony forum.

By the way what does CRF stand for ? tried Google. loads of options, but none to do with video.

[_Al_]

using constant quality , choose 18 or better 17

Besides CBR (Constant bitrate) and 1pass or 2pass VBR (Variable bitrate) encoding, those are available in Vegas, there is also Constant Quality encoding. It is in Handbrake for example. Constant Quality encoding devides into two: CRF (Constant Rate Factor) and Constant Quantizer encoding. To use Constant quantizer makes not much sense, I hope Handbrake uses CRF though.

So CRF is Constant Quality encoding. You set quality - quantizer, as I mentioned you might try 18 or 17 and encoder makes sure that quality is encoded. So you do not choose bitrate, encoder chooses it for you. This is the only way how to find out what bitrate your video needs and still be sane. Because using 2pass VBR you'd never get it right, at least in decent time.

Why it is not in common videoeditors? Because they are videoeditors, not encoders, and they use dumb-down Mainconcept encoder. Sony avc encoder does not use Constant Quality either. It is the think of the past, kind of.

You should find Sony YUV template export within avi exports, Video for Windows avi, not sure how it is marked at Movie Studio, you get large avi file.

That mentioned method is actually very fast and accurate, because testing it with 2pass VBR yourself, you could do that the whole day, testing, and you might still not get it accurately. Think of it, you encode to certain quality, not bitrate. To encode to bitrate is a nonsense from the past for regular home user, except you really need to encode to certain space. But that is not your concern because you are very flexible, you need to deliver quality and not to waste bitrate and you do not care what room you have, because you have enough room. You get that CRF number and use it all the time. You encode 1pass only, not 2pass, Constant Quality encoding is 1pass only, it just gets easier.

[Tafflad]

Thanks for the explanation .... just created a 60 sec sample ........... but I don't have any option for avi export
I have the following options for 1920 x 1080 frame size:

SONY AVC/MVC (mp4, m2ts, avc) 1920x1080, 50i, MP4 YUV 15fps in either 10 or 16Mbps video stream
or
MainConcept AVC/AAC (mp4, avc) 1980 x 1080p, YUV 12Mps
or
MainConcept MPEG-2 (mp4, m2v, m2t, avc) 1920x1080 25fps, YUV 25Mbps video stream selectable MPEG-2 or HDV

[_Al_]

Hard to believe that they god rid of avi export, like DV avi, or wmv for example as well, it should be there somewhere, this is kind of a must, use Vegas help,

when you find it, even if it is not there (Sony YUV) you can install any lossless like utvideo, lagarith and after restarting Vegas you should find those codecs there and export it instead of that Sony YUV

[Tafflad]

I have Lagartith codec intalled on PC ... but have no idea how I would use it in Sony Movie Studio .. does not sow up in 'Render As' optuions.


You also mentioned WMV, this does exist ... but I did not list this as it does not support 1920 x 1080

[_Al_]

Project/Make movie
select: Save it to my hardrive
click Advanced option TAB !
select Video for Windows and on the right side you have some YUV export options (be prepared to get large files) or choose your lossless you had installed

the way Vegas works you can overwrite those values that are set as a default in those templates, so you can create another export template (after saving it), so for example you select MainConcept avc/aac - Interned HD 1080p template and select profile High and also changing frame rate to double frame rate, like 50.000 and Vegas would render that. So Vegas Studio, that cheapest version renders to 50p or 59.94p as well, even if you do not see it anywhere within templates,

same with that wmv export, you find Windows Media Video V11 on the left and then choose that 6.7 Mbps HD-1080 25p on the right, but you customize it, to whatever you like, giving it 1920x1080 resolution 50p frame rate etc.

of course it perhaps would not let you modify Blu-Ray template because of specs, I had not try it just guessing ... edit: just tested it trying to export 50p with blu-ray 50i template, and it rendered 50p avc stream, so even Blu-Ray template you can change,...it is highly versatile ... of course 1920x1080 50p is not Blu-Ray stream, you would not author Blu-Ray 1920x1080 and with 50p, just mentioning this ... you could export those 50p and perhaps put it on Blu-Ray as a data, your player might play it too. I'd avoid creating 50i, but that is your choice.

last year I think I had a problem getting 50p or 59.94p out of that cheapest Vegas studio version, but not now ...
frame server works also,..., lots of action for software that cheap ... it usually gets lower ratings (movie studio) because it does not have those wizzards with pretty colors etc. for total beginners, ..., people do not bother to read manuals today

[Tafflad]

Thnaks for template information.

On file not being Blu-ray compliant, my previous advice was to use 1920 x 1080, 50i as this is Blu-ray compliant it creates the European standard 1920 x 1080 25 fps from it.

The Blu-ray templates provides are
Sony ... and for me that would be 1920x1080, 50i this produces a .avc file

MainConcept .. again 1920x1080, 50i this produces an .m2v file

Mediinfo files for both attched.

I know on its own neither are full Blu-ray, but going on Sony notes, either can be dropped into DVD architect along with appropriate audio stream to create standards compliant Blu-ray disc.

[_Al_]

yes , you need 1920x1080 50i for authoring Blu-Ray in DVD Architect,

when creating Blu-Ray structure make sure, DVD Architect does not encode those streams again.

[Tafflad]

Project/Make movie
select: Save it to my hardrive
click Advanced option TAB !
select Video for Windows and on the right side you have some YUV export options (be prepared to get large files) or choose your lossless you had installed

OK spent some time finishing all the videos in Movie Studio, so ready to Render them.

Tried your option above .... there is no 'advanced' tab ... if I press the 'make movie' button and select 'save to my hard drive'
The window that opens has no 'advanced' tab.

The screen grab below appears the moment I select 'save to my hard drive' ... I have not navigated to any render template or similar.



See this screen grab:

[_Al_]

so you already are in advanced wizzard,
I can see Video for Windows there ... Video for Windows is the objective here ... I downloaded latest Studio, perhaps it is a bit different interface, You choose format under Video for Windows. If there is no codec we discussed here, you choose one, and then under customizing template you find your format/codec next to Video format, they should all be there, what is available in your PC, Video for Windows formats ...

[Tafflad]

Al ... Tried following the gist of what you were describing rather than exact steps .. (maybe they changed some names)

So instead of looking for an advanced tab .. (see above post)
I navigated through templates to Video for Windws (*.AVI)
Selected ‘HD 1080-50i YUV’
And then clicked on ‘Customize template’ and then chose Lagarith …
Which is what I think you were intending me to get to.

Rendered with Lagartith -
So the 60sec file is 2.33GB ,,, following your formula
2330/60 = 38.33 MBs
38.33 * 8000 = 310,666 which seems an enormous figure ….. so must be misunderstanding something.


Obviously trying to get to what should be ideal figures for Maxc/Avh/Min .... in below template:

[DB83]

^^ Pardon the interruption but why 'Video For Windows' ?

The OP wants Blu Ray source files. You already stated, quite correctly, that DVDA should not want to re-encode again but that dialog suggests avi and that is not Blu Ray ready.

[Tafflad]

Hi DB3 .... what I am trying to get to is to understand what bitrate settings I should be using in the MainConcept MPEG-2 Max/Avg/Min settings (above)
Wouldn't actually be encoding the video with Lagarith

I understood this step with VFW was purely to calculate the numbers for optimal quality bit rate (why we are using Lagarith Lossless )

If I should be doing this but not with VFW then please advise.

[DB83]

Personally, I would keep it as simple as possible.

Encode your 60 second sample as above.
See it's size.
Divide 25gig/size = no of minutes available

What is unknown is the effect of the motion on your encodes. The bit rate may be too high so you end up wasting bitrate. You can experiment with lower rates. Only you can judge the final result.

[_Al_]

Of course it is gigantic in volume because it is lossless, you have only one minute, you encode that one minute with CRF 18 with handbrake, and then you get some volume. Volume/time gives you average bitrae, or use Bitrate viewer.

That average bitrate is the bitrate you asking for and nobody could give you answer, because we do not know your video.

So you encode your Bluray in Vegas 2pass with THAT average bitrate, maybe a bit higher just to be sure. For example average is going to be 10000kbps so you use 11000 or 12000.

[_Al_]

What is unknown is the effect of the motion on your encodes. The bit rate may be too high so you end up wasting bitrate. You can experiment with lower rates. Only you can judge the final result.

The whole point of what we are trying to do here is to get that mystique, proper average bitrate for his type of video.

[DB83]

^^ Ok. But that intermediate step - creating the lossless avi - just IMO complicates the task.

Cut out the middle-man and just experiment with yer actual BD encodes. The transitions are quite likely to eat up bitrate to keep them smooth so it is better to go high.

I know I contributed to my friend's other thread and I am concerned that he might have gone about the whole project (encoding aside) the wrong way.

Maybe Rick would like to upload that 60 sec sample here for additional comment.

[Tafflad]

Ooops ... missed that important step - and I had previously downloaded handbrake to do this

OK original 60 sec Lagartith file 2.33GB
Put into Handbrake, selected codec as MPEG-2 and set constant quality to 18.
Resultant file MPEG2 in MP4 container is 7.4MB now using the formula

7.4 /60 = 0.1233 MBs
0.1233 * 8000 = 987 bps

So is that the number for Max or Avg or Min ?

(or have I still got it wrong)

[DB83]

Just check the bitrate in mediainfo. Much quicker than doing maths.

[Tafflad]

^^ Ok. But that intermediate step - creating the lossless avi - just IMO complicates the task.

Cut out the middle-man and just experiment with yer actual BD encodes. The transitions are quite likely to eat up bitrate to keep them smooth so it is better to go high.

I know I contributed to my friend's other thread and I am concerned that he might have gone about the whole project (encoding aside) the wrong way.

Maybe Rick would like to upload that 60 sec sample here for additional comment.

Just to explain where I am .... I have created a numbers of different video files ... MJPEG 1920x1080, 50i

Having then edited in movie studio I have each saved as projects ready for render.
This initial 1st pass is for a Blu-ray disc ..... only remaining step is to figure out the Bitrate values for the MPEG-2 renders .

The default 1920 x 1080, 501 template has:
Max rate 30,000,000 bps
avg rate 25,000,000 bps
min rate 20,000,000 bps

I could of course leave at that ...... just trying to find out if optimum for limited motion slide show ............ I know you advocate .. play & see, just thought there may be a quicker route to get to the figures.

I can't upload the sample as its 2.33GB or did you mean the MJPEG that is still 685MB


All the various files will then be built up in DVD Architect into a menu driven disc and burned from there.

[Tafflad]

Just check the bitrate in mediainfo. Much quicker than doing maths.

Interesting - the figures don't match ...
In Mediainfo it gives 1033 kbps

[DB83]

I meant the m2v file that vegas will create. As long as its under 100 meg.

Could you not encode direct to m2v ?. That encoding from mjpeg could lose you quality.

[DB83]

Just check the bitrate in mediainfo. Much quicker than doing maths.

Interesting - the figures don't match ...
In Mediainfo it gives 1033 kbps

Well something has gone wrong since that is much too low for dvd let alone Blu Ray.

BTW what happened to that program you bought ? Couldn't you make the Blu Ray direct from that ?

[_Al_]

Handbrake encodes mpeg2 or H264? You want to get H.264.

You can upload that video you encoded in Handbrake, we know you set quality to 18, those 7.4 MB or so. Just to be sure you encoded H.264 and with right resolution.

Technically you should encode Blu-Ray specs in that handbrake, but I thing it is not going to be easy for you to set all those parametrs correctly. So nevermind, boosting that calculated bitrate a bit would take care of it.

Forget about MediaInfo, calculate it or use Bitrate Viewer for this sort of things.

DB83 - for Christ sake , we are trying to get proper and lowest bitare for his video, that was his original question, he is almost there, of course he will use his Vegas to render his Blu-Ray stream there.