Starting out backing up VHS, some questions...

[flight]

Hello everyone,

I'm just starting out on my journey to try to get the best possible capture of some old cassettes and have a few questions for the forum:

Operating system: From reading a few posts I guess Windows is what most people are using here. I can get any version of Windows because I have an MSDN subscription, but I prefer (and currently run) Linux. I also have a reasonably up-to-date Mac book with 6 cores. I'd be running the captures on a Ryzen 3700X if I used Windows/Linux. Is it a no-brainer to use Windows for capturing or does it have some caveats, such as going off to do a bunch of updates mid-capture ... or something. Any advice appreciated.

Capture device: I've collected a few now: Hauppuage live usb-2, couple of different USB easy-cap type adapters only one of which is recognised by Linux. I initially thought the Hauppauge would be best until I discovered that it didn't have any Linux drivers at all and under Windows it didn't seem to capture anything other than mpeg2 due to software limitations (it didn't work with VirtualDub IIRC), but I've noticed they seem to have recently got some linux drivers, and perhaps they now give the right Windows drivers for uncompressed capture (see my next point).

Type of capture: All I'm trying to do here is capture the best archival video as the source material is important to me, I don't care about formats, don't need it playable on anything other than a computer, and don't really care how much space it takes. I'd like to find a reasonably future-proof way of storing both losslessly compressed fields and perhaps do a bit of averaging over a couple of play-throughs. Last time I checked this stuff was state-of-the-art, but perhaps now someone has figured out how to do it (and more importantly written it up!!) always hoping?

My early attempts at capturing using gstreamer and/or ffmpeg have got me thoroughly confused about Linux sound (modern computers have too many sound devices already without adding another one in a capture device) and I've been unable to capture audio via the easy-cap. Is this a dead-loss and should I just capture via the motherboard audio input jack (using a phono-jack adapter) and are there any down-sides to doing it like this such as worse sync or something?

Finally, about the hardware I have a Panasonic NV-FJ780 which (according to some adverts) is S-VHS, but the manual doesn't say that. It has phono composite and scart output. I always felt scart was somehow lower quality than phono for video, but then the scart may carry S-video, and also appears to be gold-plated connectors, fully wired and expensive looking. Can I assume a VCR has no s-video output if there's no s-video connector, and which output should I use?

Also, what's the deal with TBC? I've a panasonic DMR-E50 DVD recorder which I understand has a TBC and I could put it in the capture path, but is it needed with modern software/hardware capture solutions such as the easy-cap? Will it degrade the signal?

thanks and sorry if these are 'dumb' questions!

regards,
Simon.

[lordsmurf]

I prefer Linux for many things, but it really sucks for video capturing, almost no options for hardware or software. At best, just some sorta-kinda-works (but not really) methods. You're making it harder than it needs be, by insisting on Linux.

WinXP and Win7 are the best two OS for capturing. The choice of OS depends on the capture cards being used. Some are OS-locked (example: ATI AIW), others just work best in certain OS.

Easycap is a dead-end, junk card, bad captures.
I'm not a fan of that exact Hauppauge Live2, too variable.

TBC is required.
The E50 is too old, does not have TBC functionality.
The ES10/15 have basic line TBCs that work on passthrough, but is both strong AND crippled, so it has a fail rate. Though stronger, able to fix tearing, it's not as overall robust and nearly error-free as JVC/Panasonic S-VHS VCR TBCs. It has a non-TBC frame sync pairedwith line TBC. It's what I refer to as a TBC(ish), and the ES10/15 alone is very minimalist, still no frame correction (which is added by adding a DVK).
Anything that process video has the ability to degrade quality, but it depends on factor. The Es10/15 has downsides, between posterization, aggressive NR that cannot be turned off (the "off" is merely low, "on" is high), and PAL luma issues. But it's also not a true TBC, just a TBC(ish).

NV-FJ780 is not S-VHS. The "Super Drive" is just SQPB, plays S-VHS at degraded VHS quality. What you want is S-VHS deck for playing VHS, this is backwards.

[flight]

@lordsmurf Thanks for typing that extremely informative post. It's bad news for me all round it seems, but good to know.

[johnmeyer]

Lordsmurf's advice is excellent, but it doesn't really help you get going. My recommendation is to try capturing 5-10 minutes of footage using your existing equipment. If you have more than one capture device, try each one, or at least the ones you think are most likely to produce a decent capture. Windows XP (or 7) is going to be a lot easier than Linux (because of the driver issues), so if you can figure out how to boot to Windows, I'd do that. Compare the captures and use the one which produces the best result.

You don't necessarily need all the things you'd find in the "ultimate" capture setup. In particular, if your tapes are in great condition, you may find that a TBC doesn't make much difference. Don't get me wrong, you do want one if you can get it, but since many of them don't do much (not all TBC circuits work the same) it isn't worth moving heaven and earth to get one unless you notice flagging at the top of the screen, wobbly vertical lines, squiggly edges, i.e., things which a TBC can fix. If you have those, then you must get a unit which has a decent TBC.

So, the main point of my post is that you should get started with what you have.

Work like this doesn't get finished unless you start.

[lordsmurf]

Lordsmurf's advice is excellent, but it doesn't really help you get going.

How do you "get going" when you have the wrong tools?

My recommendation is to try capturing 5-10 minutes of footage using your existing equipment.

How? He's already hitting the known roadblocks trying to capture with a non-video OS.

You don't necessarily need all the things you'd find in the "ultimate" capture setup.

Having an extremely basic line TBC is not "fancy" or "ultimate". Your statement is ridiculous.

In particular, if your tapes are in great condition, you may find that a TBC doesn't make much difference.

Due to how VHS technology functions, on all VCRs, nonsense. There's no magical "great condition" to a VHS tape. Even the best VHS tape will have both quality and stability problems (aka, including not being able to capture at all) without a TBC in a workflow.

Don't get me wrong, you do want one if you can get it,

eBay, $125 average cost. If that's "too expensive" for a hobby, just quit now. Video is an insanely cheap hobby, even something like stamp collecting costs more.

but since many of them don't do much (not all TBC circuits work the same)

"Don't do much"? WTF? No.
There is line TBC, and frame TBC, and each has a separate (and ideally complementary) function.
Line cleans the image, frame cleans the signal, you need both.
A bare minimum item is the ES10/15, which is a strong+crippled line TBC with a non-TBC frame sync. It's not a true TBC, so it still passes issues, but it's a hell of a lot better that nothing at all.

it isn't worth moving heaven and earth to get one unless you notice flagging at the top of the screen, wobbly vertical lines, squiggly edges, i.e., things which a TBC can fix. If you have those, then you must get a unit which has a decent TBC.

All VHS video has some % of wiggling and errant noises, which hamper capturing and latter compression to watchable formats. And no, software can't magically filter out everything, hardware is required for some corrections.

You of all people should know this, as you're a whiz at Avisynth. You're forte is film, but some of your scripting is very useful (after modifications) to analog sources.

you should get started with what you have.

No! Get the right tools. Don't start slapping at a nail, because all your have available is a screwdriver or a spork. Get a hammer! I fail to comprehend why this is so hard, why some folks are so stubborn about acquiring the correct tools to do a good job. (As morbid as an analogy as this is, perhaps this is why we have buildings that collapse? Just do a half-ass job with whatever is lying around? Is that who we are as a society now?)

Work like this doesn't get finished unless you start.

And it shouldn't start until you get the tools needed for it. Not just whatever random stuff that you want -- and it's ALWAYS due to being cheap or lazy. So don't be cheap and lazy. If it's worth doing, isn't it worth doing at least minimally well? I'm not advocating you spend $10k and get a PH.D in video. But I do advocate some self-education and a non-ridiculous budget (and not based on random pulled-from-ass numbers).

If my reply here seems harsh, you must understand that I'm getting tired of seeing these "I don't need no TBC" type posts this year (something that is new, and rarely happened in decades past), which quite frankly reminds me of the "I don't need no mask/vaccine" mentality. It's completely divorced from reality. I sometimes wonder if it's the same sort of contrarians that just want to counter everything, who have crawled out of the woodwork. And I never expected this from you, johnmeyer, you should know better by now.

[flight]

Yes, I understand I shouldn't use Linux, this has been my experience in the past as well. I was just checking to confirm. My experience has been that even for supported capture devices I can't seem to set all the right parameters, for instance I couldn't set the correct PAL resolution for my easycap, even though when I viewed the video with gstreamer it looked OK.

I was initially following this guide: https://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues/2019/219/File-Conversion
But I was unable to sort out the audio capture so got obscure errors from gstreamer. It seems like a really great bit of software, if only I had a couple of weeks free to figure out how to drive it. If I can get better forum support for virtualdub then that'll be the one for me, I'm not going to be stubborn on this one!

There looks to be an ES10 on Ebay for £1, so well within budget: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402675715599, maybe I can sell my E50 to recoup some of that £1 .

You talked quite a bit about TBC, but not capture devices. Do you have any advice for me about that other than not using the devices I have?

thanks!

[lollo]

You talked quite a bit about TBC, but not capture devices. Do you have any advice for me about that other than not using the devices I have?

If you have a recommended S-VHS VCR with lineTBC or a Panasonic ES10 to act like a lineTBC, and your tapes are in good conditions, the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 you own will provide excellent results.

Here some of my captures (although compressed by youtube):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1J6exEWMi4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEx3aHjov-I&t=1s

[Sharc]

Capture device: I've collected a few now: Hauppuage live usb-2, couple of different USB easy-cap type adapters only one of which is recognised by Linux. I initially thought the Hauppauge would be best until I discovered that it didn't have any Linux drivers at all and under Windows it didn't seem to capture anything other than mpeg2 due to software limitations (it didn't work with VirtualDub IIRC), but I've noticed they seem to have recently got some linux drivers, and perhaps they now give the right Windows drivers for uncompressed capture

Hauppauge USB-live2 works reasonably well here even under Windows 10, using AmarecTV for lossless capturing (Huffyuv, PAL).
My setup is VHS player -> Pana DMR-EH50 in passthrough (to remove line wiggle) -> S-video to Hauppauge USB-live2 (may require little proc-amp contrast tweaking)
Not top-notch equipment, but the result is still pretty good. My 30 year old tapes are in good condition though.
Maybe you give your Hauppauge USB-live2 a 2nd chance when you don't find anything better.

[johnmeyer]

How do you "get going" when you have the wrong tools?

He doesn't have hardware that won't work, he has hardware that isn't on the Lordsmurf approved list. There is a big difference between something that won't work at all (which is not his case) and something that is less than the ultimate.

Johnmeyer: My recommendation is to try capturing 5-10 minutes of footage using your existing equipment.

How? He's already hitting the known roadblocks trying to capture with a non-video OS.

I said "equipment," not software. I already stated that I agreed Windows would be far easier. And, just for the record, you CAN capture with Linux, but you will have fewer choices for drivers, etc.

Having an extremely basic line TBC is not "fancy" or "ultimate". Your statement is ridiculous.

Oh really? How many dozens of posts have you made over the years about "junk" and "useless" TBCs???

[rrats]

How do you "get going" when you have the wrong tools?

bro not every person needs 500 euro equipment to capture low quality vhs tapes

[johnmeyer]

bro not every person needs 500 euro equipment to capture low quality vhs tapes

That is exactly my point. For many tapes, the differences between the "ultimate" capture setup and an average kit can be fairly subtle.

I just got my prosumer Panasonic S-VHS deck completely overhauled and the guy who does it, who worked for Panasonic for years, says that the quality is now identical to the much vaunted AG-1980, something I believe, given what I know about its design.

So I now have a really good deck, but what about my capture equipment?

Well, my neighbor, a well-known Hollywood effects specialist, just gave me all his professional analog capture equipment which he no longer uses, but did use for capturing professional analog SD signals (not VHS!) back when he was doing music video work for top names in the industry. Between my restored deck and this capture equipment I should be able to produce some captures which rival the best that can be done. When I get that working, I plan to capture using that deck and equipment, and then do the same capture on the same tapes, using lesser equipment, and then post the results.

It should be interesting.

I won't get to this until the summer is over, however, because I'm too busy right now (just re-built a bunch of 1950s Dynaco tube amps for a friend, as one example).

[lordsmurf]

You talked quite a bit about TBC, but not capture devices. Do you have any advice for me about that other than not using the devices I have?

The reason is because it tends to be very OS and source based. Generic suggestions aren't overly helpful. So in order to give that sort of exacting advice, more info is needed.

If you have a recommended S-VHS VCR with lineTBC or a Panasonic ES10 to act like a lineTBC, and your tapes are in good conditions, the Hauppauge USB-Live 2 you own will provide excellent results.

Maybe you give your Hauppauge USB-live2 a 2nd chance when you don't find anything better.

I agree with this. It may work, and you already have it, so no harm in trying it. Just don't be shocked if you run into driver, OS, software, AGC, etc type issues. Because this model of card was long-lived, and Hauppauge had (still has?) a bad habit of sharing model numbers/names with products that varied quite a bit. Some were more obvious, fine print revision numbers, while others were literally "crack it open and see what's inside" cards. So again, a variable card. The VC500 is the same way. It's a PITA, because you can't just say "hey, yeah, get this, works great!", as what you have and the other person have may not be 1:1.

He doesn't have hardware that won't work, he has hardware that isn't on the Lordsmurf approved list.

Being on my "approved list" (FYI, not a thing) isn't the issue. The issue is not having all the tools needed (wrong OS, old non-TBC recorder), which he has already found out for himself. So I'm flummoxed why you're arguing this. Why not insist you can run Final Cut Pro on Windows, too? Because you can!** (**Hackintosh VMs required, may work lousy if at all.)

Having an extremely basic line TBC is not "fancy" or "ultimate". Your statement is ridiculous.

Oh really? How many dozens of posts have you made over the years about "junk" and "useless" TBCs???

That's disingenuous. You dismissed TBCs entirely in your original statement. That's what is ridiculous. Now then, it is 100% true that some TBCs are worthless for consumer analog format conversions (ie, rackmounts, etc). However, because some TBCs are worthless is no reason to avoid all TBCs.

bro not every person needs 500 euro equipment to capture low quality vhs tapes

I'm not your "bro". And nobody said anything about "500 euros". However, that was exactly my point, with too many pulled-from-ass random numbers based on nothing -- and NOT ironically, always from the "I don't need no TBC!" crowd (because it's about being cheap, being a contrarian, and nothing else).

An intelligent person will ascertain
- what you have (source tapes, existing gear, computers, software, etc),
- what you need (ie the proper tools, VCRs/cameras, TBCs, capture cards, etc)
- what gear realistically costs, where to get it, what is your sensible budget, post-project plans (resale, etc)
... and go from there. A game plan, not knee-jerk spastic buying.

the differences between the "ultimate" capture setup and an average kit can be fairly subtle.

There is no "average", far too many combinations of gear. Lots of crap, lots of good, some murky middle grounds.

Well, my neighbor, a well-known Hollywood effects specialist,

I never understand this. Most people know some sort of famous person (or infamous person). It usually means nothing. Amusingly, I've known some famous people, but didn't even realize it until years later. To me, they were just bosses, neighbors, teachers, whatever. The reason I didn't know was because they didn't care. Fame fades.

It should be interesting.

Have fun!

[rrats]

I'm not your "bro"

thats a slang

[johnmeyer]

He doesn't have hardware that won't work, he has hardware that isn't on the Lordsmurf approved list.

Being on my "approved list" (FYI, not a thing) isn't the issue.

The approved list is a thing, does exist, and many people refer to it:

Link to Lordsmurf approved VCR list

I recommend that the OP in this thread click on the link, scroll down the page, and look at the list because it is a good and very useful list, and I have no doubt those VCRs will provide better captures than some which are not on the list.

Having an extremely basic line TBC is not "fancy" or "ultimate". Your statement is ridiculous.

Oh really? How many dozens of posts have you made over the years about "junk" and "useless" TBCs???

That's disingenuous. You dismissed TBCs entirely in your original statement.

I dismissed TBCs?? You seem so intent on arguing with everyone that you are not taking the time to accurately and correctly read what is written. Here is a link to my first post in this thread where I made those comments:

johnmeyer first post in this thread.

And, here is what I actually said:

... it isn't worth moving heaven and earth to get one unless you notice flagging at the top of the screen, wobbly vertical lines, squiggly edges, i.e., things which a TBC can fix. If you have those, then you must get a unit which has a decent TBC. [emphasis added].

In other words, if you don't have a problem that a TBC can fix, then you don't need one (duh!), but if you do have those problems then "you must get a unit which has a decent TBC."

You are making up reasons to argue! The plain fact is that I simply did not "dismiss TBCs entirely."

Well, my neighbor, a well-known Hollywood effects specialist,

I never understand this. Most people know some sort of famous person (or infamous person). It usually means nothing. Amusingly, I've known some famous people, but didn't even realize it until years later. To me, they were just bosses, neighbors, teachers, whatever. The reason I didn't know was because they didn't care. Fame fades.

Why did you even bother to make this comment?? You imply that I was trying to aggrandize myself by saying I associate with famous people. However, unlike you I don't know famous people, so I was was not doing that.

More importantly, I never said "famous;" I said "well-known." There is a huge difference. I happen to have a second neighbor who also was in the special effects business for theatrical movies. Neither knew the other was living in the area, but when I asked one about the other, they both instantly knew who the person was.

That is "well known" which, as you can see by my quote above, is the phrase I used.

I could give you their names and I 100% guarantee you would not have heard of either of them because they are not famous.

As another example, "Lordsmurf" is well-known, but you are not famous.

Finally, the only reason I mentioned my friend's résumé is to point out that I'm pretty sure I now have capture equipment that is about as far up the food chain as is possible.

[lordsmurf]

approved VCR list

"Approved" isn't the same as Recommended, which is what that is. But if you deviate from the recommendations, you'll normally run into problems. It depends on multiple factors.

]... it isn't worth moving heaven and earth to get one unless you notice flagging at the top of the screen, wobbly vertical lines, squiggly edges, i.e., things which a TBC can fix. [
In other words, if you don't have a problem that a TBC can fix, then you don't need one (duh!), but if you do have those problems then [I]"you must get a unit which has a decent TBC."

Wait, what?
Line TBCs fix visual errors (mostly), while frame TBCs fix non-visual errors (mostly).
So just because you can't "see" an error doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and that it won't cause ingest problems. And the #1 ingest issue is loss of audio sync, due to dropped frames, due to no TBC.
This is VHS, and these flaws are inherent to the format. So "not needing" a TBC really is not a thing. The best VHS tape will have issues.

Finally, the only reason I mentioned my friend's résumé is to point out that I'm pretty sure I now have capture equipment that is about as far up the food chain as is possible.

Hopefully. But sadly, I've found it's not necessarily the case. Just see what you get, models and conditions.
Video has so many sub-niches. You and I are a good example of this. You attack consumer films, and do amazing work with it. And I do the consumer tapes. Our skills diverge quite a bit, though there is some overlap when it comes to the Avisynth.

[hiptune]

You are making up reasons to argue! The plain fact is that I simply did not "dismiss TBCs entirely."

Why did you even bother to make this comment?? You imply that I was trying to aggrandize myself by saying I associate with famous people. However, unlike you I don't know famous people, so I was was not doing that.

More importantly, I never said "famous;" I said "well-known." There is a huge difference. I happen to have a second neighbor who also was in the special effects business for theatrical movies. Neither knew the other was living in the area, but when I asked one about the other, they both instantly knew who the person was.

Lordsmirf has been at this a long time and gained some knowledge, but you can easily see that some bitterness has set in. Liking to argue and seeing things too black and white. Spending too many years at this with perhaps not enough payoff. That can do it to you.

[servese]

I think that a lot of you are treating lordsmurf extremely unfairly. It's a simple fact that virtually all VHS captures will look shithouse if you don't have any form of line TBC in your capture chain. For instance, look at this sample from when I just started out capturing (only 5 months ago!)

Try telling me with a straight face that you'd consider that watchable.

Also, DVD recorders with TBC-like functionality are very cheap outside of the US. If you look back earlier in the thread, the OP mentions that he or she found a panasonic DMR-ES10 for one pound! Here in Australia it's easy to find a DVD recorder suitable for passthrough for fewer than 50 AUD on gumtree or at cashconverters.

[agisthos]

Here is how I did great VHS backups without large expense, and no frame drops that required external TBC hardware.

Get an Avermedia CE310B SD capture card - Aliexpress has them for about $65 USD.
In my research this is the most recent dedicated SD capture card manufactured. Everything else seems to be for HD and 4k e.t.c or else is rubbish USB dongles.

Source is the recommended JVC with TBC ON, S-Video out into that Avermedia Pcie card (you will need $200-300 to get a decent VCR unit on ebay).
I have now done 30 or so VHS captures, most without dropping a frame, or when it does only 1 or 2 frames over an hour of footage.

You need a dedicated PC for the capturing, as it seems just using the PC as you capture will cause more dropped frames.

So if you can leave the PC alone as it captures, you get rock solid captures with that Avermedia card. I also purchased the Panasonic ES10 and so far have not even had to open the box to use it because everything has worked so well.

All my experience is with PAL home recorded video, and perhaps NTSC hardware has other issues we do not have, I just am not experiencing the need for external TBC as many here do (but of course the VCR TBC is definitely required). And its possible I have not come across bad tapes, as I only have done about 35 so far.

[Alwyn]

For instance, look at this sample from when I just started out capturing (only 5 months ago!)

Try telling me with a straight face that you'd consider that watchable.

You're being a bit disingenuous there. We don't know what VCR you used, nor the cabling, capture card/stick and capture codec, and critically, how it was improved by a line and frame TBC. How about posting that tape again now you know what you're doing with great gear so newbys can see the difference?

Here in Australia it's easy to find a DVD recorder suitable for passthrough for fewer than 50 AUD on gumtree or at cashconverters.

This is misleading. According to LS, only some DVD recorders work at passthrough. I know that my LG299 does not do anything line TBC-wise. If you're going to make sweeping statements like that, I suggest you nominate specific model numbers so enthusiastic but naive newbys don't buy something that doesn't do it. And you certainly can't get an ES-15 in Australia for "one pound".

[servese]

That's fair, I should've pointed out specific recorders that are commonly available in Australia. I've found that Panasonic models from the DRM-EH* line are common here. Sony RDR-HXD8** recorders are also quite common. It usually takes a bit of digging to find good deals. Often you have to use vague search terms like "Sony DVD recorder" instead of specific model numbers if you want to find anything. The extra bit of effort is definitely worth the savings you get from not getting a recorder shipped over from america. Just a few weeks ago I picked up a Sony RDR-HXD870 for 40 dollars off gumtree.

And regarding the sample, it was definitely one made using some not very good hardware and software as I didn't know what I was doing at the time. My point still stands though and I will re-capture that same bit with and without a DVD recorder, using much better equipment (non-TBC JVC S-VHS, virtualdub.)

Edited to add: A good strategy for finding DVD recorders is to search "Panasonic Recorder" on Gumtree, set "Sort by" to "Price Low>High", and look through the listings one-by-one, looking for model numbers in each listings' pictures. Search for the model number on digitalfaq and videohelp, followed by the terms "TBC" or "passthrough". Write down any promising models you find. Repeat but with "Sony Recorder" instead of "Panasonic recorder" as your search term. Once you've had a good look, just choose the most convient/affordable option from the list of good options you just made.